These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[NERF] Serpentis web bonus change

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Suitonia
Order of the Red Kestrel
#821 - 2013-12-09 00:06:18 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Tawa Suyo wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
A Curse is likely to use a scram as it can just sneaks in right on top of it's targets and will fight at close range.



What does it do? Just ask people not to shoot while it gets in scram range?

Have you ever heard about a cloak it can use until he's close enough to the ship and uncloaks?


quoting for posterity


Holy **** hahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#822 - 2013-12-09 00:07:35 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
I was ofc mixing the Pilgrim with the Curse. With all of the whining and crying pages in and out in here it's not a suprise that someone can gets confused sometimes.

Suitonia wrote:
Stuffs about the Curse...........

Yeah, maybe the Vindicator kills the Curse as much as the Curse kills the Megathron?


So now you are claiming that the pilgrim is overpowered? ShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShocked
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#823 - 2013-12-09 00:08:03 UTC
Suitonia wrote:
Holy **** hahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

And holy **** hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha, you didn't see my earlier post that explains all.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Suitonia
Order of the Red Kestrel
#824 - 2013-12-09 00:08:23 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
I was ofc mixing the Pilgrim with the Curse. With all of the whining and crying pages in and out in here it's not a suprise that someone can gets confused sometimes.


A Pilgrim is EVEN WORSE than a Curse. It will take a Pilgrim almost 2 minutes to cap out a Vindicator on base cap alone. Also you have only 5 mids on a Pilgrim. How are you going to run 3x Med neuts without an Injector. A Pilgrim will also take 6 minutes to kill a Vindicator even with everything on a Vindicator shut down.

Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#825 - 2013-12-09 00:09:06 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Michael Harari wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
I was ofc mixing the Pilgrim with the Curse. With all of the whining and crying pages in and out in here it's not a suprise that someone can gets confused sometimes.

Suitonia wrote:
Stuffs about the Curse...........

Yeah, maybe the Vindicator kills the Curse as much as the Curse kills the Megathron?


So now you are claiming that the pilgrim is overpowered? ShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShocked

No i'm pointing out that the Curse is as powerfull in killing battleships as a Vindicator is at killing smaller ships.

Suitonia wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
I was ofc mixing the Pilgrim with the Curse. With all of the whining and crying pages in and out in here it's not a suprise that someone can gets confused sometimes.


A Pilgrim is EVEN WORSE than a Curse. It will take a Pilgrim almost 2 minutes to cap out a Vindicator on base cap alone. Also you have only 5 mids on a Pilgrim. How are you going to run 3x Med neuts without an Injector. A Pilgrim will also take 6 minutes to kill a Vindicator even with everything on a Vindicator shut down.

That's not the point here smartypants. I was mixing the cloaks on the Pilgrim with using cloaks on a Curse, not about how good the ships was to each others there

Learn to read.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#826 - 2013-12-09 00:15:30 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Now, lets say the web bonus on the Vindicator gets removed. The Vindicator will then be a new glorified Navy Mega with another paintjob on as i have explained earlier.

What new bonus would make the Vindicator totally unique from the Navy Mega and from the other pirate battleships?

Adding more tracking isn't gonna change anything. Adding more DPS isn't gonna help much either as that still will just make the Vindicator the same as the Navy Mega with a little more DPS or tracking.

So what are your smart idea on how to rebalance the Vindicator so the Vindicator gets totally different from the Navy Mega and the other pirate battleships?

Yes, i'm trying to be on-topic here.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#827 - 2013-12-09 00:16:26 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
[
That's not the point here smartypants. I was mixing the cloaks on the Pilgrim with using cloaks on a Curse, not about how good the ships was to each others there

Learn to read.


"Guys i was aruging that an imaginary ship with bonus combinations that dont exist in game can kill a vindicator, so clearly the vindicator isnt overpowered"
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#828 - 2013-12-09 00:19:05 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
[
That's not the point here smartypants. I was mixing the cloaks on the Pilgrim with using cloaks on a Curse, not about how good the ships was to each others there

Learn to read.


"Guys i was aruging that an imaginary ship with bonus combinations that dont exist in game can kill a vindicator, so clearly the vindicator isnt overpowered"

There are alot of ships in EVE that are very powerfull. You have Falcon, Curse, Bhaalgorn, Rapier, web Loki and so on. Should we all just nerf them all just because they are extremely powerfull at their roles and because some scrubs doesn't have an IQ high enough to try and counter them?

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Suitonia
Order of the Red Kestrel
#829 - 2013-12-09 00:19:22 UTC
NightmareX wrote:

NightmareX wrote:

Suitonia wrote:
Stuffs about the Curse...........

Yeah, maybe the Vindicator kills the Curse as much as the Curse kills the Megathron?




Suitonia wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
I was ofc mixing the Pilgrim with the Curse. With all of the whining and crying pages in and out in here it's not a suprise that someone can gets confused sometimes.


A Pilgrim is EVEN WORSE than a Curse. It will take a Pilgrim almost 2 minutes to cap out a Vindicator on base cap alone. Also you have only 5 mids on a Pilgrim. How are you going to run 3x Med neuts without an Injector. A Pilgrim will also take 6 minutes to kill a Vindicator even with everything on a Vindicator shut down.

That's not the point here smartypants. I was mixing the cloaks on the Pilgrim with using cloaks on a Curse, not about how good the ships was to each others there

Learn to read.


I don't understand what you are saying? Are you suggesting to put a Cloak on a Curse? I already linked you the Maths. Even if you land on the Vindicator at 0m which is highly unlikely, it still takes you almost a minute to cap a Vindicator out with 5x Medium Neuts (no cloak). You will take 6 minutes to kill him. If anything else shows up, you are instantly dumpstered with your <30K EHP. If the Vindicator isn't ********, you are instantly dumpstered.

Are you trying to tell us that highly specialized fit cruisers, (AB/Scram/Web/Dual TD) can kill solo Turret Battleships that don't have 90% webs, and don't have drones? I think we all already knew.

Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#830 - 2013-12-09 00:34:12 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Suitonia wrote:
Are you trying to tell us that highly specialized fit cruisers, (AB/Scram/Web/Dual TD) can kill solo Turret Battleships that don't have 90% webs, and don't have drones? I think we all already knew.

A Curse will eat a Megathron up alive, pretty much. You want to know why?

Because it's made to be able to do that against different ships. It's neuts and TD's is the Curse's advantage to win over others in the same way as the web bonus on the Vindicator is meant to win against others.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#831 - 2013-12-09 00:36:17 UTC
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
The Curse vs Vindicator is an invalid discussion. But a Curse + Megathron (or even Hyena + any non-Gallente BS that can apply damage past 22km - Apocalypse, Machariel, Tempest. etc.) vs Vindicator (still costs less than the Vindi) is, in fact, a valid discussion.

Also, one can not compare a pirate ship to a T1 ship and say "overpowered". CCP's own roadmap puts Pirate ships as being more effective than even T2 ships in their role. When you compare a Vindicator to another ship, compare it to it's own faction. Then you will see why other pirate faction ships need a buff, rather than the Vindi needing a nerf.

This is especially so for pirate frigates and pirate cruisers. Seriously, half of these suck.

The Vindicator is not a ship you fight solo. However, it's a ship that could easily be soloed by two people.

This is the reason the Vindicator is so effective as an anti-blob mechanic. Smaller gangs using Vindicators can often earn a "fair fight" over a significantly larger blob. The small gang now has the power to fight, say, 2x more people than their own gang.

However, this does not work in reverse, when blobs are fighting small gangs. Blobs will have the capability to fight 2x more people, but this capability is nullified, as small gangs are much smaller than themselves.

Vindicators are a force equalizer in this sense. They are one of the few mechanics that empower small gangs more than they empower blobs.

Quoting myself for truth
Gigan Amilupar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#832 - 2013-12-09 02:48:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Gigan Amilupar
NightmareX wrote:
Now, lets say the web bonus on the Vindicator gets removed. The Vindicator will then be a new glorified Navy Mega with another paintjob on as i have explained earlier.


No one is talking about removing the webbing bonus on serpentis ships. Just reducing the percentage by which it increases web strength per level.
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#833 - 2013-12-09 03:03:21 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Gigan Amilupar wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Now, lets say the web bonus on the Vindicator gets removed. The Vindicator will then be a new glorified Navy Mega with another paintjob on as i have explained earlier.


No one is talking about removing the webbing bonus on serpentis ships. Just reducing the percentage by which it increases web strength per level.

With that little effect over the Navy Megathron, no one is going to pay over 500 mill isk extra for a Vindicator as the extra price and the Vindicator it self make no sense then. And not to mention that we are talking about a pirate bonus that is supposed to be extremely powerfull. Those powerfull bonuses is what makes the pirate battleships to be a pirate ship. And extremely powerfull web strength is what makes the Vindicator to be a Vindicator.

Just because the Vindicator's job is to slow every ships so much down that no one can escape that or go under it's tracking, doesn't mean it's to powerfull just because dreads can hit them after that. The Vindicator is the ONLY battleship in EVE Online who can make a dread hit cruisers and frigs (to some points) with just one or two Vindicators. Yes, the only one. That should say you enough about that.

Just because the dreads are able to hit you doesn't means it's to powerfull. It just means you did a mistake by getting webbed by the Vindicator while getting hotdropped by dreads Blink.

EDIT: Just to add. Any ships that is webbed or dual webbed by a Vindicator, or if any ships are webbed by 2 Vindicators who have one web fitted each will make a Super Carrier that is on the field with the Vindicator(s) to end your ships life pretty quick aswell. But that isn't a problem or?

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#834 - 2013-12-09 03:50:30 UTC
I'm gona stop actually posting arguements.. Instead i'm just gona go spend my time quoting things i think are absolutely hilarious

NightmareX wrote:

No i'm pointing out that the Curse is as powerfull in killing battleships as a Vindicator is at killing smaller ships.


This one is priceless.

NightmareX wrote:
There are alot of ships in EVE that are very powerfull. You have Falcon, Curse, Bhaalgorn, Rapier, web Loki and so on. Should we all just nerf them all just because they are extremely powerfull at their roles and because some scrubs doesn't have an IQ high enough to try and counter them?


No nerfing, ever again! Bring back lol-range ECM!

NightmareX wrote:
A Curse will eat a Megathron up alive, pretty much


Not before downtime it wont

NightmareX wrote:
EDIT: Just to add. Any ships that is webbed or dual webbed by a Vindicator, or if any ships are webbed by 2 Vindicators who have one web fitted each will make a Super Carrier that is on the field with the Vindicator(s) to end your ships life pretty quick aswell. But that isn't a problem or?


Actually with a lot of ships supercarriers have a harder time hitting them if they are stationary because the drones orbit around instead of following behind. Thus outtracking themselves.

You will run into a similar thing if you use algos hammerheads on frigates. Vindi webs are mostly just used with dreads, not that they wouldn't be useful for other capitals as well.. Just not quite.



Wait damn it.. I made an arguement in that last one.. =<

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#835 - 2013-12-09 03:57:20 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
I'm gona stop actually posting arguements.. Instead i'm just gona go spend my time quoting things i think are absolutely hilarious

NightmareX wrote:

No i'm pointing out that the Curse is as powerfull in killing battleships as a Vindicator is at killing smaller ships.


This one is priceless.

NightmareX wrote:
There are alot of ships in EVE that are very powerfull. You have Falcon, Curse, Bhaalgorn, Rapier, web Loki and so on. Should we all just nerf them all just because they are extremely powerfull at their roles and because some scrubs doesn't have an IQ high enough to try and counter them?


No nerfing, ever again! Bring back lol-range ECM!

NightmareX wrote:
A Curse will eat a Megathron up alive, pretty much


Not before downtime it wont

NightmareX wrote:
EDIT: Just to add. Any ships that is webbed or dual webbed by a Vindicator, or if any ships are webbed by 2 Vindicators who have one web fitted each will make a Super Carrier that is on the field with the Vindicator(s) to end your ships life pretty quick aswell. But that isn't a problem or?


Actually with a lot of ships supercarriers have a harder time hitting them if they are stationary because the drones orbit around instead of following behind. Thus outtracking themselves.

You will run into a similar thing if you use algos hammerheads on frigates. Vindi webs are mostly just used with dreads, not that they wouldn't be useful for other capitals as well.. Just not quite.



Wait damn it.. I made an arguement in that last one.. =<

1. Can you explain why the Curse isn't as powerfull as the Vindicator?
2. Then don't nerf the Vindicator as it have already been nerfed one time earlier, but boost the other pirate ships that needs that instead.
3. Yes a Curse will give your Megathron a very hard time. If you are in an asteroid belt and a Curse tackles you there, i'm gonna bet 100 mill isk that the experienced Curse pilot is either gonna kill your drones or make the Mega go out of cap boosters and then kill the Mega before the Curse are in danger. And as everyone knows, a Curse are never gonna be in danger to the Megathron's guns if the Megathron is dual TD'ed.
4. The slower the ships is going, the better the drones or fighters are gonna hit you.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#836 - 2013-12-09 04:03:14 UTC
Naomi Anthar wrote:
Ok i'm back from hazing Suddenly in their home system. Got only few kills as they turned tails and run.


Are you talking about the time when we knowingly took t1 cruisers into your T2 fleet for lols? The time we lost a few cruisers then went and sat on your home station with T1 cruisers again.... and then hazed you next door?


Is that the time you were talking about?


This time?

http://dog-net.org/brdoc/?brid=25053

Yeah.





SO...... Looking at the discussion:

For the sake of breaking the monotony, what bonus could the vindi be given that would allow it to:

A) maintain it's role without just being the Navy Mega V2
B) maintain it's role as an equalizer between large fleets and small fleets
C) maintain a reason to even fly the ship in the first place... since the Nightmare is doing oh so well with it's lack of specific, pirate faction bonus

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#837 - 2013-12-09 07:17:58 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Naomi Anthar wrote:
Ok i'm back from hazing Suddenly in their home system. Got only few kills as they turned tails and run.


Are you talking about the time when we knowingly took t1 cruisers into your T2 fleet for lols? The time we lost a few cruisers then went and sat on your home station with T1 cruisers again.... and then hazed you next door?


Is that the time you were talking about?


This time?

http://dog-net.org/brdoc/?brid=25053

Yeah.





SO...... Looking at the discussion:

For the sake of breaking the monotony, what bonus could the vindi be given that would allow it to:

A) maintain it's role without just being the Navy Mega V2
B) maintain it's role as an equalizer between large fleets and small fleets
C) maintain a reason to even fly the ship in the first place... since the Nightmare is doing oh so well with it's lack of specific, pirate faction bonus

I think a bonus it could be given is a slightly weaker web strength bonus. Who'da thunk it? It still gets good range control and will be good for shutting down transversal, but won't be quite as broken! Wow!

Seriously, 7.5% would be fine. Just get it on SiSi and let us test it and I'm sure it would be good. If not, fine. Leave it as is. But nobody wants to hear about any slight nerf at all. It's "OH MY GOD, THEY'RE THREATENING TO NERF IT AND HOLY **** IT'LL BE USELESS DON'T CHANGE IT BUFF EVERYTHING ELSE BUT DON'T NERF THE VINDICATOR OH MY GOD! I LOVE POWERCREEP!"
Sparkus Volundar
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#838 - 2013-12-09 07:27:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Sparkus Volundar
NightmareX wrote:

And not to mention that we are talking about a pirate bonus that is supposed to be extremely powerfull. Those powerfull bonuses is what makes the pirate battleships to be a pirate ship. And extremely powerfull web strength is what makes the Vindicator to be a Vindicator.


Quote:
ex·treme  (k-strm)adj.
1. Most remote in any direction; outermost or farthest: the extreme edge of the field.
2. Being in or attaining the greatest or highest degree; very intense: extreme pleasure; extreme pain.
3. Extending far beyond the norm: an extreme conservative. See Synonyms at excessive.
4. Of the greatest severity; drastic: took extreme measures to conserve fuel.
5. Biology
a. Characterized by severe, usually oxygen-poor environmental conditions.
b. Having an affinity for such conditions: an extreme microorganism.


This cuts to the heart of the matter. You know the bonus is extreme but your concept of balance is different to other peoples'.

.
Nag'o
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#839 - 2013-12-09 10:55:05 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
Naomi Anthar wrote:
Ok i'm back from hazing Suddenly in their home system. Got only few kills as they turned tails and run.


Are you talking about the time when we knowingly took t1 cruisers into your T2 fleet for lols? The time we lost a few cruisers then went and sat on your home station with T1 cruisers again.... and then hazed you next door?


Is that the time you were talking about?


This time?

http://dog-net.org/brdoc/?brid=25053

Yeah.





SO...... Looking at the discussion:

For the sake of breaking the monotony, what bonus could the vindi be given that would allow it to:

A) maintain it's role without just being the Navy Mega V2
B) maintain it's role as an equalizer between large fleets and small fleets
C) maintain a reason to even fly the ship in the first place... since the Nightmare is doing oh so well with it's lack of specific, pirate faction bonus

I think a bonus it could be given is a slightly weaker web strength bonus. Who'da thunk it? It still gets good range control and will be good for shutting down transversal, but won't be quite as broken! Wow!

Seriously, 7.5% would be fine. Just get it on SiSi and let us test it and I'm sure it would be good. If not, fine. Leave it as is. But nobody wants to hear about any slight nerf at all. It's "OH MY GOD, THEY'RE THREATENING TO NERF IT AND HOLY **** IT'LL BE USELESS DON'T CHANGE IT BUFF EVERYTHING ELSE BUT DON'T NERF THE VINDICATOR OH MY GOD! I LOVE POWERCREEP!"


A CCP nerf to the Vindicator web wouldn't be to 7.5%. I personally wouldn't mind a 7.5% bonus because that would only significantly affect who doesn't have the ship skills fully trained. At level 5 and a 7.5% bonus the webs would reduce 82.5% of a target's speed, wich, when paired, is as close of a speed reduction as 90% webs. If the intent of the nerf is to prevent a near full stop then a 7.5% bonus won't do much of a difference.


Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#840 - 2013-12-09 11:11:25 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Naomi Anthar wrote:
Ok i'm back from hazing Suddenly in their home system. Got only few kills as they turned tails and run.


Are you talking about the time when we knowingly took t1 cruisers into your T2 fleet for lols? The time we lost a few cruisers then went and sat on your home station with T1 cruisers again.... and then hazed you next door?


Is that the time you were talking about?


This time?

http://dog-net.org/brdoc/?brid=25053

Yeah.


Thats not a T2 fleet

0/10.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish