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[NERF] Serpentis web bonus change

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FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#861 - 2013-12-10 02:02:34 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
Goldensaver wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Leave the Serpentis ships alone. They have a powerful bonus that makes them good. They are certainly not OP.

What a brilliant and compelling argument. This guy clearly has it right. You can't deny all this evidence.


I don't need to post evidence - beyond the fact that Serpentis ships do not blot out the sun. Serpentis ships are not a part of every 0.0 doctrine. As with most things, they have a niche role that they perform well. They are easy to kill, when one can find them (I rarely see them in the roaming gangs that role through my space - I only know a couple of folks who fly them routinely outside of PvE.) That's purely anecdotal and from a small sample size.

Ultimately, discussions of game balance come down to perception and faith. You are not likely to convince me without some facts that show how they are OP. I see numbers about 4x more effective than 60% webs, but I don't see the massive imbalance that creates. If they were 90% webs with 40km range, that would be another matter completely.

As long as the ships and the doctrines they are a part of have a reasonable counter, they are not OP. Since Serpentis ships have reasonable counters, they are fine.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#862 - 2013-12-10 02:07:58 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:


I still think people are over estimating the webs. The example given of dreads blapping stuff with vindi webs is still entirely possible without a [Vindicator] on the field.


This. I can support Blap Dreads very easily without a Vindicator.

These ships are great in a setting where they won't get blobbed and they can concentrate their DPS on a single webbed target within range. When I see roaming gangs of Vindicators wrecking havoc across Null Sec I'll start to worry.

As indicated above, your anecdotal experience may be different. Perhaps in the part of the world you inhabit, you routinely fight people who can dictate range against you and who make you come inside of overheated web range.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#863 - 2013-12-10 03:07:34 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
So you've moved from arguing to using logical fallacies?

bad,

I was just asking, because it's pretty damn obvious that there in fact ISN'T any issues with the 90% webs on the Serpentis ships as i can't find any topics where peoples are complaining about that after the webbers was nerfed to 60%. If there had been issues with it, peoples would have complained about it ages ago. But so far, i haven't seen a single topic about it, except for this one ofc.

Or would you find some topics about this so you can back up your arguments instead?


Again, fallacy.

What posts have been made before is utterly irrelevant.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#864 - 2013-12-10 03:10:54 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Again, fallacy.

What posts have been made before is utterly irrelevant.

It's not irrelevant because if it's so relevant you want this topic to be, there must have been some older topics about the same thing that have been as much relevant.

And let me ask you, if this haven't been complained about before, what exactly made this so much of an issue just after this topic was made that made you to complain now and not before about this?

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Justin Cody
War Firm
#865 - 2013-12-10 04:08:21 UTC
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:


They can remain unique and with a clear serpentis without 90% web.


The realm of Fozzie and Rise's creativity seems to be limited to 'add tracking /damage/tanking/optimal range bonuses and then add an ROF bonus and then give it a mwd sig reduction and we've now made that ship balanced and unique".

You see I know because they've had all t1 and t2 ships save recons now to 'be creative' with and all we've gotten in return is 200 flavors of what I just said.

These ships are unique now, and having these two snow flakes put a little magic in them along with that french guy who ignored 300 pages of user feed back does NOT inspire confidence when they just got done going through and making every ship a generic version of each other.

Pray tell fine poster what bonus could be given over to the Serpentis line that would keep their unique feel and performance while not being the same stupid bonuses that have been given to the other ships already?


Maybe something like a web bonus right?


Pretty much this. Pirate ships should be oriented towards uniqueness and the Serpent is bonuses are fine in that regard.


Just to be innovative here...how about serpentis ships get a bonus to drug use (effectiveness and penalty reduction...as in if you even get a penalty the effect of it is halved or maybe the duration cut by 75% so you have a window to use it optimally).

*just a thought*
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#866 - 2013-12-10 06:11:28 UTC
Justin Cody wrote:


Just to be innovative here...how about serpentis ships get a bonus to drug use (effectiveness and penalty reduction...as in if you even get a penalty the effect of it is halved or maybe the duration cut by 75% so you have a window to use it optimally).

*just a thought*


That would certainly be an interesting bonus for some ships.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Justin Cody
War Firm
#867 - 2013-12-10 07:55:26 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Justin Cody wrote:


Just to be innovative here...how about serpentis ships get a bonus to drug use (effectiveness and penalty reduction...as in if you even get a penalty the effect of it is halved or maybe the duration cut by 75% so you have a window to use it optimally).

*just a thought*


That would certainly be an interesting bonus for some ships.



For pirate ships I think they should push the edge in a different way than t2 or navy. Navy is fine with tracking and dps...pirate should be doing interesting things with game mechanics.

For example: Guristas/Sansha: Hardwiring implant effectiveness bonus (50%) Role bonus
Serpentis/Angel: Drug Penalty Reduction (-25% penalty duration and -25% penalty effectiveness) Role Bonus
Bloodraider: I haven't thought of it yet...

But something like that. Push the envelope with game mechanics that haven't been used with ships actively yet. Make these ships feel like they are pushing the edge illegally...like pirates would. They should be more fragile in terms of resistances than t2 and perhaps less sturdy in terms of capacitor and sensors and 'conventional' systems...but they should be bleeding edge somehow.

Maybe they all get the drug bonus I dunno but I prefer flavor over an esoteric idea of balance. It would help give them all their proper niche. These aren't necessarily fleet vessels...but pirate raiding ships. So building in the idea of "burst" effectiveness seems like a good idea at least on the surface.
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#868 - 2013-12-10 08:04:39 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
But wouldn't it be kinda hard to use pirate ships in empire / high sec then?

Ofc, if you pop one drug / booster before you undocks and then warp to your targets in your Serpentis ship, then it might work, but other than that, it would be useless if you have to carry some drugs / boosters with you because the ships have some bonuses for that as the faction police will stop you in every high sec systems you jumps into with drugs / boosters onboard.

That wont work then.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Justin Cody
War Firm
#869 - 2013-12-10 09:39:35 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
But wouldn't it be kinda hard to use pirate ships in empire / high sec then?

Ofc, if you pop one drug / booster before you undocks and then warp to your targets in your Serpentis ship, then it might work, but other than that, it would be useless if you have to carry some drugs / boosters with you because the ships have some bonuses for that as the faction police will stop you in every high sec systems you jumps into with drugs / boosters onboard.

That wont work then.


Well CCP has said they want to address the issue of the whole customs office police thing...would be nice if they'd do it with the pirate ship changes. Players would scan people to see if they have drugs and then they could be suspect flagged. However I think you're wrong about it not working. They work for an hour at the moment and you can't repeatedly pop drugs. So...deal with it.

Besides. It is a PIRATE ship. Make it feel piratey! not just a thorax on steroids. You could also base yourself in low sec...adjacent to high sec...keep your drugs there. you can only use one at a time. Depending on your fit only one or two are going to be useful to you.

consider its use in the 3/4 of the game that isn't high sec. I can't use bubbles or bombs in high sec...OMG GET RID OF IT. Jeeze...having an ability that is MORE useful in low sec and 00 but can be used effectively in high sec is hardly terrible. You can't roam with drugs now...so just pray CCP addresses the issue.
Nag'o
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#870 - 2013-12-10 11:35:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Nag'o
I foresee webs staying with 10% bonus and a ton of carebears missioning on T1 rail fit Vindicators they bought cheaply due to the market crash.

Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality.
Naomi Anthar
#871 - 2013-12-10 12:33:24 UTC
Nag'o wrote:
I foresee webs staying with 10% bonus and a ton of carebears missioning on T1 rail fit Vindicators they bought cheaply due to the market crash.


Yeah i already stocked more Vindis than entire Suddenly alliance got in thier hangars.
Now when they will blow up who is going to sell those and profit ?
Market speculation at it best <3.

On more serious note where is hammer CCP. Show us hammer in official topic. Time to drop on those pesky Serpentis ships ;>.

The suddenly tears , best tears. Surprise is always nice right :D ?
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#872 - 2013-12-10 16:23:37 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:


I still think people are over estimating the webs. The example given of dreads blapping stuff with vindi webs is still entirely possible without a [Vindicator] on the field.


This. I can support Blap Dreads very easily without a Vindicator.

These ships are great in a setting where they won't get blobbed and they can concentrate their DPS on a single webbed target within range. When I see roaming gangs of Vindicators wrecking havoc across Null Sec I'll start to worry.

As indicated above, your anecdotal experience may be different. Perhaps in the part of the world you inhabit, you routinely fight people who can dictate range against you and who make you come inside of overheated web range.

+1, are huggins OP too? because they are also VERY sefull at helping blap dread, maybe even more than vindis imao, yet no one complain afaik.

seriously, they have a great bonus, yes, but it comes at a price!

if i fly a 1b hull, it better damn be worth the price!

so unless they can be bought in masse at 300M isk a pop, nothing to argue about
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#873 - 2013-12-10 16:28:02 UTC
Justin Cody wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Justin Cody wrote:


Just to be innovative here...how about serpentis ships get a bonus to drug use (effectiveness and penalty reduction...as in if you even get a penalty the effect of it is halved or maybe the duration cut by 75% so you have a window to use it optimally).

*just a thought*


That would certainly be an interesting bonus for some ships.



For pirate ships I think they should push the edge in a different way than t2 or navy. Navy is fine with tracking and dps...pirate should be doing interesting things with game mechanics.

For example: Guristas/Sansha: Hardwiring implant effectiveness bonus (50%) Role bonus
Serpentis/Angel: Drug Penalty Reduction (-25% penalty duration and -25% penalty effectiveness) Role Bonus
Bloodraider: I haven't thought of it yet...

But something like that. Push the envelope with game mechanics that haven't been used with ships actively yet. Make these ships feel like they are pushing the edge illegally...like pirates would. They should be more fragile in terms of resistances than t2 and perhaps less sturdy in terms of capacitor and sensors and 'conventional' systems...but they should be bleeding edge somehow.

Maybe they all get the drug bonus I dunno but I prefer flavor over an esoteric idea of balance. It would help give them all their proper niche. These aren't necessarily fleet vessels...but pirate raiding ships. So building in the idea of "burst" effectiveness seems like a good idea at least on the surface.

imao, that is exactly what angel / serpentis ships are doing right now, having an interesting edge on a specific game mechanic, speed / agility and web mechanism.

what i miss in fact is that the guristas and blood raider does NOT have such specific roles
dexter xio
Dead Game.
#874 - 2013-12-10 17:50:56 UTC
By arguing with NightmareX you're more r*tarded than him.

Dead Game.
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#875 - 2013-12-10 20:04:10 UTC
dexter xio wrote:
By arguing with NightmareX you're more r*tarded than him.

LOL, don't flood this topic with tears, ktnxbai.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#876 - 2013-12-10 20:16:46 UTC
seth Hendar wrote:
Justin Cody wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Justin Cody wrote:


Just to be innovative here...how about serpentis ships get a bonus to drug use (effectiveness and penalty reduction...as in if you even get a penalty the effect of it is halved or maybe the duration cut by 75% so you have a window to use it optimally).

*just a thought*


That would certainly be an interesting bonus for some ships.



For pirate ships I think they should push the edge in a different way than t2 or navy. Navy is fine with tracking and dps...pirate should be doing interesting things with game mechanics.

For example: Guristas/Sansha: Hardwiring implant effectiveness bonus (50%) Role bonus
Serpentis/Angel: Drug Penalty Reduction (-25% penalty duration and -25% penalty effectiveness) Role Bonus
Bloodraider: I haven't thought of it yet...

But something like that. Push the envelope with game mechanics that haven't been used with ships actively yet. Make these ships feel like they are pushing the edge illegally...like pirates would. They should be more fragile in terms of resistances than t2 and perhaps less sturdy in terms of capacitor and sensors and 'conventional' systems...but they should be bleeding edge somehow.

Maybe they all get the drug bonus I dunno but I prefer flavor over an esoteric idea of balance. It would help give them all their proper niche. These aren't necessarily fleet vessels...but pirate raiding ships. So building in the idea of "burst" effectiveness seems like a good idea at least on the surface.

imao, that is exactly what angel / serpentis ships are doing right now, having an interesting edge on a specific game mechanic, speed / agility and web mechanism.

what i miss in fact is that the guristas and blood raider does NOT have such specific roles

Guristas maybe, but Blood Raiders definitely have a specific role in using webs and cap warfare to effectively remove ships from being able to have any effect on combat.

As to the proposed, the ideas seem harder to take advantage of and less accessible than the current ones. Unique yes and possibly more flexible, but ultimately I have a hard time seeing them allowing the ships that are attractive because of their bonuses retain that attractiveness.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#877 - 2013-12-10 21:22:33 UTC
Naomi Anthar wrote:
Nag'o wrote:
I foresee webs staying with 10% bonus and a ton of carebears missioning on T1 rail fit Vindicators they bought cheaply due to the market crash.


Yeah i already stocked more Vindis than entire Suddenly alliance got in thier hangars.
Now when they will blow up who is going to sell those and profit ?
Market speculation at it best <3.

On more serious note where is hammer CCP. Show us hammer in official topic. Time to drop on those pesky Serpentis ships ;>.

The suddenly tears , best tears. Surprise is always nice right :D ?




You appear to be under the impression you are relevant.... or was that revenant?



The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Saeger1737
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#878 - 2013-12-10 22:47:12 UTC
Give the ashimmu 1 more low slot and 15m3 drone capacity and bandwidth and it'll be just as good as the vigilant now or even better.
Give the cruor another low slot and bring it out of uselessness.

I'm saying leave the serpantis line alone buff the ships that need it to be effective. Like bring the power grid on the worm up from 35 to 40.

And when will we see a min/caldari pirate ship?

MERC WITH A MOUTH, Send me DPS and my fleet will double it back! Special offer!
Anya Klibor
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#879 - 2013-12-11 00:05:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Anya Klibor
Justin Cody wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:


They can remain unique and with a clear serpentis without 90% web.


The realm of Fozzie and Rise's creativity seems to be limited to 'add tracking /damage/tanking/optimal range bonuses and then add an ROF bonus and then give it a mwd sig reduction and we've now made that ship balanced and unique".

You see I know because they've had all t1 and t2 ships save recons now to 'be creative' with and all we've gotten in return is 200 flavors of what I just said.

These ships are unique now, and having these two snow flakes put a little magic in them along with that french guy who ignored 300 pages of user feed back does NOT inspire confidence when they just got done going through and making every ship a generic version of each other.

Pray tell fine poster what bonus could be given over to the Serpentis line that would keep their unique feel and performance while not being the same stupid bonuses that have been given to the other ships already?


Maybe something like a web bonus right?


Pretty much this. Pirate ships should be oriented towards uniqueness and the Serpent is bonuses are fine in that regard.


Just to be innovative here...how about serpentis ships get a bonus to drug use (effectiveness and penalty reduction...as in if you even get a penalty the effect of it is halved or maybe the duration cut by 75% so you have a window to use it optimally).

*just a thought*


Boosters are not modules. Skills determine the module strength or the ship strength. There is nothing that improves implant strength (at least not directly) or drug power. There shouldn't be, either. Flying the ship has nothing to do with the actual booster strength.

Leadership is something you learn. Maybe one day, you'll learn that.
Niden
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#880 - 2013-12-11 09:46:34 UTC
This is thread is tldr - but I'd like to cast my vote.

Being a Daredevil pilot I know the ship quite well. Dulling this fun boat down by removing the web bonus entirely is a grave mistake in my eyes, not because "dud don't kill my uber fit" but because it's what gives the ship it's character and charm.

If you have to neft it, make it +5% / level of Gallente frigate IMO.

Moira corp | Villore Accords | Gallente militia |  Lowlife on Crossing Zebras | @Niden_GMVA