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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

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Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#3101 - 2013-12-11 12:08:13 UTC
Moonaura wrote:
Zvaarian, its an issue with missiles in general. The time to target and delayed response, is a pain in missile gangs. I saw this most when I ran sniping / kiting caracal's pre-crucible nerf on Heavy Missiles. We'd fit to reach 110km, as it was one of the best ways to avoid Thorax's (Stabbers were a pain in the bum though).

But anyway, you'd call primary, and then wait. And wait. Then you'd see a lot of damage sometimes, coming in slightly apart depending on where people were on the field, and how well they'd responded to the primary call etc.

The problem you have is when you call to switch to another target, because it looks like the next set of volley's are going to finish your primary off, but sometimes by the time the missiles get there, he's got reps etc.

Its actually a real problem, and its something you don't have with guns. Its either dead, or it isn't. So missile fleets in general are slower at switching targets, because of the delay in seeing if your current inbound missiles have done the job. And by the time you've found they have, then another set of missiles is already on there way - and effectively completely wasted.

This is why I said the new RLML with just 18 missiles is incredibly inefficient in a small gang now, because every missile has to count, but it nearly impossible to call it right in advance of the missile landing.


I'm not disputing that it's an issue or that it's not annoying sometimes. I simply maintain that the greater DPS of cruise missiles vs most long range guns pretty much negates it in terms of how fast sites can be run. Like I said it's more about perception than reality. This is one instance where the missile problem is not as bad as people think. Though I'm definitely not opposed to a proportionate increase of damage and decrease of rate of fire, a straight up increase in missile flight speed, or both.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3102 - 2013-12-11 12:08:57 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Is this still the case? Are all medium missiles going to be reviewed because I haven't seen a single player with any credibility try to say that HML's are working, or even close to it. I think most of the open hostility towards RLML really comes from the fact that a lot of people were not just using RLML for killing frigates but as the last plausible weapon against other small cruisers as well.

The original RLMLs were not only effective against anything from frigates to cruisers, but they did so without the assistance of rigs or any electronic warfare. Range was really decent (60km+), upwards of 80 rounds in terms of capacity, a 10-second reload and - probably the most important aspect - <50 power grid fitting per launcher. This last element cannot be appreciate enough, as it allowed Caracals to allocate more to tank.

So it's not just that the new RLMLs resulted in a 25.4% DPS hit or that the 40-second reload killed tactical ammo swaps, but just to continue to run them you lost a considerable portion of your tank. Had the fitting requirements remained unchanged, I suspect their use would be more prevalent than it is.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#3103 - 2013-12-11 12:19:02 UTC
Moonaura wrote:
Zvaarian, its an issue with missiles in general. The time to target and delayed response, is a pain in missile gangs. I saw this most when I ran sniping / kiting caracal's pre-crucible nerf on Heavy Missiles. We'd fit to reach 110km, as it was one of the best ways to avoid Thorax's (Stabbers were a pain in the bum though).

But anyway, you'd call primary, and then wait. And wait. Then you'd see a lot of damage sometimes, coming in slightly apart depending on where people were on the field, and how well they'd responded to the primary call etc.

The problem you have is when you call to switch to another target, because it looks like the next set of volley's are going to finish your primary off, but sometimes by the time the missiles get there, he's got reps etc.

Its actually a real problem, and its something you don't have with guns. Its either dead, or it isn't. So missile fleets in general are slower at switching targets, because of the delay in seeing if your current inbound missiles have done the job. And by the time you've found they have, then another set of missiles is already on there way - and effectively completely wasted.

This is why I said the new RLML with just 18 missiles is incredibly inefficient in a small gang now, because every missile has to count, but it nearly impossible to call it right in advance of the missile landing.


Yeah I spoke to guys in incursions and they don't like missiles at all, they are very inefficient in fleets even though the dps is better about 1 in 5 shots are wasted on targets that are already dead, and that goes up even more as the targets get smaller. For solo pve it's not an issue but for a fleet that's a lot of wasted dps, even letting one or two missile guys tag along they basically become passengers because by the time their missiles hit most of the targets will already be dead.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#3104 - 2013-12-11 12:20:05 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Is this still the case? Are all medium missiles going to be reviewed because I haven't seen a single player with any credibility try to say that HML's are working, or even close to it. I think most of the open hostility towards RLML really comes from the fact that a lot of people were not just using RLML for killing frigates but as the last plausible weapon against other small cruisers as well.

The original RLMLs were not only effective against anything from frigates to cruisers, but they did so without the assistance of rigs or any electronic warfare. Range was really decent (60km+), upwards of 80 rounds in terms of capacity, a 10-second reload and - probably the most important aspect - <50 power grid fitting per launcher. This last element cannot be appreciate enough, as it allowed Caracals to allocate more to tank.

So it's not just that the new RLMLs resulted in a 25.4% DPS hit or that the 40-second reload killed tactical ammo swaps, but just to continue to run them you lost a considerable portion of your tank. Had the fitting requirements remained unchanged, I suspect their use would be more prevalent than it is.


Yeah I don't really dispute that they were probably too good at killing frigs and cruisers. In my opinion that's fairly obvious. On the other hand I don't think they needed to be fundamentally redesigned and mega-nerfed to fix the problem. I mean if you reduce the damage application of light precision missiles, increase the PWG a bit, and lower the ammo capacity, you probably have done what needs to be done without pissing off nearly every RLML user in the game with a complete redesign that no one really wanted or had asked for. I mean it's not like these things had completely taken over the small gang and solo scene before the change. They were just a tad bit too efficient.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#3105 - 2013-12-11 12:23:30 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Moonaura wrote:
Zvaarian, its an issue with missiles in general. The time to target and delayed response, is a pain in missile gangs. I saw this most when I ran sniping / kiting caracal's pre-crucible nerf on Heavy Missiles. We'd fit to reach 110km, as it was one of the best ways to avoid Thorax's (Stabbers were a pain in the bum though).

But anyway, you'd call primary, and then wait. And wait. Then you'd see a lot of damage sometimes, coming in slightly apart depending on where people were on the field, and how well they'd responded to the primary call etc.

The problem you have is when you call to switch to another target, because it looks like the next set of volley's are going to finish your primary off, but sometimes by the time the missiles get there, he's got reps etc.

Its actually a real problem, and its something you don't have with guns. Its either dead, or it isn't. So missile fleets in general are slower at switching targets, because of the delay in seeing if your current inbound missiles have done the job. And by the time you've found they have, then another set of missiles is already on there way - and effectively completely wasted.

This is why I said the new RLML with just 18 missiles is incredibly inefficient in a small gang now, because every missile has to count, but it nearly impossible to call it right in advance of the missile landing.


Yeah I spoke to guys in incursions and they don't like missiles at all, they are very inefficient in fleets even though the dps is better about 1 in 5 shots are wasted on targets that are already dead, and that goes up even more as the targets get smaller. For solo pve it's not an issue but for a fleet that's a lot of wasted dps, even letting one or two missile guys tag along they basically become passengers because by the time their missiles hit most of the targets will already be dead.


1 in 5 shots being wasted (which can be avoided for the most part) pretty much puts their DPS at the level of most turret boats. But yeah, people don't like those missiles blowing up half way to a dead target. It just feels "inefficient".
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#3106 - 2013-12-11 12:46:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonaura
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
but atm we dont have a proper missile systems outside of spacialised frig owning system
and brawling HAMs, (yes you need webs to apply damage)


I mean if this is actually the root of a lot of the problem then that's a different issue that we need to address. I'm not totally sure it is, but I want to take a hard look at HML before the point release and make sure we're okay with where we're at. If that needs a tweak then we should be doing that, not focusing on RLML as a solution to a HML problem.


CCP Rise wrote:
Using examples of what one alliance fields in a few select fights doesn't really show much. In general, metrics show that missiles have certainly come down in popularity some since HML changes but overall they are still performing well.

The Phoenix is certainly not in a good place. We actually tried to do a pass on it a few patches back but couldn't get the tuning quite right so we decided to wait a little since there will be good opportunities to balance it alongside other changes that we have in mind.

Missiles gained some ground recently with Cruise changes and the addition of RHML. We want to do a few more things over the next few patches that will also impact missile balance, if that helps your outlook.


I think we've shown that HML is the root of the issue. When you say it's metrics have come down but still okay, its worth considering the PvE aspect of course.

For PvP, I can't understand anyone that sees how they function actually using these things, really? I mean come on, a missile system that does low DPS to start with, and only hits for half its DPS against Cruisers? Even with Precisions in?

Heavy Missiles don't need more DPS, they just need to be able to apply the existing DPS reasonably, and also consider things like TP etc. Its fair to expect a gang to bring stuff to make these things work, but if it takes 5 bellicose with TP and bonuses to make these things hit properly, then I'd say that HM are broken.

You also need to consider the Tengu in relation to all of this, as we don't want (well maybe Arthur does lol) Tengu blobs replacing Drake blobs. So if Heavy Missiles improve - and honestly - you can't say they don't need to be given all we've shown you guys about them - then the relevant Tengu bonuses need to be kept in check to stop it being OMG powerful at 100km.

Personally I was fine with the range nerf HM got before, its the fact they just don't hit anything that is the real issue. I've fielded an entire small fleet of Caracal's before now with HM - pre Crucible - and a single fleet stabbers with gang bonuses came in and did terrible, terrible things to my ego lol... and several of the Caracal's lol. Now, if he flew it right, he could have taken out the entire fleet one by one.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#3107 - 2013-12-11 12:57:43 UTC
Seeing then Arthur's numbers, I think missile balance is rather good between themselves : even when factoring reload, RLML are the goto weapon to shoot at frigates ; HAML are the best overall and HML are for long range.

Details might need some tweeks but the relative power between all of them is good I think.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#3108 - 2013-12-11 13:02:16 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Seeing then Arthur's numbers, I think missile balance is rather good between themselves : even when factoring reload, RLML are the goto weapon to shoot at frigates ; HAML are the best overall and HML are for long range.

Details might need some tweeks but the relative power between all of them is good I think.


It's been pointed out countless times in this thread that HMs do pathetic damage to cruisers even with precision missiles, and yet you keep saying everything is fine while willfully misinterpreting the mountains of data in this thread. Please stop posting.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#3109 - 2013-12-11 13:08:36 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Seeing then Arthur's numbers, I think missile balance is rather good between themselves : even when factoring reload, RLML are the goto weapon to shoot at frigates ; HAML are the best overall and HML are for long range.

Details might need some tweeks but the relative power between all of them is good I think.


It's been pointed out countless times in this thread that HMs do pathetic damage to cruisers even with precision missiles, and yet you keep saying everything is fine while willfully misinterpreting the mountains of data in this thread. Please stop posting.


I hope he meant the paper dps, as in HML lowest, RLML next lowest, then HAM best. I would have to agree that is the order they should be in, and if the damage application issues were out of the way we could potentially have a role for each weapon.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#3110 - 2013-12-11 13:16:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Seeing then Arthur's numbers, I think missile balance is rather good between themselves : even when factoring reload, RLML are the goto weapon to shoot at frigates ; HAML are the best overall and HML are for long range.

Details might need some tweeks but the relative power between all of them is good I think.


It's been pointed out countless times in this thread that HMs do pathetic damage to cruisers even with precision missiles, and yet you keep saying everything is fine while willfully misinterpreting the mountains of data in this thread. Please stop posting.
Either I'm very bad at english or you have reading comprehension...

Details might need some tweeks but the relative power between all of (medium missile systems) is good I think.

I also stated the potential source of HM problem in the previous post.

Also, it's you who insult everyone not agreeing with you or doesn't seeing missiles as absurdly broken. This atitude is childish at best.

So, please, stop being a douchebag.

PS : Thanks Fourteen, you finaly understood something I wrote !
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#3111 - 2013-12-11 13:30:20 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Moonaura wrote:
Zvaarian, its an issue with missiles in general. The time to target and delayed response, is a pain in missile gangs. I saw this most when I ran sniping / kiting caracal's pre-crucible nerf on Heavy Missiles. We'd fit to reach 110km, as it was one of the best ways to avoid Thorax's (Stabbers were a pain in the bum though).

But anyway, you'd call primary, and then wait. And wait. Then you'd see a lot of damage sometimes, coming in slightly apart depending on where people were on the field, and how well they'd responded to the primary call etc.

The problem you have is when you call to switch to another target, because it looks like the next set of volley's are going to finish your primary off, but sometimes by the time the missiles get there, he's got reps etc.

Its actually a real problem, and its something you don't have with guns. Its either dead, or it isn't. So missile fleets in general are slower at switching targets, because of the delay in seeing if your current inbound missiles have done the job. And by the time you've found they have, then another set of missiles is already on there way - and effectively completely wasted.

This is why I said the new RLML with just 18 missiles is incredibly inefficient in a small gang now, because every missile has to count, but it nearly impossible to call it right in advance of the missile landing.


I'm not disputing that it's an issue or that it's not annoying sometimes. I simply maintain that the greater DPS of cruise missiles vs most long range guns pretty much negates it in terms of how fast sites can be run. Like I said it's more about perception than reality. This is one instance where the missile problem is not as bad as people think. Though I'm definitely not opposed to a proportionate increase of damage and decrease of rate of fire, a straight up increase in missile flight speed, or both.


I've not tried Cruise missiles yet, so you may be right, but Time to Target is a real issue in PvP, and slows us down when it comes to target switching. Against armor, it typically gave them time to get reps in. Eventually, what happened in FW was that they would warp off, because we couldn't point them, only hurt them with the long range fits pre-crucible. Any pilot brave enough to sit in a Moa and point for us, soon died lol. We tried all sorts - even desperately trying to make pre-balance change T1 logistics work. The things were filled with cap boosters and were hilarious really.

I also considered ECM burst Moa's sitting at the entrance to stave off the DPS, but you can't do it near the entrance, and get negative sec standings for your own faction whose plex your defending, so anything like smartbombing etc is also out.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3112 - 2013-12-11 13:35:28 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Seeing then Arthur's numbers, I think missile balance is rather good between themselves : even when factoring reload, RLML are the goto weapon to shoot at frigates ; HAML are the best overall and HML are for long range.

Details might need some tweeks but the relative power between all of them is good I think.

Yes, this is why all of the charts I posted have comparisons with HMLs… oh, wait… Lol

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#3113 - 2013-12-11 13:43:46 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Seeing then Arthur's numbers, I think missile balance is rather good between themselves : even when factoring reload, RLML are the goto weapon to shoot at frigates ; HAML are the best overall and HML are for long range.

Details might need some tweeks but the relative power between all of them is good I think.

Yes, this is why all of the charts I posted have comparisons with HMLs… oh, wait… Lol

I don't understand what you mean, sorry.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#3114 - 2013-12-11 13:45:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Fourteen Maken
Most of the people who have posted have been openly hostile to the changes, or at least thought it was over kill. There have been 57,000 views so far, nearly as many as some of the sticky threads that are up for years... CCP Rise at least has tried to respond, but where are the CSM's who supposedly championed this? Why can they not explain their reasoning because it's clearly out of touch with a lot of players.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#3115 - 2013-12-11 13:46:51 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

So, please, stop being a douchebag.


You consistently act like you know more about missiles than missile users (some of whom are very experienced), willfully misinterpret hard data to support your arguments, and generally act like you are simply smarter than the rest of us, and I'm the douchbag?

Roll
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#3116 - 2013-12-11 13:57:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonaura
Fit for the Bellicose below.

Here is an example of why the Heavy Missiles are not feasable in PvP.

I've gone a bit silly with it.

I've filled it full of target painters - for which it gets a bonus.

And I've filled it full of missile rigs to hit smaller, faster targets better.

And I've put in Precision missiles.

On paper DPS is 198 over 31km.

I wouldn't call that high to start with, but its decent. It has three BCU's in.

Against an AB fit Stabber it still can't do full damage unless the stabber slows down.

If the Stabber is full speed without overload, the missiles do 170 DPS. After resists then, that is going to be at least half that typically.

Against the Incursus, the missiles do just 107 DPS.

Now it is a Medium weapon system, but its using missiles with reduced damage to start with, designed to hit fast small signature stuff - with the rigs in etc.

I did not include drones in the damage numbers btw.

If we reload in Fury Missiles - DPS increases to 310 on the Bellicose.

These missiles are designed for other normal cruisers.

Against a non prop OR MWD thorax for example, it does identical DPS of 267. Against the Stabber though, DPS drops down to 87 DPS - this is why you have to use Precisions against them.

So even if I take out a gang where every ship uses rigs and forgoes tank - and we include five bellicose's each with a TP fit - I still can't get the Heavy Missiles to hit for their full damage against another cruiser.

I know what Buoh is saying about Guns not hitting anything like missiles - but they have the potential - and flown right - can - do far more damage than this. Certainly in a gang, you would expect the overall DPS of guns to be higher than the missiles. Given if you took out a HM gang, you'd feel that instinctively, that you'd do less DPS, but hit better than HAM's, the reverse is true.

With HAM's and Rage's loaded, the Bellicose does full 367 DPS against another cruiser - almost its full damage, even against the Stabber its DPS is higher than Precisions. That is with Rage's in! If you load in the Javelins, you'll do 202 DPS against the stabber. A big improvement over the HM Precisions.

Naturally, a Bellicose fit like this is never going to undock. The idea is you'd mingle in Bellicose's into the gang with a TP or two attached. Its also unlikely that you're going to forgo tank and resistance rigs on your Caracals. Maybe one Missile rig at best.

If you project the TP effect onto a target and compare the Thorax with its guns alone, it going to be very effective with its rails in such a situation. I'm showing it able to hit stuff happily for 330 DPS in most circumstances, which in a gang, is going to be realistic. That is with one DPS module and one Enhancer in.

If you add in the Hammerheads, it's going to easily do close to its full damage over a wide range.

It definitely doesn't have the simplicity and fire and forget attitude of the missiles, no question, but again, if you did take out a gang with some Bellicose in, I'd rather bring Thorax's as the DPS boats.

I don't expect heavy missiles to hit 100% perfectly as standard. That would be nuts. But clearly, with this much TP and rigs, you'd hope they'd get close. But they are still a large % away from their potential.

[Bellicose, Damage Application Issue]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II

Target Painter II
Target Painter II
Target Painter II
Target Painter II
Target Painter II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Precision Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Precision Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Precision Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Precision Heavy Missile

Medium Warhead Flare Catalyst I
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I

Warrior II x5
Hornet EC-300 x3

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#3117 - 2013-12-11 14:16:52 UTC
Moonaura wrote:
Fit for the Bellicose below.

Here is an example of why the Heavy Missiles are not feasable in PvP.

I've gone a bit silly with it.

I've filled it full of target painters - for which it gets a bonus.

And I've filled it full of missile rigs to hit smaller, faster targets better.

And I've put in Precision missiles.

On paper DPS is 198 over 31km.

I wouldn't call that high to start with, but its decent. It has three BCU's in.



yep. no amount of rigs or target painters is enough to fix the damage application on a solo or even small gang of HML cruisers, it's just that bad. They must have similar damage application stats to what HAM's are currently or they will always be useless in pvp

1. Buff HML damage application to be almost where HAM's are.

2. Introduce a new low slot module that enhances explosion radius and velocity on all missiles so that players have to make a choice between dropping potential dps for better applied dps against moving targets.

3. A few more rounds in the RLML launchers, and the abillity to instantly switch damage types

I think that would fix a lot of the problems
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#3118 - 2013-12-11 14:36:49 UTC
Not sure about against players, but RLMLs suck massive ass against frig rats. The long reload time means that you're going to be sitting there for a while as they nibble you. Most of the time they spawn in groups large enough that you will run out long before the group is finished.
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#3119 - 2013-12-11 14:39:28 UTC
Shhhh... PvE doesn't count :)

You could always use Heavy Missiles instead...

Yes I was joking. Reroll guns.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3120 - 2013-12-11 15:10:11 UTC
Moonaura wrote:
I've filled it full of target painters - for which it gets a bonus.

Just FYI, there's more to be gained with a pair of dual webs than another pair of target painters (although this does entirely defeat the whole range advantage with heavy missiles):

• 3x Target Painters = 37.5% + (86.9% x 37.5% = 32.58) + (57.1% x 37.5% = 21.41) = +91.5% signature
• 2x T2 Webs = 40% + (86.9% x 40% = 34.76) = -74.76% velocity

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.