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The Future of T3 Cruisers
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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#121 - 2013-12-10 01:34:42 UTC
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
Without rigs a proteus does 600dps with T1 ammo and runs 101k tank. Rigs are just nice things to have on T3s, they aren't where the force is coming from.

So what's the solution for the bricks then?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#122 - 2013-12-10 01:40:21 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
PvP is all well and nice - and should rightly be the focus of Eve...

With that said, if T3's (meaning Tengu's) are nerfed to the point where they suck at high-end PvE, the price will crash. As a player with over six years worth of SP, I will easily adapt and overcome. The howls from the majority will be tremendous if a nicely pimped Tengu cannot run a 10/10 or similar high-end PvE content. That's not an endorsement of solo PvE, just a statement of fact.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#123 - 2013-12-10 01:45:48 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:

Note - I don't fly T3's in PVP. I just don't want to see them nerfed again. Tengus already took a beating from the HML nerf.


I presume you mean pve tengus? All the tengus I ever encountered in pvp were either HAM/shield or ECM/armour. Did people use HM tengu fleets in 0.0 for long range dps? If so, I'd say this nerf was welcome. Ranged missile dps should be realm of the Raven etc.

[quote=FT Diomedes]


HML Tengus were a 0.0 doctrine prior to the HML nerf. It was the expensive version of Drake-fleet.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#124 - 2013-12-10 01:53:30 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
With that said, if T3's (meaning Tengu's) are nerfed to the point where they suck at high-end PvE, the price will crash.

And on one will fly them for the associated risk vs. reward (especially the SP loss).

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#125 - 2013-12-10 01:59:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Slots, power grid, CPU, cargo capacity, HP, and drone bay would be static features of the ships.

Yeah, I like the variable aspect of T3s as it keeps things a bit interesting (and you can run some unique fits).

By unique are you refering to the OP ones, or the completly useless ones?

Which ones are completely OP? The flying bricks?


Proteus, with 122K EHP, and 600 DPS while being T2 and meta 4 fit sounds balanced for a cruiser right? Or is that just unique?
No implants, drugs, or OGB either.


My cheapo T2 112k eHP Prophesy that costs like 75mil and does 350dps says yeah, that isn't that far out of line.

My Mryms used to crest 100k eHP with (bait) buffers and still throw out around 500 dps overheated

...both no drugs, implants or other silliness
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#126 - 2013-12-10 02:01:18 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:

Note - I don't fly T3's in PVP. I just don't want to see them nerfed again. Tengus already took a beating from the HML nerf.


I presume you mean pve tengus? All the tengus I ever encountered in pvp were either HAM/shield or ECM/armour. Did people use HM tengu fleets in 0.0 for long range dps? If so, I'd say this nerf was welcome. Ranged missile dps should be realm of the Raven etc.

[quote=FT Diomedes]


HML Tengus were a 0.0 doctrine prior to the HML nerf. It was the expensive version of Drake-fleet.




Tengu's are still a null doctine they are just rocking 250mm rails now because the 20% damage that HMLs lost, the rails got in return.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#127 - 2013-12-10 02:19:40 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Tengu's are still a null doctine they are just rocking 250mm rails now because the 20% damage that HMLs lost, the rails got in return.

Yeah, the heavy missile nerf made complete sense... Roll

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#128 - 2013-12-10 02:47:20 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
2000dps tank tengu can perma-tank (cap stable, not ASB). it's pricey, but that's not the point. This is too much for anything to perma-tank. Despite the fact that recon ships have paper advantages over T3s, it's only T3s that are used. This is, as has been mentioned before, because of their Herculean survivability.

There's a huge difference between a 250k+ EHP passive brick and a 2000+ DPS active tank. Namely that you'll be absolutely massacred by even a medium neutralizer or vampire.


Of course there is a difference. 250k ehp is not good for a cruiser to have - it's in pirate battleship territory. A 2k perms-tank is worse because at least another ship has an opportunity to eventually work through the 250k hit points. Against a 2k perms-tank, nothing has a reasonable chance of damaging the tengu unaided.

I have already pointed out that the only way to kill this ship in a 1:1 is with a neut ship. To anything else, it's essentially immune to the other ship's presence.

This is wrong. No pvp-capable ship should be able to perma-tank every subcap in the game indefinitely.



Tell that to Marauders.

T3s might be able to tank, but they won't do anything else if fit that way.

Harvey James wrote:

you're kind of skipping over there main strength ... T2 resists combined with resist bonused subs/ HP bonuses/ spider tank


Nobody spider tanks T3s other than in C5/C6 Ladar Sites

Arthur Aihaken wrote:

So Proteus and Legion bricks. How do you propose to address those without removing rig slots?


10% armor HP/level bonus to 5%. Problem solved.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Lai Dai Counterintelligence
#129 - 2013-12-10 03:01:30 UTC
The only kind of versatility that is valuable IMO is if I get to change my T3 fit while in space (with a combat timer on changing the fit so people can't exploit it by swapping their lows for warp core stabs mid-fight when they realise they can't win).

Otherwise I see no reason why I should risk double-triple the isk and a week's worth of skill training flying something that is crappier than a HAC. If it requires docking to change fits, I'd rather dock up and change into a HAC.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#130 - 2013-12-10 03:03:45 UTC
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:
The only kind of versatility that is valuable IMO is if I get to change my T3 fit while in space (with a combat timer on changing the fit so people can't exploit it by swapping their lows for warp core stabs mid-fight when they realise they can't win).

Otherwise I see no reason why I should risk double-triple the isk and a week's worth of skill training flying something that is crappier than a HAC. If it requires docking to change fits, I'd rather dock up and change into a HAC.

Mobile Depot?

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#131 - 2013-12-10 03:06:02 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Mobile Depot?

Not the same as being able to do it anywhere on the fly without tipping anyone off.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#132 - 2013-12-10 04:14:33 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Tengu's are still a null doctine they are just rocking 250mm rails now because the 20% damage that HMLs lost, the rails got in return.

Yeah, the heavy missile nerf made complete sense... Roll



At the time it certainly did, the fact was that if you didn't have a panic geddon or pulse poc drakes were doing battle ship DPS at better than short range battleship range with equivalent tanks.

There was NOTHING in the medium world even close to equivalent. Now buffing medium rails to where Brutix puts up 800DPS was a little heavy handed on both ends.....but yeah, heavies are pretty bad.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#133 - 2013-12-10 06:15:43 UTC
Onictus wrote:
There was NOTHING in the medium world even close to equivalent. Now buffing medium rails to where Brutix puts up 800DPS was a little heavy handed on both ends.....but yeah, heavies are pretty bad.

So what's the solution? Put heavy missiles back to where they were or just improve the damage application?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#134 - 2013-12-10 06:36:24 UTC
as a TECH3 it needs to be superior to the Tech 2 varients but thats because of the higher cost.

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#135 - 2013-12-10 06:58:51 UTC
Onictus wrote:
drakes were doing battle ship DPS

Oh **** off.
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#136 - 2013-12-10 07:00:09 UTC
ps, they are doing t2 and pirate first. and then mostlikly capitals befor they touch t3s.

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#137 - 2013-12-10 07:03:16 UTC
Sal Landry wrote:
Onictus wrote:
drakes were doing battle ship DPS

Oh **** off.


drakes.. i remember the old drake barely hit 450 dps. with hams which sacrifices alot of tank had to be OH'd to get to maybe 700ish dps.

i like the new nighthawk cause its come into line with sleipnir though sleppy is still the king but both can now do a modest 800-900 dps depending on fit/shineys.

havnt tried navy drake yet but i have my reservations about its effectivness, its most probably a mid range between drake and NH.

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#138 - 2013-12-10 07:04:46 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Tengu's are still a null doctine they are just rocking 250mm rails now because the 20% damage that HMLs lost, the rails got in return.

Yeah, the heavy missile nerf made complete sense... Roll



At the time it certainly did, the fact was that if you didn't have a panic geddon or pulse poc drakes were doing battle ship DPS at better than short range battleship range with equivalent tanks.

There was NOTHING in the medium world even close to equivalent. Now buffing medium rails to where Brutix puts up 800DPS was a little heavy handed on both ends.....but yeah, heavies are pretty bad.



gank brutix gets like 1300 dps so i dont know what your smokeing.

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#139 - 2013-12-10 07:47:15 UTC
Seranova Farreach wrote:
as a TECH3 it needs to be superior to the Tech 2 varients but thats because of the higher cost.


CCP disagrees with you very strongly.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#140 - 2013-12-10 09:15:44 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Onictus wrote:


... various comments ...



I hear where you're coming from but in practice it makes no difference that a rapier has a 20km range bonus over a loki. Almost all combat in wormholes takes place at range 0. The rapier will have to warp out or die. The loki won't.

150kehp and 1000dps on a proteus does not require slaves (although many WH fleet pilots will fit them).

2000dps tank tengu can perma-tank (cap stable, not ASB). it's pricey, but that's not the point. This is too much for anything to perma-tank.

Despite the fact that recon ships have paper advantages over T3s, it's only T3s that are used. This is, as has been mentioned before, because of their Herculean survivability.




and that is why I think t3 should loose all 3 rig slots. Since rigs slots are mostly used for tanking purposes.



and that would make all T3s half billion isk trash


Would not.. specially because you missed the part about buffing some of the subsystems. It woudl fix the major problem with T3.. insane buffers and active tanks and how easy they circunvent their intended limitations (fittings for example).

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"