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The great missile debate

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Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#141 - 2013-12-07 18:59:53 UTC
I don't understand why you are rehashing the same topic in a different form that I already replied to, Bouh. Sadly half this thread got deleted (little overzealous). But I've already told you that a tracking enhancing bonus is super rare on missile ships unlike gunnery ships. Further aggravating the fact we have no tracking modules for missile ships.
Aivo Dresden
State War Academy
Caldari State
#142 - 2013-12-07 19:08:51 UTC
Yea a module that increases explosion radius or speed would be ideal. It would make heavy missiles competitive. The problem then is that suddenly you have a module that applies to all missiles meaning that the ones that are good now, would be TOO good again. Rockets, Light, Cruise missiles, they would suddenly be overpowered because they can apply much more of their damage.

Personally I think just tweaking the explosion radius on heavy missiles a little and changing the 1-2 bonused hulls to some other bonus instead, would be a better solution.
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#143 - 2013-12-07 19:40:12 UTC
Tzar Sinak wrote:
I have been playing EVE for a long time now and every time a discussion about missile mechanics both good and bad occurs (and it occurs a lot) the thread becomes a compare and contrast of missiles/turrets. Interestingly the results are always the same: misunderstanding, hard feels, trash talk, misrepresentations, cries of anguish, ISD editing and hardened attitudes. All this because of a complaint about missile mechanics.

Neither turrets or missiles are perfect. Neither are balanced. Neither is the "perfect" weapon system and both need improvement. Hybrids were a joke, rails were awful, rockets were pathetic, T2 missile ammo was never used etc. but things are changed and with changes come more complaints. Thus the circle of EVE life continues.

Conclusion, getting into fights over things that will not be changed for a looooong time is not worth it. Getting into discussions about how to make the most of what you have until the change occurs is invaluable.


Excellent post, imo. And you raise a point that I've raised before by making it. Although gunnery has its issues what adds so much forgiveness to gunnery is the fact you have 3 weapon-systems sharing support skills. The missile tree has an insanely high amount of SP invested for its outcome. You hover between 3-6 times lower returns of SP spent using missiles. For example missile support 21x multiplier total (rank8 skill multiplier is a months time at perfect map/implants) target painting is 15+21=36x support skills vs 18x for gunnery of which many skills barely add to effective dps (can be skipped easily). That is the forgiving factor of gunnery, you don't need target painting and the support skills are shared by 3 platforms. So you have flexibility if something doesn't work. missiles casually have entire hull classes obsoleted.... So gunnery for the bargain price of a 18x multiplier total supporting 3 weapon platforms multiply that by 3 at the same price as missile support you would have to invest 63x for support and 45x to be able to fit tracking computers gyrowhathaveyou, for an equivalent training time to missile support you would be at a total of 108x or approximately 13 months and a week at PERFECT training time for support, not even mentioning the discrepancy in launcher skill training time. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3823191#post3823191 I've posted on this. In fact I think ill update it.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#144 - 2013-12-07 19:52:16 UTC
Marcus Walkuris wrote:
I don't understand why you are rehashing the same topic in a different form that I already replied to, Bouh. Sadly half this thread got deleted (little overzealous). But I've already told you that a tracking enhancing bonus is super rare on missile ships unlike gunnery ships. Further aggravating the fact we have no tracking modules for missile ships.
I already said where HAM can shine, even with the Caracal. I brought the CNI to show that even Caldari have solo missiles ships.

Because let's be honest, the only situations where medium missiles will struggle to kill a lone AB frigate are when you are alone.

The problem with missiles is that if you tweak them to hit frigates too hard, then missile ships become imune to tackle without working for it. If missiles were like CNI missiles, any missile ship would be basicaly imune to frigates because they would hit everything everywhere in point range. The only weapon able to do that right now are drones, and they have far less dps than missiles, and are destroyable.
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#145 - 2013-12-07 20:03:41 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
The only weapon able to do that right now are drones, and they have far less dps than missiles, and are destroyable.

Missile ships are also destroyable.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#146 - 2013-12-07 20:11:12 UTC
Marcus Walkuris wrote:
Excellent post, imo. And you raise a point that I've raised before by making it. Although gunnery has its issues what adds so much forgiveness to gunnery is the fact you have 3 weapon-systems sharing support skills. The missile tree has an insanely high amount of SP invested for its outcome. You hover between 3-6 times lower returns of SP spent using missiles. For example missile support 21x multiplier total (rank8 skill multiplier is a months time at perfect map/implants) target painting is 15+21=36x support skills vs 18x for gunnery of which many skills barely add to effective dps (can be skipped easily). That is the forgiving factor of gunnery, you don't need target painting and the support skills are shared by 3 platforms. So you have flexibility if something doesn't work. missiles casually have entire hull classes obsoleted.... So gunnery for the bargain price of a 18x multiplier total supporting 3 weapon platforms multiply that by 3 at the same price as missile support you would have to invest 63x for support and 45x to be able to fit tracking computers gyrowhathaveyou, for an equivalent training time to missile support you would be at a total of 108x or approximately 13 months and a week at PERFECT training time for support, not even mentioning the discrepancy in launcher skill training time. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3823191#post3823191 I've posted on this. In fact I think ill update it.
The skill question always makes me laugh.

First, missiles are comparable to drones in term of skill : long time training with huge bonuses comming from it (drone interfacing ?).

Secondly, gallente ships very often need both drones and gunnery to really shine whereas caldari ships at least have a choice. And minmatar are even worse with both armor and shield tank pretty much required to profit from their versatility and like gallente they have dual weapon systems ships.

But above all EVE is a game of patience and skill point. You'll have so many skills eventually you won't even know what to learn.
kurage87
EVE University
Ivy League
#147 - 2013-12-07 20:19:37 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Marcus Walkuris wrote:
I don't understand why you are rehashing the same topic in a different form that I already replied to, Bouh. Sadly half this thread got deleted (little overzealous). But I've already told you that a tracking enhancing bonus is super rare on missile ships unlike gunnery ships. Further aggravating the fact we have no tracking modules for missile ships.
I already said where HAM can shine, even with the Caracal. I brought the CNI to show that even Caldari have solo missiles ships.

Because let's be honest, the only situations where medium missiles will struggle to kill a lone AB frigate are when you are alone.

The problem with missiles is that if you tweak them to hit frigates too hard, then missile ships become imune to tackle without working for it. If missiles were like CNI missiles, any missile ship would be basicaly imune to frigates because they would hit everything everywhere in point range. The only weapon able to do that right now are drones, and they have far less dps than missiles, and are destroyable.

The CNI is not a solo ship, it's too slow. The Caracal itself was only just fast enough, it's main draw was the fact that it was a cheap as chips T1 cruiser, and the CNI is both far more expensive and even slower.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#148 - 2013-12-07 20:33:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
kurage87 wrote:
The CNI is not a solo ship, it's too slow. The Caracal itself was only just fast enough, it's main draw was the fact that it was a cheap as chips T1 cruiser, and the CNI is both far more expensive and even slower.
Check your numbers... The Caracal Navy Issue is faster than the Caracal with MWD on. Mass...
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#149 - 2013-12-07 21:28:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcus Walkuris
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
The skill question always makes me laugh.

First, missiles are comparable to drones in term of skill : long time training with huge bonuses comming from it (drone interfacing ?).

Secondly, gallente ships very often need both drones and gunnery to really shine whereas caldari ships at least have a choice. And minmatar are even worse with both armor and shield tank pretty much required to profit from their versatility and like gallente they have dual weapon systems ships.

But above all EVE is a game of patience and skill point. You'll have so many skills eventually you won't even know what to learn.


While I'm glad it makes you laugh, comedy aside drones aren't even close to missiles or gunnery. You see drones are THE universal secondary weapon-system for all factions bar none. Missiles rarely if ever make a secondary weapon, usually on Caldari and Minmatar hulls and really ineffective at that. Drones however are vital for larger ships ability to defend against frigates.
One drone type tracks like missiles, the other like gunnery. However their individual destructibility and travel-time really change their functionality/implementation far far away from missiles or gunnery. Sentries are stationary. Other drones are brawlers and can be really fragile have no place outside the smallest of gangs.

So sure EvE is just a giant pile of SP-spaghetti, if that makes sense for you go for it.
But to paint Gallente as the sad panda of SP is dishonest at best, often needing drones and gunnery is just not the case. Yes they have hulls that function with both but still have plenty of ships that focus on one. But gallente the very best progression. You unlock the vexor hull, profit, and go straight to the most OP space potatoe dominix, now you have drone skills which are needed by all races for cruiser and up, or you can ignore them and focus on hybrids and focus on the only faction with effective hybrid progression in all tiers. A useful hybrid boat in every hull class of which the BS can be flown with minimal drone skills for a long time.
Gallente:armor, drones, hybrids.
Caldari:Shields, missiles, hybrids, drones.
Minmatar:projectiles, missiles, drones, shields, armor. (and since recently a pretty broken hull progression).
Amarr: lasers, drones, missiles, armor.
Somehow you keep making other peoples points... Gallente have always had a very efficient SP progression.
kurage87
EVE University
Ivy League
#150 - 2013-12-07 21:35:09 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
kurage87 wrote:
The CNI is not a solo ship, it's too slow. The Caracal itself was only just fast enough, it's main draw was the fact that it was a cheap as chips T1 cruiser, and the CNI is both far more expensive and even slower.
Check your numbers... The Caracal Navy Issue is faster than the Caracal with MWD on. Mass...

Touche. The more I look at it the more I do actually like the look of it. But, someone who is a good and experienced missile pvp'er told me it was awful lol. Probably range and/or cap issues, looking at a fit I've put together. But I'll ask him.
Skwiche
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#151 - 2013-12-08 07:49:03 UTC
All that needs to be done is a small tweak to missile explosion velocity from what I can see with looking at missiles there is no problem with explosion radius that could just be my skills and implants all the explosion radius are fine enough to hit a stationary t1 ship of its class without issues the problem comes when the ships start to move and that is without said ship having any overdrives or speed rigs fitted so just a small tweak to explosion velocity or the affect that a ships speed has against a missile.


Saw something earlier about someone trying to take down a cruiser with torps no wonder your struggling they're designed to take down large targets like battleships or large battlecruisers.
Kenshi Hanshin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#152 - 2013-12-08 18:20:24 UTC
DHB WildCat wrote:
1) Selectable damage type is the ONLY saving grace for todays missile user. however CCP refuse to change the damn kinetic bonus to an universal one so we are forced to use kinetic if we want high damage..... however......

2) Gallente FOTM. T2 gallente have near 90% kinetic resists base.... freaking stupid. Missile boats now have to change damage type to either EM or Exp to do any sort of damage to them...... but wait......

3) RLML and RHML .... okay deimos on field switching to em damage.... 40 seconds later, you're either dead or ran away, cause you CANT change ammo types to be effective in 40 seconds. Or you can continue to shoot kinetic at the diemos as it laughs at you until you die.

4) CNR has more applicable damage to frigs and cruisers with cruise missiles than with RHML. This is stupid. Yes the ROF is faster on the RHML but how the heck is a BS sized weapon doing more per hit on a frig than a cruiser sized weapon!? WTF.

5) The Phoenix...... nuff said what a joke.

6) Torps even with a Vindi buddy webbing a hac you do jack all damage to it. Maybe we need to take a look at the size factor of ships and eliminating it as factor for missile damage, leaving speed and resistances the factors to missile damage. This would bring them in line with turrets and still be a little nerfed compared to them since a turret can still hit a ship for full effect based on transverse reguardless speed, while a missile would still be based on the speed. If a vindi can do full damage with neutrons to a frig sitting at zero why cant torps? Also doesnt it make sense that a larger explosion radius would in essence do more damage to an area than a smaller one?

I have a lot of other examples and references, I could go on for days. I just wish you guys would start taking some more outside input again. Your view on certain things are way to narrowed and focused to be able to see everything.

WildCat

I like your point 6!

Only factors for missiles should be resists and velocity if we are going to use the present equation in any form. Though I personally want it completely reworked. By someone that has an engineering and math background not CCP 40sec or CCP Fail.
Kenshi Hanshin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#153 - 2013-12-08 18:37:00 UTC
Marcus Walkuris wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
The skill question always makes me laugh.

First, missiles are comparable to drones in term of skill : long time training with huge bonuses comming from it (drone interfacing ?).

Secondly, gallente ships very often need both drones and gunnery to really shine whereas caldari ships at least have a choice. And minmatar are even worse with both armor and shield tank pretty much required to profit from their versatility and like gallente they have dual weapon systems ships.

But above all EVE is a game of patience and skill point. You'll have so many skills eventually you won't even know what to learn.


While I'm glad it makes you laugh, comedy aside drones aren't even close to missiles or gunnery. You see drones are THE universal secondary weapon-system for all factions bar none. Missiles rarely if ever make a secondary weapon, usually on Caldari and Minmatar hulls and really ineffective at that. Drones however are vital for larger ships ability to defend against frigates.
One drone type tracks like missiles, the other like gunnery. However their individual destructibility and travel-time really change their functionality/implementation far far away from missiles or gunnery. Sentries are stationary. Other drones are brawlers and can be really fragile have no place outside the smallest of gangs.

So sure EvE is just a giant pile of SP-spaghetti, if that makes sense for you go for it.
But to paint Gallente as the sad panda of SP is dishonest at best, often needing drones and gunnery is just not the case. Yes they have hulls that function with both but still have plenty of ships that focus on one. But gallente the very best progression. You unlock the vexor hull, profit, and go straight to the most OP space potatoe dominix, now you have drone skills which are needed by all races for cruiser and up, or you can ignore them and focus on hybrids and focus on the only faction with effective hybrid progression in all tiers. A useful hybrid boat in every hull class of which the BS can be flown with minimal drone skills for a long time.
Gallente:armor, drones, hybrids.
Caldari:Shields, missiles, hybrids, drones.
Minmatar:projectiles, missiles, drones, shields, armor. (and since recently a pretty broken hull progression).
Amarr: lasers, drones, missiles, armor.
Somehow you keep making other peoples points... Gallente have always had a very efficient SP progression.

Apologies for double post:

Caldari should be: Shields, Drones and Missiles. There is no logical lore reason for hybrids.
Minmatar: Shields, Projectiles, Armor and Drones. That would be more streamlined and make sense lore-wise.
Amarr: Armor, Lasers, Drones. Picked up drones from the Caldari. Would make sense given the alliance-blocks.
Khanid (separate out, they are nominally independent from Amarr): Armor, Missiles and Lasers.
Gallente: Hybrids, Drones and Armor. Logical progression for lore and alliance-block. Essentially the same as the present.

The above would make a lot more sense for the 4-main empires.

Serpentis: Armor, Hybrids, Drones, Propulsion Warfare
Angel: Projectiles, Shield, Armor. Shield and Armor capability able to emphasize speed: per gallente and minmatar.
Guristas: Shields, Missiles, Hybrids and Drones. Gallente and Caldari.
Blood Raiders: Armor, Lasers, Cap-Warfare, Propulsion Warfare
Sansha: Shield, Lasers

The above should be the pirates, in my opinion given their racial influences. I would also think that there should be more ships available for the pirate factions. Any thoughts?
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#154 - 2013-12-08 19:11:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcus Walkuris
Kenshi Hanshin wrote:
Marcus Walkuris wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
The skill question always makes me laugh.

First, missiles are comparable to drones in term of skill : long time training with huge bonuses comming from it (drone interfacing ?).

Secondly, gallente ships very often need both drones and gunnery to really shine whereas caldari ships at least have a choice. And minmatar are even worse with both armor and shield tank pretty much required to profit from their versatility and like gallente they have dual weapon systems ships.

But above all EVE is a game of patience and skill point. You'll have so many skills eventually you won't even know what to learn.


While I'm glad it makes you laugh, comedy aside drones aren't even close to missiles or gunnery. You see drones are THE universal secondary weapon-system for all factions bar none. Missiles rarely if ever make a secondary weapon, usually on Caldari and Minmatar hulls and really ineffective at that. Drones however are vital for larger ships ability to defend against frigates.
One drone type tracks like missiles, the other like gunnery. However their individual destructibility and travel-time really change their functionality/implementation far far away from missiles or gunnery. Sentries are stationary. Other drones are brawlers and can be really fragile have no place outside the smallest of gangs.

So sure EvE is just a giant pile of SP-spaghetti, if that makes sense for you go for it.
But to paint Gallente as the sad panda of SP is dishonest at best, often needing drones and gunnery is just not the case. Yes they have hulls that function with both but still have plenty of ships that focus on one. But gallente the very best progression. You unlock the vexor hull, profit, and go straight to the most OP space potatoe dominix, now you have drone skills which are needed by all races for cruiser and up, or you can ignore them and focus on hybrids and focus on the only faction with effective hybrid progression in all tiers. A useful hybrid boat in every hull class of which the BS can be flown with minimal drone skills for a long time.
Gallente:armor, drones, hybrids.
Caldari:Shields, missiles, hybrids, drones.
Minmatar:projectiles, missiles, drones, shields, armor. (and since recently a pretty broken hull progression).
Amarr: lasers, drones, missiles, armor.
Somehow you keep making other peoples points... Gallente have always had a very efficient SP progression.

Apologies for double post:

Caldari should be: Shields, Drones and Missiles. There is no logical lore reason for hybrids.
Minmatar: Shields, Projectiles, Armor and Drones. That would be more streamlined and make sense lore-wise.
Amarr: Armor, Lasers, Drones. Picked up drones from the Caldari. Would make sense given the alliance-blocks.
Khanid (separate out, they are nominally independent from Amarr): Armor, Missiles and Lasers.
Gallente: Hybrids, Drones and Armor. Logical progression for lore and alliance-block. Essentially the same as the present.

The above would make a lot more sense for the 4-main empires.

Serpentis: Armor, Hybrids, Drones, Propulsion Warfare
Angel: Projectiles, Shield, Armor. Shield and Armor capability able to emphasize speed: per gallente and minmatar.
Guristas: Shields, Missiles, Hybrids and Drones. Gallente and Caldari.
Blood Raiders: Armor, Lasers, Cap-Warfare, Propulsion Warfare
Sansha: Shield, Lasers

The above should be the pirates, in my opinion given their racial influences. I would also think that there should be more ships available for the pirate factions. Any thoughts?


Disagree and incorrect. Guristas do not use hybrids. And wether it are the Khanid using missiles they fall under Amarr training. You wouldn't seperate CreoDon for their drone hulls would you? Some argue the same with Thukker Tribe. You train Amarr assault frigates, you get a missile boat and a laser boat, same for Command Ships, Interceptors, Heavy assault, no Khanid ship skills at all. Serpentis propulsion warfare is like giving capacitor bonuses a special mention, you PvP you will need a web, that is too basic to give special mention just like an armor resistance bonus doesn't require extra training. Same goes for Bloods on that topic.
And why you took away hybrids from Caldari in that line up is beyond me, because they have 2 of the strongest blaster boats in their category Merlin and the Moa are respectable, and they just use hybrids durhh.
P.S. Not trying to be harsh :O.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#155 - 2013-12-08 19:43:58 UTC
Kenshi Hanshin wrote:
Caldari should be: Shields, Drones and Missiles. There is no logical lore reason for hybrids.

WHAT ?!!

Have you even read ANY thing even loosely related to caldari lore one day ?!

I mean, caldari capsuleers have a hate for hybrid turrets and don't know anything about caldari warfare and tactics, but lore wise hybrid, and railguns more precisely, do are their secondary weapon system and for *excellent* reasons.
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#156 - 2013-12-09 08:06:05 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Kenshi Hanshin wrote:
Caldari should be: Shields, Drones and Missiles. There is no logical lore reason for hybrids.

WHAT ?!!

Have you even read ANY thing even loosely related to caldari lore one day ?!

I mean, caldari capsuleers have a hate for hybrid turrets and don't know anything about caldari warfare and tactics, but lore wise hybrid, and railguns more precisely, do are their secondary weapon system and for *excellent* reasons.


You can troll him, but you are still dead wrong about your Gallente analyses.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#157 - 2013-12-09 09:54:08 UTC
PErsonal view, based on the type of scenarios we face in high sec combat. Missiles mechanics are not broken. THe formula of damage mitigation altough is too abrupt.

The range between "full damage' and no damage is too short.

AB ships should mitigate a LOT of damage, but I would dare to say the speed and signature decay rate should be reduced in some 30-50%.

For the oens htat think everythign is broken, I just saw some hours ago a tengu with HAMS pop VERY fastly an interceptor. Why? because the thing went from no damage at all taken to a LOT of damage taken by a rather small variation of speed .

Make this decay rate be smoother, even if starting earlier.. but ending further ahead.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#158 - 2013-12-09 09:56:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Kenshi Hanshin wrote:
Marcus Walkuris wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
The skill question always makes me laugh.

First, missiles are comparable to drones in term of skill : long time training with huge bonuses comming from it (drone interfacing ?).

Secondly, gallente ships very often need both drones and gunnery to really shine whereas caldari ships at least have a choice. And minmatar are even worse with both armor and shield tank pretty much required to profit from their versatility and like gallente they have dual weapon systems ships.

But above all EVE is a game of patience and skill point. You'll have so many skills eventually you won't even know what to learn.


While I'm glad it makes you laugh, comedy aside drones aren't even close to missiles or gunnery. You see drones are THE universal secondary weapon-system for all factions bar none. Missiles rarely if ever make a secondary weapon, usually on Caldari and Minmatar hulls and really ineffective at that. Drones however are vital for larger ships ability to defend against frigates.
One drone type tracks like missiles, the other like gunnery. However their individual destructibility and travel-time really change their functionality/implementation far far away from missiles or gunnery. Sentries are stationary. Other drones are brawlers and can be really fragile have no place outside the smallest of gangs.

So sure EvE is just a giant pile of SP-spaghetti, if that makes sense for you go for it.
But to paint Gallente as the sad panda of SP is dishonest at best, often needing drones and gunnery is just not the case. Yes they have hulls that function with both but still have plenty of ships that focus on one. But gallente the very best progression. You unlock the vexor hull, profit, and go straight to the most OP space potatoe dominix, now you have drone skills which are needed by all races for cruiser and up, or you can ignore them and focus on hybrids and focus on the only faction with effective hybrid progression in all tiers. A useful hybrid boat in every hull class of which the BS can be flown with minimal drone skills for a long time.
Gallente:armor, drones, hybrids.
Caldari:Shields, missiles, hybrids, drones.
Minmatar:projectiles, missiles, drones, shields, armor. (and since recently a pretty broken hull progression).
Amarr: lasers, drones, missiles, armor.
Somehow you keep making other peoples points... Gallente have always had a very efficient SP progression.

Apologies for double post:

Caldari should be: Shields, Drones and Missiles. There is no logical lore reason for hybrids.
Minmatar: Shields, Projectiles, Armor and Drones. That would be more streamlined and make sense lore-wise.
Amarr: Armor, Lasers, Drones. Picked up drones from the Caldari. Would make sense given the alliance-blocks.
Khanid (separate out, they are nominally independent from Amarr): Armor, Missiles and Lasers.
Gallente: Hybrids, Drones and Armor. Logical progression for lore and alliance-block. Essentially the same as the present.

The above would make a lot more sense for the 4-main empires.

Serpentis: Armor, Hybrids, Drones, Propulsion Warfare
Angel: Projectiles, Shield, Armor. Shield and Armor capability able to emphasize speed: per gallente and minmatar.
Guristas: Shields, Missiles, Hybrids and Drones. Gallente and Caldari.
Blood Raiders: Armor, Lasers, Cap-Warfare, Propulsion Warfare
Sansha: Shield, Lasers

The above should be the pirates, in my opinion given their racial influences. I would also think that there should be more ships available for the pirate factions. Any thoughts?



My tought is that you do not play eve, neither read its background lore. Caldari drone focus? LOL Caldari created Fighters, and gallente created droens to counter those, caldari were always the least drone related race.

And you didnt even say the word SPEED on minmatar, that is the single word that defines the race.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#159 - 2013-12-09 10:34:28 UTC
Marcus Walkuris wrote:
Somehow you keep making other peoples points... Gallente have always had a very efficient SP progression.
Gallente *can* work with only drones or blasters, but most of their ships only shine with both of them.

And if you want any proof of that, just see any post showcasing gallente dps numbers : they always use blasters and gallente drones. A Thorax for example can arguably be used with blasters only, but using all features of your ship is often better, and 50MB drone bay is not to overlook.

Add this to the fact brawling benefit the most from skillpoints and there you have it.

Caldari and Amarr ships are very specialized, with now the exception of amarr drone ships, they only need one type of tank and one weapon. Drones as frigate defense don't have the importance of a primary weapon system. And to prove it, I'd point out the fact that nobody ever use the drones on the Caracal in dps graphs for example.

Now, there's always the case of soloing which benefit imensely from the max skillpoints you can have in all cases, but a speciualized ship will always require less skills than a not specialized ship, and gallente ships are all flavors of blasters and drones.

Yet, minmatar are even "worse" than gallente, if requiring more skills can be seen as worse. It's just the way things are IMO.
Odithia
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#160 - 2013-12-09 13:16:54 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:


Caldari and Amarr ships are very specialized, with now the exception of amarr drone ships, they only need one type of tank and one weapon. Drones as frigate defense don't have the importance of a primary weapon system. And to prove it, I'd point out the fact that nobody ever use the drones on the Caracal in dps graphs for example.


That was true a long time ago.
Now Amarr have Armor tanked ships that uses Drone or Missile in each hull class.
That is 3 weapons systems and you need both armor and shield tank considering the current kite friendly meta, specialy on smaller hulls.

Caldari have shield tanked missiles and hybrid ships in each class. With drones used as support on bigger hulls like for Minmatar.