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Fixing the Phoenix
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XvXTeacherVxV
Be Nice Inc.
Prismatic Legion
#1 - 2013-12-08 18:51:51 UTC  |  Edited by: XvXTeacherVxV
+3 Turret hardpoints, don't remove the launchers, and change this:

Caldari Dreadnought Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to kinetic missile damage per skill level
5% bonus to Capital Launcher rate of fire per skill level

to this:

Caldari Dreadnought Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to Capital Launcher and Capital Hybrid Turret damage per skill level
4% bonus to shield resistances per skill level

Now it's usable without just being a Caldari Moros and people who trained their capital launcher skills can still use them. It would deal the least damage of the dreads, but it would be the tankiest, be more adaptable which has it's own uses and wouldn't have that lame kinetic damage bonus.

Discuss.
Can you see the rapier?: http://imgur.com/aFelCpv,GH6lqDE
Gigan Amilupar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2013-12-08 19:00:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Gigan Amilupar
It's actually kind of sad that we've gotten to the point where "fixing" the phoenix means allowing it to use hybrids as it's weapon system instead. IMO the ship doesn't need it's bonuses changed, it needs capital launchers to be fixed. Problem is, CCP has stated that they're worried about crossing the fine line of capital launchers working as intended, and capital launchers being ridiculously OP with webs and TP's factored into the situation. I have no idea where to begin a suggestion to fix the problem honestly. Pretty sure CCPs said that they were looking at some changes for the phoenix with the rubicon update but decided that they didn't like how it was balancing out, so they're putting it off till the capital rebalance (which I think they also said will be the last rebalance they are going to do after pirate faction and T3's).

Edit: Thought hybrids, wrote rails, fixed.
XvXTeacherVxV
Be Nice Inc.
Prismatic Legion
#3 - 2013-12-08 19:06:19 UTC
Gigan Amilupar wrote:
It's actually kind of sad that we've gotten to the point where "fixing" the phoenix means allowing it to use rails as it's weapon system instead. IMO the ship doesn't need it's bonuses changed, it needs capital launchers to be fixed. Problem is, CCP has stated that they're worried about crossing the fine line of capital launchers working as intended, and capital launchers being ridiculously OP with webs and TP's factored into the situation. I have no idea where to begin a suggestion to fix the problem honestly. Pretty sure CCPs said that they were looking at some changes for the phoenix with the rubicon update but decided that they didn't like how it was balancing out, so they're putting it off till the capital rebalance (which I think they also said will be the last rebalance they are going to do after pirate faction and T3's).


I agree, there isn't really an easy fix for capital launchers. At least this way we wouldn't be getting rid of capital launchers entirely and I think they'd still see some use for shooting structures. I saw some people suggesting adding rapid cruise launchers but it seems like that would be more difficult to balance with other capital weapons. Also.. it could use blasters too :P.
Can you see the rapier?: http://imgur.com/aFelCpv,GH6lqDE
Eli Green
The Arrow Project
#4 - 2013-12-08 19:14:50 UTC
I think if they fix cap launchers it will be fine (maybe) but I like the idea of having the turret hardpoints as well as the missile hardpoints.

wumbo
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#5 - 2013-12-08 20:25:54 UTC
Fixing the Phoenix would mean addressing the problems with missiles.
Instead we'll probably see CCP40sec (formerly CCP Rise) "balance" the Phoenix into the same oblivion as the Drake.
The next expansion, "Oblivion" sees the balancing off all Caldari/missile ships right out of the game.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#6 - 2013-12-08 20:57:07 UTC
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
Fixing the Phoenix would mean addressing the problems with missiles.
Instead we'll probably see CCP40sec (formerly CCP Rise) "balance" the Phoenix into the same oblivion as the Drake.
The next expansion, "Oblivion" sees the balancing off all Caldari/missile ships right out of the game.

Maybe CCP 40sec will introduce capital-class 'Rapid cruise launchers' that will hold 5 rounds and take 2 minutes to reload, justifying this change because capital cruise launchers were "OP" at exploiting stationary targets. The flip side is that the Phoenix will still be a force to be reckoned with for all of the 10 seconds it can operate…

"Oblivion" seems appropriate (as in, oblivious to any and all player concerns), to be followed by "Exodus" (as in, the mass player abandonment of EVE).

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#7 - 2013-12-08 22:09:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
I'd +1 a gun phoenix.

Since ccp can't find the magic formula to fix missiles without breaking something (in thier eyes, at this point we could argue little to no no tinfioil needed for missile dislike at the the dev level theories it seems) I 'd take a hybrid phoenix as a quick slap on fix. Worked wonders for nag goin guns.


The caldari backlash should be minimal for this. Most of the level headed, dare I say smarter ones, already are large hybird trained for rokh and naga already. We'd be quite happy with the change as we are already there, just need the x-larg gun train. This would jsut make the pure gun missile cladari mad but I'd wager they are not the majority of users. For years before cruise buff you trained rokh, that be alot of us caldari pilots. Then came naga to add +1 more reason to learn guns.

For new pilots...the new training scheme. Phoenix dedicated trains in much faster times.

Hell I'd even write off the cap missiles skills...leave them in place as "wasted sp". Even the nag pilot emo whines were not overpowering here. Most were too distracted with getting a dread that worked better to complain too much. I'd give up a sp reimbursemenr for this change, how much I support it lol.
HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#8 - 2013-12-08 23:34:21 UTC
The issue with this is then the phoenix is both the tankiest and the most damaging dread.
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#9 - 2013-12-09 00:01:58 UTC
No to split weapons system, they got rid of it on the Nag for a reason.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2013-12-09 00:07:31 UTC
all hail the new naglfar
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#11 - 2013-12-09 00:38:17 UTC
The key to fixing the Phoenix for anything but structure grinding is to move the explosion velocity and missile velocity by 5%, wait 3 months, see how it goes. Do it again until you see the number of Phoenix being built rise 100% in any month, and you'll know you are more or less spot on.

Fear of making the Phoenix a blap dread is misplaced. The Moros and Nag are already blap dreads, addng competition in hulls and weapon choices won't stop the practise.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#12 - 2013-12-09 02:30:14 UTC
How about fixing Citadel missiles instead? Another hybrid dread seems pointless to me.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#13 - 2013-12-09 02:58:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
How about fixing Citadel missiles instead? Another hybrid dread seems pointless to me.




issues this has not even gotten the ccp stamp of soon^TM.


Also if I recall in one of the few pheonix threads that a dev posted (I'd have t dig it up) in they are real hesistant to changing the recipe for either missiles in general or ship bonuses for phoenix to get them to work better.

While it would be nice, ccp opened up pandora's box with nag. A missile tweak would have worked jsut as well to make nag pilots happier. Fix nag (with missiles) , fix phoenix all in one fell swoop....it would have been an achievement to be proud of. CCP opted for pure guns. If they can't make the former work the latter did the trick. Worked once, not seeing why a second try won't.

I think for many of us we'll take whatever works to get up and running well faster. May as well be guns. I am 1 of many caldari pilots (combat char is caldari) who when it came time to find a cap race said well now is as good a time as any to x-train out. We learn guns anyway in this x-train if for whatever reason we did not fly rokhs (i already did so support skills in place already), why not have it in the caldari family.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#14 - 2013-12-09 03:02:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Zvaarian the Red
Zan Shiro wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
How about fixing Citadel missiles instead? Another hybrid dread seems pointless to me.




issues this has not even gotten the ccp stamp of soon^TM.


Also if I recall in one of the few pheonix threads that a dev posted (I'd have t dig it up) in they are real hesistant to changing the recipe for either missiles in general or ship bonuses for phoenix to get them to work better.

While it would be nice, ccp opened up pandora's box with nag. A missile tweak would have worked jsut as well to make nag pilots happier. Fix nag (with missiles) , fix phoenix all in one fell swoop....it would have been an achievement to be proud of. CCP opted for pure guns. If they can't make the former work the latter did the trick. Worked once, not seeing why a second try won't.

I think for many of us we'll take whatever works to get up and running well faster. May as well be guns. I am 1 of many caldari pilots (combat char is caldari) who when it came time to find a cap race said well now is as good a time as any to x-train out. We learn guns anyway in this x-train if for whatever reason we did not fly rokhs (i already did so support skills in place already), why not have it in the caldari family.


And all those people who have trained citadel missiles can just get ******? Is that it?

I don't get what's so scary about an across-the-board 10% buff to explosion velocity and radius for citadel missiles. Does anyone really think that would make the Phoenix overpowered? Seriously?
Icarus Able
Refuse.Resist
#15 - 2013-12-09 03:11:15 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
[quote=Zan Shiro][quote=Zvaarian the Red]
And all those people who have trained citadel missiles can just get ******? Is that it?

I don't get what's so scary about an across-the-board 10% buff to explosion velocity and radius for citadel missiles. Does anyone really think that would make the Phoenix overpowered? Seriously?


Serves you right for training them in the first place:P
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#16 - 2013-12-09 03:18:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Zvaarian the Red
Don't use them. Still have way too many sub-cap skills to work on to even think about it yet.

It just seems that from my fiddling with EFT and what people have to say about them, a 10% buff to both damage application stats would hardly make them overpowered.
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#17 - 2013-12-09 04:33:52 UTC
XvXTeacherVxV wrote:
+3 Turret hardpoints, don't remove the launchers, and change this:

Caldari Dreadnought Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to kinetic missile damage per skill level
5% bonus to Capital Launcher rate of fire per skill level

to this:

Caldari Dreadnought Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to Capital Launcher and Capital Hybrid Turret damage per skill level
4% bonus to shield resistances per skill level

Now it's usable without just being a Caldari Moros and people who trained their capital launcher skills can still use them. It would deal the least damage of the dreads, but it would be the tankiest, be more adaptable which has it's own uses and wouldn't have that lame kinetic damage bonus.

Discuss.


wont work even with t2 siege and missles its cap wont even last 1/3 the siege cycle. so thats a god aweful idea to put more cap draning mods onto it

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#18 - 2013-12-09 04:36:04 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:


And all those people who have trained citadel missiles can just get ******? Is that it?

I don't get what's so scary about an across-the-board 10% buff to explosion velocity and radius for citadel missiles. Does anyone really think that would make the Phoenix overpowered? Seriously?



its a nullsec nullbear conspiracy. they finally got drake fleets nerfed and now want to never see the phoenix in use at all (like its not been in use at all for the past 4 years) Nullseccers = hate for missiles, nothing more.

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]
XvXTeacherVxV
Be Nice Inc.
Prismatic Legion
#19 - 2013-12-09 04:39:15 UTC
Seranova Farreach wrote:


wont work even with t2 siege and missles its cap wont even last 1/3 the siege cycle. so thats a god aweful idea to put more cap draning mods onto it


God awful is the phoenix's middle name, so it seems appropriate to me.
Can you see the rapier?: http://imgur.com/aFelCpv,GH6lqDE
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#20 - 2013-12-09 04:52:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
And all those people who have trained citadel missiles can just get ******? Is that it?

I don't get what's so scary about an across-the-board 10% buff to explosion velocity and radius for citadel missiles. Does anyone really think that would make the Phoenix overpowered? Seriously?



Preaching to the choir. You need to get ccp 40 seconds and others on board lol (I like that nickname, it works). I am jaded from the days of faildari (started in apoc). I stopped fighting, sold out and joined the gun borg lol. I tend to respect you all who fight the good fight of missile viability. But I don't work for ccp lol.


I'd like to see missiles more viable. CCP is showing a trend not to. Like i said they could have fixed nag and phoenix at the same time keeping missiles. They seem to have this weird concern about drake train being run with phoenix however. Bllapping dreads apparenly don't register on the wth radar however. Missiles is becoming that pivotal issue they need to address real soon. For y'alls sake I hope its sooner.


hell I would not be greedy here even, have it so it can hit another cap and I'd call it done. Better than it is now at any rate.
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