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[NERF] Serpentis web bonus change

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Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#781 - 2013-12-08 21:03:36 UTC
Naomi Anthar wrote:
NightmareX and Nyancat taught me so much in so short time.

Guys Vindi is **** , i can see this now. Ship is so weak .

It needs serious buffs - first improve cap so it doesn't get "owned" by curse or bhaal.
2nd - improve tracking bonus even further - because obviously tds **** on it.
3rd increase web bonus to 15% per level as obviously it does not slow down enough and it's on verge of being useless.
4th increase lock range so it won't get damped aka rendered useless.



Really THANK YOU.

You see, if you actually read the thread, you would notice that we were simply pointing out counters to the Vindicator. We never said that any of those things should happen.
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#782 - 2013-12-08 21:07:48 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Tawa Suyo wrote:
http://i.imgur.com/J7hXads.png

According to the newest version of PYFA, your setup have 192k EHP while mine have 228k EHP. So yes, that's alot of difference.

That's before any fleet bonuses are applied. Both setups also have a full LG Slave set fitted.

EDIT: Just to add this to. We fits our Vindicators to have a tank that is as much possible imune to neuts. We are often going up alot of other pirate ships like Bhaalgorns and stuffs like that and we are also going up against lots of carriers, and they do have neuts to.

So if some carriers neuts you Vindicator so you can't use your active tank (armor hardeners + the Reactive Armor ) effectively, you end up by having the amusingly low 103k EHP (according to PYFA), LOL. While my setup will have 169k EHP if i get neuted so much that i can't run my explosive armor hardener and Reactive Armor hardener.

So the point here is that even if you are completely capped out, you can still survive with carriers as backup. You can't do that with your setup.

Why do you think we are so effective with our Vindicator fleet?

Yes, it's because our setups are extremely good for what we are doing.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#783 - 2013-12-08 21:33:08 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
How has this 1200+ DPS Vindi not killed its target in 2 minutes, and if it hasn't, how isn't it so close to death that it'll be dead regardless? That's 144k EHP. No neut ship will have much more EHP than that if it's soloing. At that point you'll only need a couple more gun cycles to finish the job.

Of course if you mean in fleet fights, where's the Vindi's cap support? Logi exists, and if you're in a fleet you should be able to press the magical "needs cap" button to wish all your problems away.

If you get tracking disrupted and if the other ships you are fighting against is active tanked and are orbiting you, it will mean your damage will be so low that the active tanked ships actually can tank you.

Just this simple thing can a Curse do under the tracking of the Vindicator. It can neut me and tracking disrupt me to the point that my damage is low enough that the Curse can active tank me.


How does tracking disruption help a curse againstvyou? You'll be going 3x or more faster than him. How does he get under your guns when you can eliminate hustle transversal bbecause you're faster than him? How does he keep outside of your range when you're faster than him? How do you not apply near full DPS when you are basically shooting an almost immobile target?
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#784 - 2013-12-08 21:35:55 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
How does tracking disruption help a curse againstvyou? You'll be going 3x or more faster than him. How does he get under your guns when you can eliminate hustle transversal bbecause you're faster than him? How does he keep outside of your range when you're faster than him? How do you not apply near full DPS when you are basically shooting an almost immobile target?

I recommend you to try this out so you can see for your self on how it's going.

Comparing real PVP situations is something else than just looking at some numbers.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Tawa Suyo
C.O.D.E
#785 - 2013-12-08 21:39:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Tawa Suyo
NightmareX wrote:
Tawa Suyo wrote:
http://i.imgur.com/J7hXads.png

According to the newest version of PYFA, your setup have 192k EHP while mine have 228k EHP. So yes, that's alot of difference.

That's before any fleet bonuses are applied. Both setups also have a full LG Slave set fitted.

EDIT: Just to add this to. We fits our Vindicators to have a tank that is as much possible imune to neuts. We are often going up alot of other pirate ships like Bhaalgorns and stuffs like that and we are also going up against lots of carriers, and they do have neuts to.

So if some carriers neuts you Vindicator so you can't use your active tank (armor hardeners + the Reactive Armor ) effectively, you end up by having the amusingly low 103k EHP (according to PYFA), LOL. While my setup will have 169k EHP if i get neuted so much that i can't run my explosive armor hardener and Reactive Armor hardener.

So the point here is that even if you are completely capped out, you can still survive with carriers as backup. You can't do that with your setup.

Why do you think we are so effective with our Vindicator fleet?

Yes, it's because our setups are extremely good for what we are doing.



Cap Booster...

(Also stacking penalties on armour links)


And if what you are saying is true (it's not), why don't you use an explosive membrane?
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#786 - 2013-12-08 21:43:20 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Tawa Suyo wrote:
Cap Booster...

(Also stacking penalties on armour links)

Good luck trying to use the cap booster effectively when 4-5 carriers and some Bhaalgorns are nuking your cap.

Again, there is a reason why we use the setup we use, to have bigger chances to survive without being totally dependent on the cap booster and cap.

It's better to bail a fight with all Vindicators intact rather than bailing the fights with several Vindicator losses.

Tawa Suyo wrote:
And if what you are saying is true (it's not), why don't you use an explosive membrane?

You can ask Buhhdust about that.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Tawa Suyo
C.O.D.E
#787 - 2013-12-08 21:47:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Tawa Suyo
NightmareX wrote:
Tawa Suyo wrote:
Cap Booster...

(Also stacking penalties on armour links)

Good luck trying to use the cap booster effectively when 4-5 carriers and some Bhaalgorns are nuking your cap.
It's better to bail a fight with all Vindicators intact rather than bailing the fights with several Vindicator losses.



Um...

Inject cap charge, cycle on hardeners.

Hardeners have 20 second duration. They don't switch off until the end of the cycle. You can inject once every 12 seconds.


Do you really not know how to use a cap booster under neuts?
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#788 - 2013-12-08 21:49:36 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Tawa Suyo wrote:
[Um...

Inject cap charge, cycle on hardeners.

Hardeners have 20 second duration. They don't switch off until the end of the cycle. You can inject once every 12 seconds.


Do you really not know how to use a cap booster under neuts?

It's pretty clear that you haven't been fighting with Vindicators against lots of carriers and Bhaalgorns i see.

Yes, you might get the first or a second cycle in if your lucky, but that's it then.

And what about the guns on the Vindicator then?

They have a pretty fast ROF. And without the cap to use them, then the Vindicator is just a dying brick waiting to die no matter how much the Vindicator can web you.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Tawa Suyo
C.O.D.E
#789 - 2013-12-08 21:50:58 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Tawa Suyo wrote:
[Um...

Inject cap charge, cycle on hardeners.

Hardeners have 20 second duration. They don't switch off until the end of the cycle. You can inject once every 12 seconds.


Do you really not know how to use a cap booster under neuts?

It's pretty clear that you haven't been fighting with Vindicators against lots of carriers and Bhaalgorns i see.

Yes, you might get the first or a second cycle in if your lucky, but that's it then.


Doesn't matter how many neuts there are, you cannot get negative cap.


Cycle injector once, put all hardeners on. Wait until hardener cycle ends. Repeat.

Do you really not know how to do that?
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#790 - 2013-12-08 21:52:23 UTC
Tawa Suyo wrote:
Doesn't matter how many neuts there are, you cannot get negative cap.


Cycle injector once, put all hardeners on. Wait until hardener cycle ends. Repeat.

Do you really not know how to do that?

Read my edited reply over again.

What does it help to cycle it's hardeners when the Vindicator can't shoot?

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Tawa Suyo
C.O.D.E
#791 - 2013-12-08 21:58:28 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Tawa Suyo wrote:
Doesn't matter how many neuts there are, you cannot get negative cap.


Cycle injector once, put all hardeners on. Wait until hardener cycle ends. Repeat.

Do you really not know how to do that?

Read my edited reply over again.

What does it help to cycle it's hardeners when the Vindicator can't shoot?



Because you don't die and your fleet can still fight while you're primaried.

How were you using your guns in your "lol ehp" fit in your own example?
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#792 - 2013-12-08 21:58:40 UTC
Tawa Suyo wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Tawa Suyo wrote:
[Um...

Inject cap charge, cycle on hardeners.

Hardeners have 20 second duration. They don't switch off until the end of the cycle. You can inject once every 12 seconds.


Do you really not know how to use a cap booster under neuts?

It's pretty clear that you haven't been fighting with Vindicators against lots of carriers and Bhaalgorns i see.

Yes, you might get the first or a second cycle in if your lucky, but that's it then.


Doesn't matter how many neuts there are, you cannot get negative cap.


Cycle injector once, put all hardeners on. Wait until hardener cycle ends. Repeat.

Do you really not know how to do that?


Have fun shooting something with barely any cap to keep your hardeners running.
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#793 - 2013-12-08 22:03:03 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Tawa Suyo wrote:
Because you don't die and your fleet can still fight while you're primaried.

How were you using your guns in your "lol ehp" fit in your own example?

Again, you should try and fight against as many carriers and other pirate ships as we do to see how hard it actually is to run an active tank. It's easy to just sit there and write things down about how easy things are when things aren't that easy in real situations.

It's not like every carriers and Bhaalgorns are gonna start neuting you at the same time lol. They will have different times when they starts neuting you witch makes it hard to just press the cap booster button as another ships can just insta your cap again the same instant as you used the cap booster.

Anyways, i think this is going off-topic as this is about how to fix the issue that dreads can kill some ships after enough webs are applied. The fix is to make it so dreads can't hit those ships even if they are webbed by several Vindicators.

Or we can just say HTFU and live with it to you that with enough web power, any ships will be able to kill your ship no matter what ship you are using.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#794 - 2013-12-08 22:04:07 UTC
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Tawa Suyo wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Tawa Suyo wrote:
[Um...

Inject cap charge, cycle on hardeners.

Hardeners have 20 second duration. They don't switch off until the end of the cycle. You can inject once every 12 seconds.


Do you really not know how to use a cap booster under neuts?

It's pretty clear that you haven't been fighting with Vindicators against lots of carriers and Bhaalgorns i see.

Yes, you might get the first or a second cycle in if your lucky, but that's it then.


Doesn't matter how many neuts there are, you cannot get negative cap.


Cycle injector once, put all hardeners on. Wait until hardener cycle ends. Repeat.

Do you really not know how to do that?


Have fun shooting something with barely any cap to keep your hardeners running.


So you dont shoot something. Instead, you catch reps, and eventually they stop neuting you. Or you broadcast for cap and get capped up by your guardians.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#795 - 2013-12-08 22:27:00 UTC
NightmareX wrote:

If you get tracking disrupted and if the other ships you are fighting against is active tanked and are orbiting you, it will mean your damage will be so low that the active tanked ships actually can tank you..


If you are flying a webless vindi, this might actually be the case.
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#796 - 2013-12-08 22:29:31 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
If you are flying a webless vindi, this might actually be the case.

Have you tried a Vindicator with 1x 90% web against a dual tracking disruptor Curse orbiting you at 200-300m?

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#797 - 2013-12-08 22:33:45 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
If you are flying a webless vindi, this might actually be the case.

Have you tried a Vindicator with 1x 90% web against a dual tracking disruptor Curse orbiting you at 200-300m?


how do you orbit something faster than you
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#798 - 2013-12-08 22:41:56 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
TrouserDeagle wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
If you are flying a webless vindi, this might actually be the case.

Have you tried a Vindicator with 1x 90% web against a dual tracking disruptor Curse orbiting you at 200-300m?


how do you orbit something faster than you

And if a Curse is using an afterburner, it will normaly do 548 m/s (713 m/s with the AB overloaded). If the Vindicator webs it, that will do 54.8 m/s (71.3 m/s with the AB on the Curse overloaded) while orbiting you.

As the Curse most likely will have a scram fitted, your Vindicator can't use the MWD to close in on him even more. And my VIndicator does 140 m/s. When the Curse 60% webs me, my Vindicator will do 56 m/s.

So yes, the Curse can indeed control the distances here. And if the Curse doesn't overload the AB, the speed differences from 54.8 m/s to 56 m/s is so small that it doesn't matter.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#799 - 2013-12-08 22:43:11 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
If you are flying a webless vindi, this might actually be the case.

Have you tried a Vindicator with 1x 90% web against a dual tracking disruptor Curse orbiting you at 200-300m?


how do you orbit something faster than you

And if a Curse is using an afterburner, it will normaly do 548 m/s (713 m/s with the AB overloaded). If the Vindicator webs it, that will do 54.8 m/s (71.3 m/s with the AB on the Curse overloaded) while orbiting you.

As the Curse most likely will have a scram fitted, your Vindicator can't use the MWD to close in on him even more. And my VIndicator does 140 m/s. When the Curse 60% webs me, my Vindicator will do 56 m/s.

So yes, the Curse can indeed control the distances here.


you're hilarious
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#800 - 2013-12-08 22:47:31 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
TrouserDeagle wrote:
you're hilarious

As much hilarious as complaining about the Vindicator because some dreads can hit some of the ships the Vindicator webs?

Now, lets move away from the Vindicator to the normal Megathron with 1x 60% web. How powefull is the Curse against a normal Megathron?

Ahh, there we go, it's gonna roll over the Megathron pretty hard in the same way as a Vindicator will roll over other normal ships pretty hard.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama