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The great missile debate

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Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#161 - 2013-12-09 15:02:40 UTC
Odithia wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:


Caldari and Amarr ships are very specialized, with now the exception of amarr drone ships, they only need one type of tank and one weapon. Drones as frigate defense don't have the importance of a primary weapon system. And to prove it, I'd point out the fact that nobody ever use the drones on the Caracal in dps graphs for example.


That was true a long time ago.
Now Amarr have Armor tanked ships that uses Drone or Missile in each hull class.
That is 3 weapons systems and you need both armor and shield tank considering the current kite friendly meta, specialy on smaller hulls.

Caldari have shield tanked missiles and hybrid ships in each class. With drones used as support on bigger hulls like for Minmatar.
Well, I wasn't very clear : caldari and amarr both have clear lines of ships. You have pure missile ships and pure hybrid ships with caldari, and pure laser ships with amarr.

The support drones on larger ships don't require top skills for you to use the ship unless you are completely alone, and now with active armor tank not killing your speed, amarr can kite without shield.

Drones are different though as they work a lot better with something else in your high slots to back them up.
Odithia
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#162 - 2013-12-09 15:27:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Odithia
Dragoon, Arbitrator, prophecy, Armageddon, Pilgrim and Curse are Drone bonussed Amarr ship that don't recieve laser bonus. Think gallente with wear.

Malediction, Vengeance, Heretic and Sacrilege are Missile only ships (think armor tanked caldari). They don't have kinetic only damage bonus though.
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#163 - 2013-12-09 19:00:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcus Walkuris
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Odithia wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:


Caldari and Amarr ships are very specialized, with now the exception of amarr drone ships, they only need one type of tank and one weapon. Drones as frigate defense don't have the importance of a primary weapon system. And to prove it, I'd point out the fact that nobody ever use the drones on the Caracal in dps graphs for example.


That was true a long time ago.
Now Amarr have Armor tanked ships that uses Drone or Missile in each hull class.
That is 3 weapons systems and you need both armor and shield tank considering the current kite friendly meta, specialy on smaller hulls.

Caldari have shield tanked missiles and hybrid ships in each class. With drones used as support on bigger hulls like for Minmatar.
Well, I wasn't very clear : caldari and amarr both have clear lines of ships. You have pure missile ships and pure hybrid ships with caldari, and pure laser ships with amarr.

The support drones on larger ships don't require top skills for you to use the ship unless you are completely alone, and now with active armor tank not killing your speed, amarr can kite without shield.

Drones are different though as they work a lot better with something else in your high slots to back them up.


You are truly going full circle. For some mysterious reason other factions can go with minimal drone skills (just like I said you can with gallente). I already told you there are clear hybrid ships and clear drone ships for gallente and drones are also the most common secondary form of dps for all ships, like I said before THE fastest progression.
It is impossible to discuss anything with you since your argument is always changing slightly to look like what the other person says. I've seen this kind of stuff a lot and people that do that just can not be wrong.

But since I have to spell it out.
Pure hybrids in order: Atron, incursus,federation navy comet, enyo, taranis, thorax, diemos, phobos,talos, brutix/navy, hyperion astarte, megathron/navy, kronos.
Pure drones: Tristan, vexor/navy, ishtar, myrmidon, eos, dominix.
Mixes:Tristan, algos, vexor, ishtar, navy domi, eos.

And realistically only adding minmatar ships skills, a minimal investment really; daredevil, vigilant, vindicator for pure hybrids.


Drone boats are tricky, you either go sentries on them or brawler fit them with drones that don't really function anymore. They have bonuses for hybrids but more to facilitate them to be secondary dps like drones on a typical gunboat. Which does not make gunboats drone boats, so it is hard to call something pure drones but stat-wise they are most commonly flown that way because they do better that way since drones ask for a lot of fitting the high slots usually going first to reps and drone links. Therefor pure "drone boats" and "mixed boats" overlap.
Pure drones: Tristan, vexor/navy, ishtar, myrmidon, eos, dominix.
Mixes:Tristan, algos, vexor, ishtar, eos, navy domi. I would add hyperion and navy mega, but high drone-skill is a given for Battle-Ships even if they can fit 5 sentries there are plenty of boats that can squeeze 4 and some 5 but you don't call them hybrids, they're BS.

Edit:Realistically the comet is a mix yes, one of my not so familiar ships but a drop in the bucket.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#164 - 2013-12-09 19:46:33 UTC
Marcus Walkuris wrote:
You are truly going full circle. For some mysterious reason other factions can go with minimal drone skills (just like I said you can with gallente). I already told you there are clear hybrid ships and clear drone ships for gallente and drones are also the most common secondary form of dps for all ships, like I said before THE fastest progression.
It is impossible to discuss anything with you since your argument is always changing slightly to look like what the other person says. I've seen this kind of stuff a lot and people that do that just can not be wrong.
So a comet with 3 drones can go without them fine ? Whereas a slicer needs more than lasers ?

Of all the ships you listed, only the Atron don't have drones. For a frigate, one drone is useful. You can go without exactly like you can go in a minmatar ship without anything in your utility high slots.

For a cruiser without 50MB bandwidth, ECM drones will often be as good or better than any other light drones. I'm not talking pve here. With 50MB, the dps medium drones add is significant so it's a choice between utility of light drones or might against cruisers.

Same goes for BS. Drones are pure utility, not main weapon, unless you have enough of them to really supplement your main weapon.

And to reach the insane dps values all people dream when looking at gallente ships, you need top skills for both blasters and drones. Meanwhile, for caldari ships, you never see anyone using their drones in dps graphs. Why ?
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#165 - 2013-12-09 19:59:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcus Walkuris
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Marcus Walkuris wrote:
You are truly going full circle. For some mysterious reason other factions can go with minimal drone skills (just like I said you can with gallente). I already told you there are clear hybrid ships and clear drone ships for gallente and drones are also the most common secondary form of dps for all ships, like I said before THE fastest progression.
It is impossible to discuss anything with you since your argument is always changing slightly to look like what the other person says. I've seen this kind of stuff a lot and people that do that just can not be wrong.
So a comet with 3 drones can go without them fine ? Whereas a slicer needs more than lasers ?

Of all the ships you listed, only the Atron don't have drones. For a frigate, one drone is useful. You can go without exactly like you can go in a minmatar ship without anything in your utility high slots.

For a cruiser without 50MB bandwidth, ECM drones will often be as good or better than any other light drones. I'm not talking pve here. With 50MB, the dps medium drones add is significant so it's a choice between utility of light drones or might against cruisers.

Same goes for BS. Drones are pure utility, not main weapon, unless you have enough of them to really supplement your main weapon.

And to reach the insane dps values all people dream when looking at gallente ships, you need top skills for both blasters and drones. Meanwhile, for caldari ships, you never see anyone using their drones in dps graphs. Why ?


If you think people don't value the drones on a caracal then you are dead wrong. Very nice example since caldari have the least drones of all. The fact there is 1 drone on a frigate does not a drone boat make. Nor the need for solid drones as I already stated EVERY faction requires basic drone skills. Almost all cruisers can field a healthy flight of light drones and I've stressed drones as utility not necessity. You decided to start this debate with saying Gallente have the correction:Bad progression due to their inability to function without good drone AND hybrid skills. Which is plain false, and now you argue my point like it is your own yet again.
Yes an optimal thorax has good drones, so does an omen, my point not yours. Does it put a kink in progression more then other factions. Not even close. P.S. You really make it sound as if the Comet breaks progression, you seriously want to argue that new Gallente players struggle to get over the "Comet" SP hurdle?? Come on...
Incindir Mauser
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#166 - 2013-12-10 02:50:16 UTC
While this thread has provided an interesting and thought provoking read, but I think the lumberjacks are up to their derrieres in bears and have forgotten that the original plan was to cut down a tree.

Missiles as a weapon system are inherently linked to Caldari ships. Yes there are exceptions with other races having missile bonused hulls. Oddly these "off racial" hulls like the Talwar, Cyclone, Prophecy, etc often have better hull bonuses than dedicated Caldari hulls and do the job of being a missile platform better than Caldari ships.

Caldari ships tend to focus on range and kinetic damage bonuses. Gallente ships, all have large kinetic resists. Why the Caldari are still making ships that are bonused to shoot into their sworn enemies largest resist buffer is beyond me. No other race is shackled with a damage bonus inherent to only one damage type with one weapon system. It would be like a Hurricane hull being bonused for 10% per level with explosive projectile ammo. Only.

Range generally doesn't mean much to a pilot heavily invested in missiles, because sniping with missiles is largely pointless. Even sniping from extreme ranges with something like a Rohk or Naga is generally not done because on-grid combat scanning negates any advantages beyond 149,999km. This is coupled with the often mentioned fact that missiles have flight time, and can be outrun quite easily.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosive_velocity

Then you get into CCP's idea of how explosions should work in space.

As you look at larger and larger missile systems available the warhead explosion radius gets bigger and bigger, and the explosion velocity gets slower and slower. Eve is not real. At least when it comes to explosions in space. With no atmospheric limitations, explosion velocities with solid explosives would have no limiting factors on how fast they can detonate. These would only be limited by the warhead's casing.

Typical detonation velocities in gases range from 1800 m/s to 3000 m/s. Typical velocities in solid explosives often range beyond 4000 m/s to 10300 m/s.

This is a hard science fact. Detonations happen at these speeds.

The vacuum of space would present zero resistance to the expanding gases and fragments of a warhead, and all missile warheads would be inherently explosive and deal explosive damage. Apparently the science of shaped explosive charges was lost to the ravages of time and nobody has figured out that if you make a copper cone and slap some plastique behind it, when detonated it that it cuts through armor like butter.

This isn't even touching absurdities like Capital missile systems firing ammo that is quite literally the same size as a Saturn V rocket. Yet they do pipsqueak damage and can't seem to muster enough horsepower to get themselves moving faster than a slow-moving Titan in vacuum. The Saturn V was capable of moving tons into low orbit at something like Mach 25.

Someone in my corporation who is far better at napkin math than I basically stated that getting hit by something that massive going that fast carrying 50 tons of sand, let alone a warhead, would have the same kinetic force as half a kiloton of TNT.

If CCP wants to "fix missiles" at least apply a little real world science to them first....
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#167 - 2013-12-10 04:44:58 UTC
If you want defender missiles to be worth something other than "crap to reprocess" then one simple change is all you need: Make them target any enemy missiles that get in range of you or anyone in your fleet.

Suddenly having a Corax packed with all defender launchers as part of your fleet lineup becomes handy, doesn't it?

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Odithia
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#168 - 2013-12-10 10:51:21 UTC
Incindir Mauser wrote:
While this thread has provided an interesting and thought provoking read, but I think the lumberjacks are up to their derrieres in bears and have forgotten that the original plan was to cut down a tree.

Missiles as a weapon system are inherently linked to Caldari ships. Yes there are exceptions with other races having missile bonused hulls. Oddly these "off racial" hulls like the Talwar, Cyclone, Prophecy, etc often have better hull bonuses than dedicated Caldari hulls and do the job of being a missile platform better than Caldari ships.

Caldari ships tend to focus on range and kinetic damage bonuses. Gallente ships, all have large kinetic resists. Why the Caldari are still making ships that are bonused to shoot into their sworn enemies largest resist buffer is beyond me. No other race is shackled with a damage bonus inherent to only one damage type with one weapon system. It would be like a Hurricane hull being bonused for 10% per level with explosive projectile ammo. Only.

Range generally doesn't mean much to a pilot heavily invested in missiles, because sniping with missiles is largely pointless. Even sniping from extreme ranges with something like a Rohk or Naga is generally not done because on-grid combat scanning negates any advantages beyond 149,999km. This is coupled with the often mentioned fact that missiles have flight time, and can be outrun quite easily.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosive_velocity

Then you get into CCP's idea of how explosions should work in space.

As you look at larger and larger missile systems available the warhead explosion radius gets bigger and bigger, and the explosion velocity gets slower and slower. Eve is not real. At least when it comes to explosions in space. With no atmospheric limitations, explosion velocities with solid explosives would have no limiting factors on how fast they can detonate. These would only be limited by the warhead's casing.

Typical detonation velocities in gases range from 1800 m/s to 3000 m/s. Typical velocities in solid explosives often range beyond 4000 m/s to 10300 m/s.

This is a hard science fact. Detonations happen at these speeds.

The vacuum of space would present zero resistance to the expanding gases and fragments of a warhead, and all missile warheads would be inherently explosive and deal explosive damage. Apparently the science of shaped explosive charges was lost to the ravages of time and nobody has figured out that if you make a copper cone and slap some plastique behind it, when detonated it that it cuts through armor like butter.

This isn't even touching absurdities like Capital missile systems firing ammo that is quite literally the same size as a Saturn V rocket. Yet they do pipsqueak damage and can't seem to muster enough horsepower to get themselves moving faster than a slow-moving Titan in vacuum. The Saturn V was capable of moving tons into low orbit at something like Mach 25.

Someone in my corporation who is far better at napkin math than I basically stated that getting hit by something that massive going that fast carrying 50 tons of sand, let alone a warhead, would have the same kinetic force as half a kiloton of TNT.

If CCP wants to "fix missiles" at least apply a little real world science to them first....

Also I want my rail guns and lazors to hit at 100.000km+.

Current air to air missiles deals pure kinetic damages, anti satellite missiles are also pure kinetic but in a different way.
One goes for proximity fuse and fragmentation charge, the other for direct impact.

The ability to choose from any damage type is already an enormous advantage, even if damage bonus don't apply anymore.
And damage resistance for every race is tailored to their enemy lore wise.
Luwc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#169 - 2013-12-10 13:24:12 UTC


TL'DR but from what I got
OPs Rage is a rage I can agree on.

Especially RHML are ******* useless.

http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#170 - 2013-12-10 13:50:52 UTC
Incindir Mauser wrote:
While this thread has provided an interesting and thought provoking read, but I think the lumberjacks are up to their derrieres in bears and have forgotten that the original plan was to cut down a tree.

Missiles as a weapon system are inherently linked to Caldari ships. Yes there are exceptions with other races having missile bonused hulls. Oddly these "off racial" hulls like the Talwar, Cyclone, Prophecy, etc often have better hull bonuses than dedicated Caldari hulls and do the job of being a missile platform better than Caldari ships.

Caldari ships tend to focus on range and kinetic damage bonuses. Gallente ships, all have large kinetic resists. Why the Caldari are still making ships that are bonused to shoot into their sworn enemies largest resist buffer is beyond me. No other race is shackled with a damage bonus inherent to only one damage type with one weapon system. It would be like a Hurricane hull being bonused for 10% per level with explosive projectile ammo. Only.

Range generally doesn't mean much to a pilot heavily invested in missiles, because sniping with missiles is largely pointless. Even sniping from extreme ranges with something like a Rohk or Naga is generally not done because on-grid combat scanning negates any advantages beyond 149,999km. This is coupled with the often mentioned fact that missiles have flight time, and can be outrun quite easily.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosive_velocity

Then you get into CCP's idea of how explosions should work in space.

As you look at larger and larger missile systems available the warhead explosion radius gets bigger and bigger, and the explosion velocity gets slower and slower. Eve is not real. At least when it comes to explosions in space. With no atmospheric limitations, explosion velocities with solid explosives would have no limiting factors on how fast they can detonate. These would only be limited by the warhead's casing.

Typical detonation velocities in gases range from 1800 m/s to 3000 m/s. Typical velocities in solid explosives often range beyond 4000 m/s to 10300 m/s.

This is a hard science fact. Detonations happen at these speeds.

The vacuum of space would present zero resistance to the expanding gases and fragments of a warhead, and all missile warheads would be inherently explosive and deal explosive damage. Apparently the science of shaped explosive charges was lost to the ravages of time and nobody has figured out that if you make a copper cone and slap some plastique behind it, when detonated it that it cuts through armor like butter.

This isn't even touching absurdities like Capital missile systems firing ammo that is quite literally the same size as a Saturn V rocket. Yet they do pipsqueak damage and can't seem to muster enough horsepower to get themselves moving faster than a slow-moving Titan in vacuum. The Saturn V was capable of moving tons into low orbit at something like Mach 25.

Someone in my corporation who is far better at napkin math than I basically stated that getting hit by something that massive going that fast carrying 50 tons of sand, let alone a warhead, would have the same kinetic force as half a kiloton of TNT.

If CCP wants to "fix missiles" at least apply a little real world science to them first....


If you apply real math.. a 1400mm shell loaded witha a Nuke (as some of the variants are by description) shoudl pulverize a dread.

Eve has no space for science.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Baron' Soontir Fel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#171 - 2013-12-10 16:32:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Baron' Soontir Fel
Odithia wrote:

Also I want my rail guns and lazors to hit at 100.000km+.

Current air to air missiles deals pure kinetic damages, anti satellite missiles are also pure kinetic but in a different way.
One goes for proximity fuse and fragmentation charge, the other for direct impact.

The ability to choose from any damage type is already an enormous advantage, even if damage bonus don't apply anymore.
And damage resistance for every race is tailored to their enemy lore wise.


LR Missiles have similar range to the LR Turrets.
150mm Railgun? Hits out to 32km. Light Missiles? Hit out to 42km.

250mm Railgun? Hits out to 71km. HML? 63km.

Yea, these long ranges man. I wish guns could hit things at missile range... oh wait.
Incindir Mauser
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#172 - 2013-12-10 16:47:14 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:


If you apply real math.. a 1400mm shell loaded witha a Nuke (as some of the variants are by description) shoudl pulverize a dread.

Eve has no space for science.


Logically, yes.

With 1400's you're basically firing a VW beetle packed with a nuke that would conservatively have a blast radius of a kilometer or more depending on yield. With a shell that size it is possible to pack it with multiple warheads, ala MIRV, that would all have the same payload potential as one small one kiloton tactical nuke. And yes if you go off of destructive potential a 1400mm shell simply packed with a shaped charge or simply a conventional warhead would have more destructive potential than one low yield nuke.

Weapon systems in this game could make a little more sense given the sheer size of some of the projectiles that we hurl at each other.

Ginger Barbarella
#173 - 2013-12-10 17:09:22 UTC
Incindir Mauser wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:


If you apply real math.. a 1400mm shell loaded witha a Nuke (as some of the variants are by description) shoudl pulverize a dread.

Eve has no space for science.


Logically, yes.

With 1400's you're basically firing a VW beetle packed with a nuke that would conservatively have a blast radius of a kilometer or more depending on yield. With a shell that size it is possible to pack it with multiple warheads, ala MIRV, that would all have the same payload potential as one small one kiloton tactical nuke. And yes if you go off of destructive potential a 1400mm shell simply packed with a shaped charge or simply a conventional warhead would have more destructive potential than one low yield nuke.

Weapon systems in this game could make a little more sense given the sheer size of some of the projectiles that we hurl at each other.



If CCP were to do that then collisions should be quite possible. Imagine the possibilities... Pirate

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Incindir Mauser
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#174 - 2013-12-10 18:52:32 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Incindir Mauser wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:


If you apply real math.. a 1400mm shell loaded witha a Nuke (as some of the variants are by description) shoudl pulverize a dread.

Eve has no space for science.


Logically, yes.

With 1400's you're basically firing a VW beetle packed with a nuke that would conservatively have a blast radius of a kilometer or more depending on yield. With a shell that size it is possible to pack it with multiple warheads, ala MIRV, that would all have the same payload potential as one small one kiloton tactical nuke. And yes if you go off of destructive potential a 1400mm shell simply packed with a shaped charge or simply a conventional warhead would have more destructive potential than one low yield nuke.

Weapon systems in this game could make a little more sense given the sheer size of some of the projectiles that we hurl at each other.



If CCP were to do that then collisions should be quite possible. Imagine the possibilities... Pirate


And then CCP's hardware would suffer a meltdown on the scale of Chernobyl.

But yes, strapping corpses to the hull of a ship and screaming "ramming speed!" at the top of my lungs to the rhythm of war drums would indeed be awesome.

The majority of gripes about missiles come mostly from Caldari pilots. Myself included. With the prevalence of range and kinetic only damage bonuses on the hulls leave us feeling shoehorned into only using that damage type because the paper DPS says it's "better". In actuality I default to using Thermal or Explosive ammo as it's the most common resist holes that I run across.

If I were responsible for rebalancing, Caldari ships would see the kinetic damage bonus replaced with velocity bonuses. Hulls like the Tengu don't really need to be double dipping on both rate of fire and a damage bonus to a singular damage type.
Alcorak
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#175 - 2013-12-13 18:07:54 UTC
I'm seeing differentiation between arty and AC in this thread, but then all i see is a comparison to 'missles'... theres more than one ya know. not many but they do exist.

First I'm going to assume we're talking about HAMs in PvP since HMs are a joke and there's been discussion on this.

I use HAMs a lot, and I love the damned things. I hate the 10 sec reload when guns reload in 5 (not that I ever really need to reload for anything other than damage type). I think T1 and faction ammo are great. Hell I even think that rage ammo works right. Precision is a damned mess and needs its explosion radius reduced a bit (5-10%?) to be useful. Like the guns ppl have been saying, fit a tackle. If you're going to PvP within 20km and dont fit a web/point(s), you're a fool.

range - 15km. Thats it. No amount of ammo switching or modules are going to allow you to apply any damage past that. Client shows 20km, but thats neglecting missile acceleration. There arn't any 'tracking computers' for missiles (there should be).

cane vs drake: A T2 HAM launcher with navy scourge ammo (I'm not going to use rage stats since they're overinflated) gets 50dps. A T2 autocannon gets 69dps up close, and can hang with the drake out to ~7km. Again, this is without any support mods. Seems fair to me. In reality, a HAM engagement takes place at knife range (web/scram is necessary to maintain missile damage application) so now that 15km range is really only 10km (web) is really 7.5 b/c you want to KEEP that web. Now AC out-damages missiles. Thats still OK b/c a drake out-tanks a cane so badly that it still wins every time (see also: resists). Looking at the weapons solely though, I'd have to say in practice, AC is better. We're within web range, ACs will get their range vs HAMs.

artillary? obviously we're comparing to HMs now (do we really have to?). Well lets see, by the numbers, within 7km the arty wins, and outside of 20km, the HMs win. (I'm using T2 650's on the arty). With 720's the arty dps wins within 20km, and can hang within 55km. Now consider missile flight time, and the fact that missiles do a lot less damage to moving targets (which, btw, probably are not webbed at this range) and you'll find that arty wins at basically any range. This was done using a cane w/ lvl 5's so the dps numbers for arty are definitely inflated....so are the missiles, though not by equal margin.

Size - big missiles dont damage small things (that static damage being mentioned is not so static, missiles also have drawbacks). If you're shoting HMs or HAMs, you're not killing frigs at any range. I'm not sure what this nonsense is about not hitting cruisers - I've had no issue obliterating sabres, ruptures, thoraxes etc. in short order with HAMs. Certainly not single-volley, but they're not an alpha weapon.

Speed - Missiles deal less damage to fast things. AB, MWD....doesn't matter, if its cruising, you're not going to have a good day. Transversal? irrelevent - the fact that it's moving AT ALL is going to reduce your dps (still not getting those frigs). I imagine that hitting cruisers and destroyers for damage would probably be tough without that full tackle. Be prapared to lose 1/3 dps to a MWD and lose 2/3 to AB. With good orbits, the guns could lose similar percentages, but good piloting can mitigate transversal advantages.

Mods - guns have better mods. Low slot mods are fairly even, but tracking computers can really change a lot of the math on who's dealing more damage at what range.

Bonuses - gunships get beter ones, at least for dealing damage. optimals, RoF, dmg, tracking, falloff..... usually 2 of these on a ship. Missile ships..... well they can take a lot of gunshots and deal pretty good kinetic damage up close.

Obvoulsly the above comparisons are limited in scope and only cover medium projectiles and missiles. Hybrids perform exceptionally well as we know, and yes I pretty much ignored lasers also.

There are missiles other than HAM and HM? YES!

Light missiles are really good - maybe even too good. Cruise missiles though, are awful and I have no idea why anyone is saying otherwise. Want a 326 dps battleship? Go for it! Good for PvE you say? you're lucky to get a 4M bounty tick in lvl 4's. Get a sentry domi. PvP? Please link your relevent cruise missle killmails; I would love to see them. Yes, you can shoot from the edge of the grid if you sebo the range. However, a carrier could probably align and warp before your first volley actually hit. At around 80km, you'll actually have 2 volleys in space at one time (and cry as your target warps off.....or maybe it pops (certainly not from your cruise missiles) and you wasted that second volley on nothing?). Get a Rokh, or a sentry domi if you want to snipe. Yes, Rockets are pathetic and could use a boost. Rapid launchers..... haven't tried them but both varieties sound horrid with gimped magazines and long reloads. Torpedoes: These can be pretty solid, but are rarely used in non-SB PvP because 1) nobody 1v1's in BS and 2) there aren't enough torp boats to build a doctrine and 3) they aren't flexible. They can hit BS and bigger...or if you paint the hell out of a BC. You can just forget about shooting logi. and 4) range. and 5) Blasters are a thing.

TL;DR

HAMs are pretty close to balanced. Light missiles might be too good. Festival launchers are OP and need to be nerfed. No other missiles are viable. Imagine having projectiles trained and having the only good weapons be 280mm Howitzer Artillary II (small, long range) and 425mm Autocannon II (medium, short range), with an almost viable but never used 800mm Repeating Artillary II (Large, short range). Oh, and don't forget to take away all that variety in gun sizes (launchers don't have that).

you see a drake (assume HAMs), a caracal (also HAMs), a corax (light missiles) merlin, crow (also light missiles), raven (LOL)
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#176 - 2013-12-15 02:58:21 UTC
Wow, we've got Rab See and Bouh in this thread? I feel very stupider much already. :)

In the majority of cases medium missiles and torps don't apply for **** with a fit similar to a gun boat. The only people that are so violently shitting themselves to scream otherwise are turret pilots and EFT warriors.

Have a nice day
Humang
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#177 - 2013-12-15 16:41:47 UTC
Alcorak wrote:
Lots of words, didnt want to page stretch, sorry
I would believe that rockets are fine for their intended purpose (brawling with Blasters and AC turrets) as you can effectively sit outside their effective range, but still kite within point range, or orbit up-close if against sniping turrets. Would agree though that lasers do tend to trump them in a few cases.

Lights just need a little less effectiveness (eg increased explosion radius maybe)
And while on the subject, RLML are just plain broken now, there is no longer an effective missile platform for cruisers to engage both frigs and other cruisers (see AC and Blasters) give us back our reload time and tac on a ship velocity reduction while active or something, or at lest give us something that can work on both hulls[/rant]

But to continue, as everyone has already stated, it's just the damage application that is the issue with missiles, in comparison to the balance between the pros & cons of missiles.

  • Consistent, but with average damage
  • Effective at all ranges, but with a delay
  • Selectable damage type, but with longer reloads

The list could go on, but in terms of mechanics, I can't offer any ideas.

However, one thing I would advocate would be the removal of the explosion velocity factor of missiles (realistically the numbers should be in the thousands not the hundreds, so possible for maybe a MWD frig at max velocity, but just plain stupid for a cap to "speed tank" citadel missiles)

The only factors that should play a role is the ships size and the missiles explosion radius, but this would probably mean a large rework to balance missiles again. (and could be a big problem for capital missiles being possibly OP)

One can dream...

TLDR;

  • REMOVE explosion velocity factor, it's unnecessarily and just unrealistic.
  • Modify damage application equation (see above point).
  • Some missile system between heavy and light missiles

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Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#178 - 2013-12-15 19:32:50 UTC
Odithia wrote:
DHB WildCat wrote:


Whats your take on that?

And I want my lazor to track and deal top damage from 0 all the way to 2x fallof.
Missiles need to have different behavior than turret, this part is actually kinda ballanced.


Btw while we're talking missiles : I want my tracking disruptor to mess with missile guidance.



They do mess with missile, I get a range reduction which heavy missile already can't hit a target at 60km maxed thanks to the missile nerf, and now sansha further crimp that range on me. Whole reason heavies got hit was tengu was getting 100 in their pvp 100ab fits. Than another patch hit the tracking disrupter vs missile while it may seem minor to cruise missile it gets more notice at shorter range missile

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#179 - 2013-12-15 19:37:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Agondray
Humang wrote:
Alcorak wrote:
Lots of words, didnt want to page stretch, sorry
I would believe that rockets are fine for their intended purpose (brawling with Blasters and AC turrets) as you can effectively sit outside their effective range, but still kite within point range, or orbit up-close if against sniping turrets. Would agree though that lasers do tend to trump them in a few cases.

Lights just need a little less effectiveness (eg increased explosion radius maybe)
And while on the subject, RLML are just plain broken now, there is no longer an effective missile platform for cruisers to engage both frigs and other cruisers (see AC and Blasters) give us back our reload time and tac on a ship velocity reduction while active or something, or at lest give us something that can work on both hulls[/rant]

But to continue, as everyone has already stated, it's just the damage application that is the issue with missiles, in comparison to the balance between the pros & cons of missiles.

  • Consistent, but with average damage
  • Effective at all ranges, but with a delay
  • Selectable damage type, but with longer reloads

The list could go on, but in terms of mechanics, I can't offer any ideas.

However, one thing I would advocate would be the removal of the explosion velocity factor of missiles (realistically the numbers should be in the thousands not the hundreds, so possible for maybe a MWD frig at max velocity, but just plain stupid for a cap to "speed tank" citadel missiles)

The only factors that should play a role is the ships size and the missiles explosion radius, but this would probably mean a large rework to balance missiles again. (and could be a big problem for capital missiles being possibly OP)

One can dream...

TLDR;

  • REMOVE explosion velocity factor, it's unnecessarily and just unrealistic.
  • Modify damage application equation (see above point).
  • Some missile system between heavy and light missiles



I would agree that explosion velocity could be removed under the effect the missile was a contact explosion, at the same time my military career and being TACOPS having to know aa missiles not every missile is a contact, some missiles explode at a distance causing a metal core of some type like copper is formed by a shaped explosive In a verity of shapes and sent through the target. So ccp would need to decide one or the other per missile type than they would behave differently. Technically the t2 fury would be similar to contact while a percision would be that of a shaped charge.

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
Jeb Vacano
Sovereignty Express
#180 - 2013-12-17 23:14:21 UTC
Maxor Swift wrote:
I know nothing about the under lying machanics of this game but what i do know is that if a shoot anything smaller than a stationary cruiser with HMs or HAMs i do effectively 0 damage.

And now that RLMLs are too painful to use, i have ZERO options below cruises good job CCP.


This is true, but at the same time, if my amar alt shoot at the same targets with a medium heavy beam laser my damage will be literally zero. Criticals don't do much good if i can't land a single shot. with .0093 rad/s tracking i would be lucky to hit a BS.

Lets try this. Omen vs. Carical maxed out skill identical hp with no resists. The carical will always hit at least for some damage, even if it is low. The omen will rarely if ever hit. That is if the omen can get within range. The carical has almost double the range of the omen so it's ability to hit is doubly screwed.

The real moral here is that drones are awesome and everything else can suck a big fat one. A flight of Heavy berserker II gets better tracking than most frig turrets and properly fitted drone BC will get better dps than most BS turrets or missiles. And they can switch to any dmg type in seconds. Any kind of ewar has little effect on them since they keep going even if i can't lock targets and have no cap.