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THE END TO AFK MINING?

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Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#101 - 2013-12-11 15:27:29 UTC
Jia Cato wrote:
How about make mining an interactive experience like combat or exploration, instead of turning it into a hyper-borefest of single click spam.

I'd like mining a lot more if you used your mining laser at the magical scifi mining-frequency on the asteroid which would melt the waste bits away and thus cracking the asteroid into couple of pieces in a small radius around the original point, melting those smaller rocks again would crack open into ore clusters.


I was about to say,"this sounds even mORE tedious than current minging"

But then you said

Jia Cato wrote:
the jerb


And realised that you had a Heart of Gold



"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Chopper Rollins
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#102 - 2013-12-11 15:38:45 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Chopper Rollins wrote:
pgc is not a thing, you want more content, go create it.


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_wuSqJG5bIKE/TMwKVaXkenI/AAAAAAAAAwU/fxeyUO5S2JE/s1600/circular-reasoning11.jpg


HOHO just being a smart alec?
I was objecting to the tendentious claims made in a previous post about who was generating more pgc than anyone else. Even the term pgc as a metric is just stupid and leads to bad places. My comment stands, don't bother measuring who's generating more content than anyone else, and don't try to convince me punching on weak targets is done out of any concern for content.


Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
#103 - 2013-12-11 15:40:04 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

The "Afk Cloaker" is generating content. No one knows if he's really afk or not, No one knows if he has a cyno or not. his presence is invoking a reaction (dock up,safe up, or refit to fight/survive) And the AFK cloaker is literally altering market and monetary system behaviors.

Last week a group of cloakers in stealth bombers blanketed my alliances "home" constellation, forcing us to either fit to fight/run (which tanks your isk per hour) or do something else (to which many of us luled, because npc 0.0 missions in curse or delve are very tasty and impossible to "afk cloak"). No one "likes" it when it happens to them, but it's not in any way the same as afk mining.



I would tend to agree which is why I wrote that it was less clear. But one could make a similar argument that afk miners are also "generating content" by simply being undocked and providing opportunities to other players. Theoretically, all one need do to contribute to pgc is something other than ship spinning. So every undocked activity has to be judged on its own merits and each activity contributes more/less to pgc than something else presumably. But I'd argue that in the case of the null sec afk cloaker, pgc is generated as much from a structural manifestation of the game, than any effort expended by the afk player. If he's really afk, he isn't even there. But yes, it's clear that because his presence influences other people's games more directly than the afk miner, I'd agree that the afk cloaker contributes more to pgc, irrespective of why. It doesn't change my overall view though. I was very careful to use the descriptor "similarly-situated" in what I wrote, as I still hold that given any two players in the same system, one afk, and one not, if the one present is doing anything at all, even just chatting with corpies, he's contributing more to pgc than the guy who isn't present.

YK
Chopper Rollins
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#104 - 2013-12-11 15:43:16 UTC
Yonis Kador wrote:
... Theoretically, all one need do to contribute to pgc is something other than ship spinning. ...



STAHP STAHP MAKE IT STAHP.

I've seen alts in stations whose presence is just as eyes. Are they contributing to pgc? More or less than an afk cloaker doing the same task.
You can't measure pgc so just STAHP.



Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#105 - 2013-12-11 15:43:37 UTC
Chopper Rollins wrote:

HOHO just being a smart alec?
I was objecting to the tendentious claims made in a previous post about who was generating more pgc than anyone else. Even the term pgc as a metric is just stupid and leads to bad places. My comment stands, don't bother measuring who's generating more content than anyone else, and don't try to convince me punching on weak targets is done out of any concern for content.



I know you were

Your statement that you cant create content so you better go create content

is stupid though.


I forgive you, even if you cant forgive yourself


Omir Is Love, and we remember Him in this, the month of His Glorious Rebirth

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Marcus Iunius Brutus
Hoborg Labs
#106 - 2013-12-11 15:51:50 UTC
I'm wondering, why people don't like AFK miners?
They crowd space and create opportunities for gankers thus create content.
Also some of them produce cheap modules that we can use (because minerals are free etc.) ;-)
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
#107 - 2013-12-11 15:59:37 UTC
Chopper Rollins wrote:
Yonis Kador wrote:
... Theoretically, all one need do to contribute to pgc is something other than ship spinning. ...



STAHP STAHP MAKE IT STAHP.

I've seen alts in stations whose presence is just as eyes. Are they contributing to pgc? More or less than an afk cloaker doing the same task.
You can't measure pgc so just STAHP.






What are you talking about? Of course you can't. We cannot measure pgc directly, no, but we can weigh the effect any given activity has on other players and thus gauge how beneficial that activity is to pgc. It's common sense that afk-anything is less-beneficial than an actively-engaged player performing the same task when pgc is influenced by player interaction more than any other factor. If you disagree that players who are afk are less capable of player interaction than those who aren't, well, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

YK
Cyber SGB
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#108 - 2013-12-11 16:04:04 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Cyber SGB wrote:


Good lord, I think I'm becoming one of "those" forum people. Sad


Welcome

You have taken my place

Now I can escape


Nooooooo, come back, come back, don't leave me...I'll call the forum police!

I write Kindle books. Visit my author page. http://amazon.com/author/sgbynum
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#109 - 2013-12-11 16:06:32 UTC
Seems like a troll thread.

The way to discourage "afk" gameplay (if that is actually the goal) is to promote active mechanics, not add arbitrary APM sinks.
Chopper Rollins
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#110 - 2013-12-11 16:08:02 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Chopper Rollins wrote:

HOHO just being a smart alec?
I was objecting to the tendentious claims made in a previous post about who was generating more pgc than anyone else. Even the term pgc as a metric is just stupid and leads to bad places. My comment stands, don't bother measuring who's generating more content than anyone else, and don't try to convince me punching on weak targets is done out of any concern for content.



I know you were

Your statement that you cant create content so you better go create content

is stupid though.


I forgive you, even if you cant forgive yourself


Omir Is Love, and we remember Him in this, the month of His Glorious Rebirth


i was saying you can't measure player created content and therefore can't apply a metric called pgc to anyone's activity.
jesus christ



Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#111 - 2013-12-11 16:11:03 UTC
Chopper Rollins wrote:


jesus christ




No, Omir Sarikusa

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Tear Dancer
Armada vi Vulnezia
#112 - 2013-12-11 16:17:51 UTC
Nooooo! because i really enjoy killing retrievers that just sit there while me and my friend approach with pirate ships from 20km to kill them. then listen to them complain later is soooo fun!!

Pi$$ed off Exotic Dancer

I blow up Miners for fun and Dance for entertainment.
Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#113 - 2013-12-11 16:21:48 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
I just had a lightbulb go off.

What if every barge got an extra high slot, which was a "hardpoint" for a certain module.

Call it the "Harvester Yield Actuation Device" or something.

It has a 1 minute cycle and does not repeat. When it's on, your mining yield is normal (what it currently is). When it's offline, your mining yield drops in half.

Miners who wanted to AFK would get **** income and thus not AFK as much.

Genius.

INB4 this has already been suggested.


The AFK Bot Miners (which is 75% of highsec miners) would just include "F1" in their botting rotation. This would change nothing.

If you want to end AFK Mining, it's simple, and has always been simple: Add a minigame. Something like the hacking interface.

It will never happen. The open secret of EVE Online is that the entire player ran economy is ran on the backbone of thousands of bots mining resources 23x7.
Josef Djugashvilis
#114 - 2013-12-11 16:33:49 UTC
Dear Xython, do you have the evidence to support your claim that 'AFK Bot Miners (which is 75% of highsec miners)?

I have no idea what the real figure is, so would love to see some fact based evidence so that I can use said evidence in any future discussion about botting.

I look forward to hearing from you.

This is not a signature.
Kiryen O'Bannon
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#115 - 2013-12-11 16:45:01 UTC
It is positively hilarious to try to apply some system of utilitarian ethics ("afk generates less content than sitting at the keyboard!") to video game playing behaviors. Utilitarian ethics is based on a false premise to begin with, and that's taking a **** system and using it to apply a moral component to a leisure/luxury activity. "First-world" problems has never been more fitting.

That said, the minder/cloaker doesn't generate any content at all unless and until someone decides to attack him, and then he generates the same amount of content. Either you A) kill him or B) he warps off; the only difference between being AFK or not is that B) isn't going to happen if he's AFK. It's the rare mining ship that's actually going to fight off an attacker before either popping or having CONCORD show up.

It is NOT in fact, demonstrable, that being at the keyboard generates significantly more content, and in any case, the problem of people AFK cloaking and mining is a problem of the game incentivizing these behaviors, not of players engaging in them. Want less AFK miners? Make mining less boring. Until then, kill them if you want but don't pretend that behavior is a "problem" that needs "solving". No, it does not matter if they cry on the forums. You're always going to be able to attack them. Miners are not about to get a "no ganking" option.

Eternal Father, King of birth, /Who didst create the heaven and earth, /And bid the planets and the sun/ Their own appointed orbits run; /O hear us when we seek thy grace /For those who soar through outer space.
WASPY69
Xerum.
#116 - 2013-12-11 17:14:09 UTC
Kiryen O'Bannon wrote:
It is positively hilarious to try to apply some system of utilitarian ethics ("afk generates less content than sitting at the keyboard!") to video game playing behaviors. Utilitarian ethics is based on a false premise to begin with, and that's taking a **** system and using it to apply a moral component to a leisure/luxury activity. "First-world" problems has never been more fitting.

That said, the minder/cloaker doesn't generate any content at all unless and until someone decides to attack him, and then he generates the same amount of content. Either you A) kill him or B) he warps off; the only difference between being AFK or not is that B) isn't going to happen if he's AFK. It's the rare mining ship that's actually going to fight off an attacker before either popping or having CONCORD show up.

It is NOT in fact, demonstrable, that being at the keyboard generates significantly more content, and in any case, the problem of people AFK cloaking and mining is a problem of the game incentivizing these behaviors, not of players engaging in them. Want less AFK miners? Make mining less boring. Until then, kill them if you want but don't pretend that behavior is a "problem" that needs "solving". No, it does not matter if they cry on the forums. You're always going to be able to attack them. Miners are not about to get a "no ganking" option.

Well, miners got an "almost no ganking" option with the buff to mining ships not long ago to further promote their bot aspirant behavior. afk mining, and frankly afk 'anything' in EVE is very pathetic and sad, not to mention anti-social.
I for one agree with the OP that mining needs some drastic change to keep people at the keyboard while mining. I don't believe it would be the adrenaline filled interaction that pvp usually is, but it would keep them from pressing F1, then walking away for 30 minutes.

This signature intentionally left blank
Dont UseYourAlt OnTheForums
Doomheim
#117 - 2013-12-11 17:24:42 UTC
Id say,

DESTROY ALL HIGHSEC MINERS!!!
Poison Dagger
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#118 - 2013-12-11 17:45:48 UTC
An account can easily be plexed almost totally AFK without AFK mining at all. Obviously CCP considers AFK gameplay to be a valid style. If that wasn't the case we would not be given so many tools that support an AFK playstyle. Mining is decidedly less AFK than many of these other options.
Cameron Vayle
Dreadnoughtz Conclave
Northern Coalition.
#119 - 2013-12-11 18:06:52 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Xuixien wrote:
I just had a lightbulb go off.

What if every barge got an extra high slot, which was a "hardpoint" for a certain module.

Call it the "Harvester Yield Actuation Device" or something.

It has a 1 minute cycle and does not repeat. When it's on, your mining yield is normal (what it currently is). When it's offline, your mining yield drops in half.

Miners who wanted to AFK would get **** income and thus not AFK as much.

Genius.

INB4 this has already been suggested.

Brilliant...then they can implement that same idea on afk cloakers. You sir are genius


I actually would not be opposed to that - so long as there was a "grace period" of like 15-30 seconds where your cloak would "decay", during which time you could still re-active that moduled while remaining undetected.



Nah, no grace period. it shuts off and you would need to wait for your timer just like anytime else. Thais would make AFK awesome.
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
#120 - 2013-12-11 18:12:04 UTC
Kiryen O'Bannon wrote:
It is positively hilarious to try to apply some system of utilitarian ethics ("afk generates less content than sitting at the keyboard!") to video game playing behaviors. Utilitarian ethics is based on a false premise to begin with, and that's taking a **** system and using it to apply a moral component to a leisure/luxury activity. "First-world" problems has never been more fitting.

That said, the minder/cloaker doesn't generate any content at all unless and until someone decides to attack him, and then he generates the same amount of content. Either you A) kill him or B) he warps off; the only difference between being AFK or not is that B) isn't going to happen if he's AFK. It's the rare mining ship that's actually going to fight off an attacker before either popping or having CONCORD show up.

It is NOT in fact, demonstrable, that being at the keyboard generates significantly more content, and in any case, the problem of people AFK cloaking and mining is a problem of the game incentivizing these behaviors, not of players engaging in them. Want less AFK miners? Make mining less boring. Until then, kill them if you want but don't pretend that behavior is a "problem" that needs "solving". No, it does not matter if they cry on the forums. You're always going to be able to attack them. Miners are not about to get a "no ganking" option.



omg.

1.) It's almost not even worth my time to respond to this malarkey, but since I've now invested several comments in this thread, I'd like to rebut the claim that it is "NOT" (all caps which apparently means serious business) demonstrable that being at the keyboard generates significantly more content. This has to be one of the most illogical things I've seen someone try to defend in a very long time. So your proposition is that "player-generated content" is generated equally whether players are present or not. Really? That's pretty amazing. I'm going to go ahead and disagree with that and posit that when players are actually present more content is created or else it would probably be called player-optional content. It's pretty difficult to run a mining op or gank a freighter, or run a contest, or chat with friends - when you're afk.

2.) the afk cloaker "does" generate pgc simply with his presence. If residents of that system are affected by his presence; if they adjust their routines, or adapt in any way to the situation his presence creates, then he has successfully contributed to pgc - just by undocking.

3.) At this point, afk mining is largely a myth which has already been solved in almost all cases with the invention of the ore hold. Were it not an issue, why not give every mining barge 100,000m3 ore holds? Miners would love it. It would be wildly popular. Gankers would love the addition of loot pinatas too. If afk behavior has no effect on pgc why not? The answer is because that premise is false. Afk mining contributes almost nothing to the quality of pgc and all content in this game is player-generated. Players actually need to be present for content to be generated most efficiently. And to take it a step further - they also need to interact in some way.