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Why hi sec players will NOT move into low or null no matter how much you cry about it.

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Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#361 - 2011-11-21 14:56:47 UTC
Andski wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Tobias Sjodin wrote:
There is nothing more creative than the destruction of what other people love.



... yeah, takes a really creative mind to sit at a gate, breathing slowly with flu into someone's ear while you wait for someone to come through.
Then you shoot!
They are helpless.
You won before they even came through the gate!

Brilliant, absolutely forking brilliant. Such a risk taker you must be to do that! So daring!


confirming that all PvP takes place at gates


Well not all, but the one people are asking for... more juicy unable to fight back targets.
Freya Gleamingstar
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#362 - 2011-11-21 15:05:41 UTC
Staying constructive, would not moving all Level 4 Combat mission resource into Lowsec be in general beneficial for the community?

Earlier posts are right, there is a distinct lack of "Security" in Lowsec. We shouldnt be relying on NPC security in Lowsec anyway beyond ineffectual gateguns. Thriving mission areas (imagine 200 people from Umokka being in a Lowsec system, perhaps 150 genuine people, and a handful of traders and outlaws). The beauty of Lowsec would be the community being able to police it itself. Definitely an EvE style Wild West - everyone has a gun, most people willing to use it for the greater good if necessary. Might work, might not, who can say?

Could mean a new lease of life for Bandit Cartels and Anti-Pirate/Security Corporations, and perhaps encourage corps to branch out into Lowsec.

As it stands, theres little incentive to move from Highsec, when its so comfortable :)
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#363 - 2011-11-21 15:08:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaroslav Unwanted
@ Freya

So you basically want to expand null into low ? probably not gonna happen, not much resources for an high sec population out there.

And anyway if they try to "nerf" high sec. they would just lose large ammount of subs.. rough guess is about 70-90 percent.
Luh Windan
green fish hat bang bang
#364 - 2011-11-21 15:15:16 UTC
Freya Gleamingstar wrote:
Staying constructive, would not moving all Level 4 Combat mission resource into Lowsec be in general beneficial for the community?

Earlier posts are right, there is a distinct lack of "Security" in Lowsec. We shouldnt be relying on NPC security in Lowsec anyway beyond ineffectual gateguns. Thriving mission areas (imagine 200 people from Umokka being in a Lowsec system, perhaps 150 genuine people, and a handful of traders and outlaws). The beauty of Lowsec would be the community being able to police it itself. Definitely an EvE style Wild West - everyone has a gun, most people willing to use it for the greater good if necessary. Might work, might not, who can say?

Could mean a new lease of life for Bandit Cartels and Anti-Pirate/Security Corporations, and perhaps encourage corps to branch out into Lowsec.

As it stands, theres little incentive to move from Highsec, when its so comfortable :)


Perhaps there could be a way for a low sec corp to tax mission runners in return for security. It would need to be 'built in' because no one would trust one to one contracts I guess. It would not have to be like SOV but perhaps more like the new own-able PI customs stations - lowsecers could fight each other for the right to tax mission runners

Cyndre Valryssian
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#365 - 2011-11-21 17:11:28 UTC
Serene Repose wrote:
Well. I'll be hornswaggled. All that typing and you missed the point. Who took any moral ground? Guess again....intelligentsia, Marxist dialectic for what they identified to be an oppressive "class" whom they then exterminated. Might be a word. Might be a term of art. A little too didactic for my taste.

Oh, wait. I get it. Slam dunk with a one-liner (you may need the delete key here) and you don't have to consider the idea of the post. Right? Good one, Michael Jordan.


Oh dear how disappointing, it would appear I overestimated your intellectual prowess and you are little more than a common garden variety troll dressed as mutton!
I'll try be clearer as you seem a little slow

What you started in this thread was clearly designed from the outset to be provocative trolling. Certainly the title itself is a statement rather than a question itself brazen with contempt. Thus it is clear you have not come seeking reasoned discussion but rather smug aggrandization of what you present as facts laced with your own self conceit.

Amusingly you yourself in all that reading managed to miss the counter point which in itself was simple.

'If you don't like low sec or high sec don't go there but don't disparage those who seek to enrich the experience of their own game play in their respective environments.'

See not too hard to find is it?

You took the morale high ground (perhaps you need to look that one up), when you began disparaging destructive game play and those who engage in it as activities not undertaken by in your words ' Face it. More intelligent, and widely versed people require something a bit more intricate than pew pew to attract their interest. '

I'm almost offended at your ignorance here, I expected more.

Intelligentsia in the context I used it refers to a social class of people engaged in complex, mental and creative labor directed to the development and dissemination of culture. In my particular context it is being used in a derogatory manner as befits your own contempt for those whose opinions differ.
And yes it is indeed didactic.

The sad that is there is no idea of your post, it is as vacuous as you are arrogant and little more than a provocative troll. I clearly summarised the retort to your 'statement' (keep that one in mind next time) above.

Lets see if I can score you an own goal here with a proposition (You may need to log off here). I would humbly suggest that if learned discussion is your aim that perhaps you start with a question and then try (And I realise this will be challenging for you), to present a case fairly before inviting consideration.

But then you'd have to consider other peoples opinions. Right? Good one, Alan Shearer.
Titania Hrothgar
Nemesis Retribution
#366 - 2011-11-21 17:58:13 UTC
Freya Gleamingstar wrote:
Staying constructive, would not moving all Level 4 Combat mission resource into Lowsec be in general beneficial for the community?

Earlier posts are right, there is a distinct lack of "Security" in Lowsec. We shouldnt be relying on NPC security in Lowsec anyway beyond ineffectual gateguns. Thriving mission areas (imagine 200 people from Umokka being in a Lowsec system, perhaps 150 genuine people, and a handful of traders and outlaws). The beauty of Lowsec would be the community being able to police it itself. Definitely an EvE style Wild West - everyone has a gun, most people willing to use it for the greater good if necessary. Might work, might not, who can say?

Could mean a new lease of life for Bandit Cartels and Anti-Pirate/Security Corporations, and perhaps encourage corps to branch out into Lowsec.

As it stands, theres little incentive to move from Highsec, when its so comfortable :)


Turn low sec into high sec? Wouldn't that be the exact opposite of what the pirates want?

Level 4 security missions don't belong in low sec. Can't force the community to go into low sec. They have to WANT to go there and right now there isn't any reason for that to happen.

Good pilots belong in high sec. Evil pirates belong in low sec. Can't force good people to go into bad neighborhoods at night just so they can be robbed. Pirates want good pilots to go into low sec so they'll have people to rob and they don't want to lose their number one tool to do so- local. Doesn't work that way. As long as local exists, then a good number of people won't go there.

Moving all missions and asteroid fields and ice fields and even starbases to low sec as it is now would only make a LOT of people simply quit rather than go to low sec. I beginning to feel that the real carebears are the pirates and their damn local that they're so afraid of losing. As I said, until I can venture into low sec without letting everyone know immediately what I'm doing then I see no reason to venture there until I'm in one of those huge corporations for protection. It's just how this game is designed. Low sec is for corps, not solos unless you're evil.

All the world's a stage and all the men and women are the players.
Esan Vartesa
Samarkand Financial
#367 - 2011-11-21 18:12:27 UTC
luZk wrote:
Oh look he want's to be able to market pvp others but dont want to be regular pvp'ed by you!

If there was no destruction, there would be no reason to build new stuff.


*sigh*

One day people like this will be supplanted by people who measure progress by looking at what society as a whole has accomplished, rather than how they themselves measure up against their neighbors.

Well, one can only hope.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#368 - 2011-11-21 18:32:20 UTC
Elrich Kouvo wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
I just got back from 0.0 with a cargo space full of expensive drone goo.

Sometimes I come back with a mix of exploration stuff, sleeper goo, but I didn't get time to play much these last few months.

The expedition into 0.0 took roughly a month.

I used wormholes, and didn't have to pay more $$ for a "scout alt", nor deal with gank pipelines that, no matter how good you are at making bookmarks, you still get caught in eventually - the real good bubblers are on those pipelines.

I spent a few weeks bouncing around low class systems that my exploration ship can solo, then ended up in a null pocket that comprised a dead end off a serious gank pipeline in the curse region. I found a WH that put me on the other side of 0.0 - what looked like 60 jumps, into some russkie-controlled region full of drones. The first place was deserted, having been there a while and not seeing anybody else. The second had some Russian alliance guy alone in a Wyvern (a Wyvern, alone, out there... there was once a time when people would come in droves just to gank such a target - no wonder they are being nerfed out of PWNmobile status). After being there for a while, I found a WH that led to lowsec, but just two jumps from Caldari high sec 21 jumps from my home base.

If I did this the "conventional way", meaning occasionally pad someones killboard with my ships, I would lose how many?

Since this is a PVP game, don't I have the right to not want my ships on someone else's killboard?


Again, if you want things to change, there has to be a way to put an end, any kind of end, to these gank pipelines. I think the most game-changing way would be to let all ships to system-to-system dialed in hyperwarp. I think it's something that the leet 0.0 PVPers who say they want more targets can use to put their ISK where their keyboards have been. Most of 0.0 sits safely behind the Great Wall of Carebear, much of it gank pipelines and bubble camps.


If I hear one "oh, so you want people to go anywhere?" then all that means to me is that yes, there are people who claim that highsec should be nerfed into oblivion, but only want people to come out to their neck of the woods on the terms and wishes of those already there: as renters, cannon fodder, or targets.

The ship I use is a gimped exploration fit and it's been in service since spring of 2009. One thing and one thing only has kept it alive and it's spent a lot of time in WH space and 0.0: stay away from those gank pipelines. Period. I will probably loose it eventually, almost lost it to drones actually and came back from 0.0 via wormhole on this last trip with half structure - but I know there are good bubble camps, and there are bad ones, and I don't care the reason for it, if it's all about PVP, then I can say that I am winning in not getting on someone else's killboard but still accomplishing my missions.

The mechanics of gates, blobs, and bubbles comprises the Great Wall of Carebear and no matter what happens, if that does not change, this issue will not go away. Either CCP has to set us all free of these mechanics, in spite of the tears of the nullbears, or nothing changes.




While I disagree with your assessment of null sec mechanics, I must say you are an excellent example of a player that uses his wits and the vast array of options at his disposal to get where he wants to go on his own terms.

Well done, and an example to us all.

Yeah can you imagine what he did before WH space?



Faction Warfare and WITH THE SAME DARNED SHIP. Lol
(Didn't have grac cap upgrades then...)

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#369 - 2011-11-21 18:35:33 UTC
Quote:
What you started in this thread was clearly designed from the outset to be provocative trolling.


Bullshit hoss. Learn what trolling is. It is not posting something that you will know will **** people off, its posting something with the intent of pissing them off. Ironically most pirates have the intent of pissing you off. If you don't want to get called a pirate... here's a noble thought... dont be a pirate!

OP is not even politely telling them to **** off, OP is telling them his opinion as to why the majority of people don't want to play with them.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#370 - 2011-11-21 18:59:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Ptraci
Esan Vartesa wrote:

One day people like this will be supplanted by people who measure progress by looking at what society as a whole has accomplished, rather than how they themselves measure up against their neighbors.

Well, one can only hope.


Even this society is without final hope. Entropy will out, one way or another. So what does it matter, when no one will even be around to sift through our ashes? Build because you enjoy building - not for posterity. Because in the long run, we're all dead.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#371 - 2011-11-21 19:30:13 UTC
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
Andski wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Tobias Sjodin wrote:
There is nothing more creative than the destruction of what other people love.



... yeah, takes a really creative mind to sit at a gate, breathing slowly with flu into someone's ear while you wait for someone to come through.
Then you shoot!
They are helpless.
You won before they even came through the gate!

Brilliant, absolutely forking brilliant. Such a risk taker you must be to do that! So daring!


confirming that all PvP takes place at gates


Well not all, but the one people are asking for... more juicy unable to fight back targets.


Gates or stations for high sec and this thread is about high security space. Stations are even worse as it is usually targeting a particular poor sap that has no hope. What?

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#372 - 2011-11-21 19:59:04 UTC
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:

Well not all, but the one people are asking for... more juicy unable to fight back targets.


Most null gates are regional, and impossible to completely camp. Many gates are abondoned.

And this idea that every pipe has huge camps is just rediculous.

Hell the other day I DC'd and was separated from my fleet. The next day I log in to find myself 30 jumps in enemy null, with a fleet ship (no tackle and made for a specific purpose). I flet back gate to gate with nary a player in sight.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#373 - 2011-11-21 23:05:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
... and yet I come across eight guarded bubbles in 17 jumps, half of those jumps through low sec?

Yeah, fine when you are deep but going in or out, the spiders be getting in ye hair from everywhere!

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#374 - 2011-11-21 23:35:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Ptraci wrote:
Where are you hiding the buffalo, CCP? A few years ago there was buffalo everywhere you looked. Those were happy times. We could kill all the buffalo we wanted for as long as we wanted. Now I went and got myself an even bigger gun to kill buffalo. I come back, and the buffalo is gone. Where did you put it? I want my buffalo back! I want to kill buffalo again with my new gun!

Nice allegory. Except it's wrong.

I've been playing EVE for almost eight years. Back in those early times, the concept of the carebear didn't even exist. Everyone (or almost everyone) did a fair share of both pve and pvp. People needed to mine and rat to build up the economy and replace ship losses. Very few individuals were directly opposed to shooting other players' ships; they saw it as an inherent aspect of the game. Some people went to low-sec to rat and mine, while others tried to chase them down. Then in a few hours, you'd see the order reversed.

EVE's player base was growing exceptionally fast those days. For the first few years, the growth was exponential. Then, as EVE became a major MMO, it attracted the attention of both RMTers, and the general populace. As banner ads started appearing on sites like Penny Arcade and major gaming publications, more and more "temps" joined up. These weren't players who stuck with the game for many years; they were people who jumped from MMO to MMO, looking for quick new thrills. They didn't see the game for what it is, and so in times of hardship, they cried. Many changes were made to appease these people, at the expense of loyal customers who contributed to CCP with both guidance and stable subscriptions, both theirs and those of the friends they recruited by word of mouth.

So, why are you wrong? It's because a few years ago there were less buffalo than there are today. A few years ago, players were more emotionally prepared to face EVE's challenges. Players fought back when attacked, kills needed to be worked for, and the whole atmosphere of the game was simply tougher. Today, EVE is full of these "buffalo." They join the game in droves, and leave with their first Hulk losses. As CCP makes more and more changes to the game that serve to coddle the carebears, the mean old wolves will have more and more buffalo to hunt, not less. This is the reason why I, and many of my friends, left null and never looked back. Killing twenty buffalo a day is much more satisfying than killing (and dying to) one wolf a week.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Russell Casey
Doomheim
#375 - 2011-11-21 23:47:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Russell Casey
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
... and yet I come across eight guarded bubbles in 17 jumps, half of those jumps through low sec?

Yeah, fine when you are deep but going in or out, the spiders be getting in ye hair from everywhere!


That's why the null chokes need to go. Once you get past them there's literally hundreds of empty systems people could settle in far from the power blocs to build their own empires---but the problem is, they all use the same pipes for empire access so while a big alliance may not care who lives at the highsec exit, they will care who's using their low-null pipe since it's literally their lifeline.

The map needs a rework, imo, less of a flower, more like the rings of a tree with high in the "core" and low and null as the outer layers.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#376 - 2011-11-21 23:50:22 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Ptraci wrote:
Where are you hiding the buffalo, CCP? A few years ago there was buffalo everywhere you looked. Those were happy times. We could kill all the buffalo we wanted for as long as we wanted. Now I went and got myself an even bigger gun to kill buffalo. I come back, and the buffalo is gone. Where did you put it? I want my buffalo back! I want to kill buffalo again with my new gun!

Nice allegory. Except it's wrong.

I've been playing EVE for almost eight years. Back in those early times, the concept of the carebear didn't even exist. Everyone (or almost everyone) did a fair share of both pve and pvp. People needed to mine and rat to build up the economy and replace ship losses. Very few individuals were directly opposed to shooting other players' ships; they saw it as an inherent aspect of the game. Some people went to low-sec to rat and mine, while others tried to chase them down. Then in a few hours, you'd see the order reversed.

EVE's player base was growing exceptionally fast those days. For the first few years, the growth was exponential. Then, as EVE became a major MMO, it attracted the attention of both RMTers, and the general populace. As banner ads started appearing on sites like Penny Arcade and major gaming publications, more and more "temps" joined up. These weren't players who stuck with the game for many years; they were people who jumped from MMO to MMO, looking for quick new thrills. They didn't see the game for what it is, and so in times of hardship, they cried. Many changes were made to appease these people, at the expense of loyal customers who contributed to CCP with both guidance and stable subscriptions, both theirs and those of the friends they recruited by word of mouth.

So, why are you wrong? It's because a few years ago there were less buffalo than there are today. A few years ago, players were more emotionally prepared to face EVE's challenges. Players fought back when attacked, kills needed to be worked for, and the whole atmosphere of the game was simply tougher. Today, EVE is full of these "buffalo." They join the game in droves, and leave with their first Hulk losses. As CCP makes more and more changes to the game that serve to coddle the carebears, the mean old wolves will have more and more buffalo to hunt, not less. This is the reason why I, and many of my friends, left null and never looked back. Killing twenty buffalo a day is much more satisfying than killing (and dying to) one wolf a week.




Please list the appeasements.

Suicide ganking is going on and more so on the 29th.
There are still bubbles but I read that they didn't exist when the game started.
So I would like to know more about this talking point that you push, because you are pushing the same old boilerplate as I have seen many times.


I can outline this template:
The game was better before (begin) People of lesser coping skills (already a degregating approach to a certain type of player) are (insert problem they are having here) and CCP in order to (Appease, keep, shut them up, etc) made changes that (ruin, diminish, etc) the game.

I can base prescription drug commercials and political movements on that template alone. So there is a pattern here, and it's arguable, and becoming very transparent.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#377 - 2011-11-22 00:26:13 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Please list the appeasements.

Suicide ganking is going on and more so on the 29th.
There are still bubbles but I read that they didn't exist when the game started.
So I would like to know more about this talking point that you push, because you are pushing the same old boilerplate as I have seen many times.

Are you actually unaware, or are you just trying to get me to go on a quest to do some busy work? There have been multiple CONCORD, sec status, war, and aggression changes throughout the years that made the "sociopath's" life more difficult.

Actually, let me put it this way. You agree that, no matter how fair, the removal of insurance payouts for ganks is a nerf to suicide-ganking, right? Just because suicide-ganking will continue, maybe even on a larger scale, doesn't mean that an appeasement hasn't been made.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Jita Alt666
#378 - 2011-11-22 00:35:44 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:


Please list the appeasements.

Suicide ganking is going on and more so on the 29th.
There are still bubbles but I read that they didn't exist when the game started.
So I would like to know more about this talking point that you push, because you are pushing the same old boilerplate as I have seen many times.


I can outline this template:
The game was better before (begin) People of lesser coping skills (already a degregating approach to a certain type of player) are (insert problem they are having here) and CCP in order to (Appease, keep, shut them up, etc) made changes that (ruin, diminish, etc) the game.

I can base prescription drug commercials and political movements on that template alone. So there is a pattern here, and it's arguable, and becoming very transparent.



Yr/Appeasement
06 Tutorial
08 Tutorial expansion
11 Tutorial redevelopment
04 Capital Ships
05 Concord Buff
06 Contract warnings implemented
06 Removal of Remote Doomsday
07 Speed Nerf
08 Market purchase/sell 50% off of regional average warning
07 Removal of freeform contracts
11 Removal of insurance for concord violations...

This is not tears. Making the game more accessible makes the game bigger and means potential development of more things. Increasing revenue does mean dumbing things down.
Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#379 - 2011-11-22 00:57:13 UTC
tl;dr make nul sec more attractive. Do not make high sec ******.

Australian Fanfest Event https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=90062
nahtoh
Vega Farscape
#380 - 2011-11-22 00:59:22 UTC  |  Edited by: nahtoh
Famble wrote:
Time.

There's no place for a casual player in null. None.

If null is effectively endgame, and endgame requires a large, consistent time commitment (it has in every mmo I've ever played), and most Eve players are casual then I'm pretty sure we've arrived at the ultimate stalemate.


Crap, utter total crap.

Your not gonna own space without freinds a lot of freinds. But a casual player can quite happy survive in NPC 0.0. Been there done that. Get freindly witht the other locals (if you can)learn how to use the map, safes, pay attention, don't rat or mine in main pipes, etc.

You will sometimes get poped (it happens), you can be unlucky, you can end up just pissing someone off and reaping that peticular whirlwind.

It can be done.

Not every allaince is CTAs all the time, yes some with have a minimum lvl of ops or you xing up if hostiles roll through.

On the other hand if you want to own space you need to HTFU and defend it.

Oh in passing I DON'T CARE IF YOU STAY IN HIGHSEC, not a hunt for more targets/what ever bullshit reaason some of you will try and warp what I say to justify ignoring or twisting my points.

Casual play is possable in 0.0, its how i started out there.