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Claymore or Nighthawk?
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elorran
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2013-12-10 22:34:55 UTC
Running missions the other day and my nighthawk doesn't feel quite as powerful as it did when I last used it before the missile changes (though was a long overdue needed balance change). But the NW has also lost its explosion velocity bonus in change for a radius one. On the other hand the claymore is almost a carbon copy of the nighthawk save for its resistance and minor slot difference. But it does have the explosion velocity bonus.

I'm curious as to peoples opinions regarding the two ships and which is better/prefered as a combat ship for ratting, and mission running (and maybe even pvp).
Dato Koppla
Spaghetti Militia
#2 - 2013-12-10 23:26:23 UTC
I think explosion radius bonus is better than explosion velocity bonus because of how the missile damage formula works.
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#3 - 2013-12-11 00:30:47 UTC
If you're shooting kinetic-weak opponents in PvE, the Nighthawk is better.

For all other circumstances, the Claymore is better.

This wouldn't be the case if the Nighthawk's slot layout wasn't sub-optimal, but alas, it is.
Quontor Zarrkos
Island Monkeys
#4 - 2013-12-11 00:41:29 UTC
Short answer: nighthawk deals more kinetic damage

Long answer:
The differences are:
-explo velocity vs explo radius
-5% vs 7,5% dps bonuses
-double rate of fire vs rof/kinetic damage bonus
-7,5% shield boost bonus vs 4% resist bonus

For the first one, the radius bonus wins all the time. Due to how the missile formula works, it's just a little bit better.

The difference in size of the bonuses is slightly compensated by the fact that two rate of fire bonuses are better than one rof and one damage bonus. The nighthawk still wins here though as long as you are shooting kinetic missiles if my math is right. (After the bonuses it has 11 effective launchers vs the claymore's 8,88)

Claymore might have more tank if you active shield tank it due to better t2 resists (no em hole), extra mid and the bigger bonus (though in general a resist bonus is better as it allows you the flexibility to use any kind of shieldtank)

Claymore uses more ammo due to the double rof bonus which matters a little bit in pve when using t2/faction ammo

I would go nighthawk vs guristas and maybe angels/serpentis and claymore for the rest, don't underestimate selectable damage types.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#5 - 2013-12-11 00:57:40 UTC
Don't use command ships for missions if you want efficiency.

for 300-400 million there are faaaar superior options.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Aivo Dresden
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6 - 2013-12-11 13:29:38 UTC
Explosion Radius > Explosion velocity. Your paper DPS may not change much, but the damage application is just much much better. The nighthawk these days is a bit meeeh.

I would go for the Claymore. The Nighthawk might have a few selection situations where it's better (enemies with very low kinetic resistance for example), I think overall you'll get more out of the Claymore.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#7 - 2013-12-11 14:05:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Soldarius
Aivo Dresden wrote:
Explosion Radius > Explosion velocity


Given a particular ship that is both faster and smaller then your missile's Explosion Velocity and Explosion Radius respectively, an increase in one bonus will have the same effect as an identical increase in the other.

However, once you hit the ceiling on one, you will get no further increase in applied damage. So it can appear to the user that one bonus might be better than the other.

And Claymore > Nighthawk.

Abotu 2 weeks ago I needed a seige link bonused CS and ofc went right to the Nighthawk. Looked at the 7/5/5 slot layout and thought "Wtf is with this Minmatar slot layout?"

Out of curiosity I went and looked at the Claymore and saw 8/6/4 Caldari slot layout. So I bought the Claymore. It had the added bonus of being able to fit a command processor, and thus 4 links, so I could give both seige and skirmish links. Not to mention having 1 more slot total than the Nighthawk.

vOv

Also, RoF and damage bonuses do exactly the same thing to your overall dps. 5% RoF increase = 5% damage bonus. The difference is in that a damage bonus increases your alpha strike, while RoF reduces your weapon cycle time. The overall effect on your raw dps is the same.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#8 - 2013-12-11 20:59:43 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
Aivo Dresden wrote:
Explosion Radius > Explosion velocity


Given a particular ship that is both faster and smaller then your missile's Explosion Velocity and Explosion Radius respectively, an increase in one bonus will have the same effect as an identical increase in the other.

However, once you hit the ceiling on one, you will get no further increase in applied damage. So it can appear to the user that one bonus might be better than the other.

And Claymore > Nighthawk.

Abotu 2 weeks ago I needed a seige link bonused CS and ofc went right to the Nighthawk. Looked at the 7/5/5 slot layout and thought "Wtf is with this Minmatar slot layout?"

Out of curiosity I went and looked at the Claymore and saw 8/6/4 Caldari slot layout. So I bought the Claymore. It had the added bonus of being able to fit a command processor, and thus 4 links, so I could give both seige and skirmish links. Not to mention having 1 more slot total than the Nighthawk.

vOv

Also, RoF and damage bonuses do exactly the same thing to your overall dps. 5% RoF increase = 5% damage bonus. The difference is in that a damage bonus increases your alpha strike, while RoF reduces your weapon cycle time. The overall effect on your raw dps is the same.

Claymore only has 7 hislots...

Also, ROF is better than damage. Do the math.
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#9 - 2013-12-12 02:12:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Soldarius wrote:
Given a particular ship that is both faster and smaller then your missile's Explosion Velocity and Explosion Radius respectively, an increase in one bonus will have the same effect as an identical increase in the other.

However, once you hit the ceiling on one, you will get no further increase in applied damage. So it can appear to the user that one bonus might be better than the other.

Out of curiosity I went and looked at the Claymore and saw 8/6/4 Caldari slot layout.

Also, RoF and damage bonuses do exactly the same thing to your overall dps. 5% RoF increase = 5% damage bonus. The difference is in that a damage bonus increases your alpha strike, while RoF reduces your weapon cycle time. The overall effect on your raw dps is the same.

Blasphemy! This is SO wrong.
Just FYI:
DPS=damage/RoF;
25% damage bonus will give: 1.25*damage/RoF
25% RoF bonus will give: damage/(0.75*RoF)=1.33*damage/RoF
So 5% per level RoF bonus will yield 8.3(3)% more DPS that 5% damage bonus.

Same for explosion velocity vs explosion radius - expl. radius is in denominator in missile damage formula and thus better than expl. velocity. Plus explosion velocity can hit "ceiling" of applied DPS while still not hitting target for 100% of DPS when expl. radius does not have that downside.

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.
Darling Hassasin
Parental Control
Didn't want that Sov anyway.
#10 - 2013-12-12 06:55:15 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
Aivo Dresden wrote:
Explosion Radius > Explosion velocity


Given a particular ship that is both faster and smaller then your missile's Explosion Velocity and Explosion Radius respectively, an increase in one bonus will have the same effect as an identical increase in the other.

However, once you hit the ceiling on one, you will get no further increase in applied damage. So it can appear to the user that one bonus might be better than the other.

And Claymore > Nighthawk.

Abotu 2 weeks ago I needed a seige link bonused CS and ofc went right to the Nighthawk. Looked at the 7/5/5 slot layout and thought "Wtf is with this Minmatar slot layout?"

Out of curiosity I went and looked at the Claymore and saw 8/6/4 Caldari slot layout. So I bought the Claymore. It had the added bonus of being able to fit a command processor, and thus 4 links, so I could give both seige and skirmish links. Not to mention having 1 more slot total than the Nighthawk.

vOv

Also, RoF and damage bonuses do exactly the same thing to your overall dps. 5% RoF increase = 5% damage bonus. The difference is in that a damage bonus increases your alpha strike, while RoF reduces your weapon cycle time. The overall effect on your raw dps is the same.


Omg Test still failposting? Even the goond grew up years ago... I suspect you of being generally bad at this game now...
Janeway84
Insane's Asylum
#11 - 2013-12-12 09:09:37 UTC
Well every1 cant play game with spreadsheets Blink

some people just enjoy the game for what it is, even though looking at stats sometimes helps P
Ginger Barbarella
#12 - 2013-12-12 16:44:08 UTC
Janeway84 wrote:
Well every1 cant play game with spreadsheets Blink

some people just enjoy the game for what it is, even though looking at stats sometimes helps P


EFT Warriors FTW!!!!

(aka, "Who needs to fly the boat when you have EFT?!?!")

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Nimrod vanHall
Van Mij Belastingvrij
#13 - 2013-12-12 19:29:10 UTC
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
Soldarius wrote:
Given a particular ship that is both faster and smaller then your missile's Explosion Velocity and Explosion Radius respectively, an increase in one bonus will have the same effect as an identical increase in the other.

However, once you hit the ceiling on one, you will get no further increase in applied damage. So it can appear to the user that one bonus might be better than the other.

Out of curiosity I went and looked at the Claymore and saw 8/6/4 Caldari slot layout.

Also, RoF and damage bonuses do exactly the same thing to your overall dps. 5% RoF increase = 5% damage bonus. The difference is in that a damage bonus increases your alpha strike, while RoF reduces your weapon cycle time. The overall effect on your raw dps is the same.

Blasphemy! This is SO wrong.
Just FYI:
DPS=damage/RoF;
25% damage bonus will give: 1.25*damage/RoF
25% RoF bonus will give: damage/(0.75*RoF)=1.33*damage/RoF
So 5% per level RoF bonus will yield 8.3(3)% more DPS that 5% damage bonus.

Same for explosion velocity vs explosion radius - expl. radius is in denominator in missile damage formula and thus better than expl. velocity. Plus explosion velocity can hit "ceiling" of applied DPS while still not hitting target for 100% of DPS when expl. radius does not have that downside.


Your forgetting that a higher ROF also means relatively more time spend reloading, meaning a lowering of the DPS increase.