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[NERF] Serpentis web bonus change

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Suitonia
Order of the Red Kestrel
#721 - 2013-12-07 23:37:47 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Suitonia wrote:
There are also modules in the game to counter ECM, as terrible a mechanic as it is.

Yeah, there is also alot of modules that can counter 90% webs to. Use those and be happy.


Please enlighten us

Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#722 - 2013-12-07 23:47:05 UTC
Suitonia wrote:
Please enlighten us

ECM, neuts, damps just to name a few?

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#723 - 2013-12-07 23:49:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Goldensaver
NightmareX wrote:
Suitonia wrote:
There are also modules in the game to counter ECM, as terrible a mechanic as it is.

Yeah, there is also alot of modules that can counter 90% webs to. Use those and be happy.

You mean like afterburners (which I pointed out earlier in the thread don't even let a frigate go faster than a slowboating Vindicator) or MWDs (which make you barely faster but also make you the same size as a slowboating Vindi but with 1/100th the tank)?

perhaps overdrives that will never even match one 60% web, let almost a 90% web? Or nanos that are even slower than overdrives and even further reduce your tank?

At least for ECM you can respond with ECCM or info boosts which directly counter them, usually reducing the chances of a jam byaround 50% per ECCM.
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#724 - 2013-12-07 23:55:36 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Goldensaver wrote:
At least for ECM you can respond with ECCM or info boosts which directly counter them, usually reducing the chances of a jam byaround 50% per ECCM.

You don't even need a module to completely counter 90% webs. It's very simple, you don't go into their short web range.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#725 - 2013-12-08 01:41:43 UTC
I was going to argue some more but honestly..

I just can't think of a way to penetrate the thick wall of stupid Nightmare has put around himself.

75% webs would be a lot more balanced btw. It would still be very good but not omgwtfbbqOP

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#726 - 2013-12-08 01:42:54 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
I was going to argue some more but honestly..

I just can't think of a way to penetrate the thick wall of stupid Nightmare has put around himself.

75% webs would be a lot more balanced btw. It would still be very good but not omgwtfbbqOP

90% webs are just inline with how powerfull other EW's are on specialized ships.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Suitonia
Order of the Red Kestrel
#727 - 2013-12-08 03:34:56 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
I was going to argue some more but honestly..

I just can't think of a way to penetrate the thick wall of stupid Nightmare has put around himself.

75% webs would be a lot more balanced btw. It would still be very good but not omgwtfbbqOP

90% webs are just inline with how powerfull other EW's are on specialized ships.


No they aren't.

Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#728 - 2013-12-08 04:06:29 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Suitonia wrote:
No they aren't.

Why?

Just because you say 90% are more powerfull it doesn't means it's more powerfull than neuts to take an example. What makes it that slowing down someones ship quite alot is more powerfull than neuts disabling your ship from 30 km so you can't use your tank, MWD, or even guns?

So explain please.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Saeger1737
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#729 - 2013-12-08 05:56:12 UTC
If you neut out the ship the web turns off... Then your free to kill them, or orbit at 10 km with the webs on you put an optimal range disrupt on them and they can't hit you. Bring in scan res damps and he'll not lock you for 45 seconds, or target range damps narrow his lock range to 6 km, or you can ecm him to death and laugh.
Everyday I face these webs in fights and always beat them, out think your enemy because your not playing world of Warcraft, this is eve, there's a learning curve for a reason.

MERC WITH A MOUTH, Send me DPS and my fleet will double it back! Special offer!
Suitonia
Order of the Red Kestrel
#730 - 2013-12-08 06:15:17 UTC
Saeger1737 wrote:
If you neut out the ship the web turns off... Then your free to kill them, or orbit at 10 km with the webs on you put an optimal range disrupt on them and they can't hit you. Bring in scan res damps and he'll not lock you for 45 seconds, or target range damps narrow his lock range to 6 km, or you can ecm him to death and laugh.
Everyday I face these webs in fights and always beat them, out think your enemy because your not playing world of Warcraft, this is eve, there's a learning curve for a reason.


The 90% web ship might not be able to hit you, but everything else in his fleet, XL Weapons included, can apply full DPS to you.

Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#731 - 2013-12-08 06:34:55 UTC
Suitonia wrote:
Saeger1737 wrote:
If you neut out the ship the web turns off... Then your free to kill them, or orbit at 10 km with the webs on you put an optimal range disrupt on them and they can't hit you. Bring in scan res damps and he'll not lock you for 45 seconds, or target range damps narrow his lock range to 6 km, or you can ecm him to death and laugh.
Everyday I face these webs in fights and always beat them, out think your enemy because your not playing world of Warcraft, this is eve, there's a learning curve for a reason.


The 90% web ship might not be able to hit you, but everything else in his fleet, XL Weapons included, can apply full DPS to you.

Yeah, a super carrier might kill you pretty damn fast as well. So what's all the whining about?

Oooohhh nooooooes, some bigger ships might kill you, such a horror.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Suitonia
Order of the Red Kestrel
#732 - 2013-12-08 06:53:31 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Suitonia wrote:
No they aren't.

Why?

Just because you say 90% are more powerfull it doesn't means it's more powerfull than neuts to take an example. What makes it that slowing down someones ship quite alot is more powerfull than neuts disabling your ship from 30 km so you can't use your tank, MWD, or even guns?

So explain please.


Slowing down someone's ship a lot is way more powerful than neuts for almost every ship in the game below BC size. The ability to get tracked by Size+2-3 Weapons. (Dreads/BS Turrets hitting linked max traversal AB Interceptors) is MUCH worse than having every single module shut off for an Interceptor. Interceptors can realistically base-speed tank all BS/Dread Turrets in an engagement providing they are not webbed/have poor traversal. Any active tank/module you can possibly realistically field not working on anything below a Cruiser (Which would get shut off by neuts) is almost always going to be better than getting tracked by everything on the field.

What I said doesn't only apply to Interceptors (Although they are the best example), it applies to almost every ship smaller than a Battlecruiser hull.

Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#733 - 2013-12-08 07:03:28 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Suitonia wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Suitonia wrote:
No they aren't.

Why?

Just because you say 90% are more powerfull it doesn't means it's more powerfull than neuts to take an example. What makes it that slowing down someones ship quite alot is more powerfull than neuts disabling your ship from 30 km so you can't use your tank, MWD, or even guns?

So explain please.


Slowing down someone's ship a lot is way more powerful than neuts for almost every ship in the game below BC size. The ability to get tracked by Size+2-3 Weapons. (Dreads/BS Turrets hitting linked max traversal AB Interceptors) is MUCH worse than having every single module shut off for an Interceptor. Interceptors can realistically base-speed tank all BS/Dread Turrets in an engagement providing they are not webbed/have poor traversal. Any active tank/module you can possibly realistically field not working on anything below a Cruiser (Which would get shut off by neuts) is almost always going to be better than getting tracked by everything on the field.

What I said doesn't only apply to Interceptors (Although they are the best example), it applies to almost every ship smaller than a Battlecruiser hull.

Again, restrict dreads from hitting frigs, destroyers and cruiser sized ships to solve that problem. Titans aren't even allowed to lock battleships and smaller ships to, and it's not an issue for them.

Dreads aren't made to hit those types of small ships. So restricting the dreads from locking those is not gonna harm the dreads in any possible ways.

Why do it the hard way when we can do it the easy way without breaking any of the ships?

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Saeger1737
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#734 - 2013-12-08 08:54:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Saeger1737
Suitonia wrote:
Saeger1737 wrote:
If you neut out the ship the web turns off... Then your free to kill them, or orbit at 10 km with the webs on you put an optimal range disrupt on them and they can't hit you. Bring in scan res damps and he'll not lock you for 45 seconds, or target range damps narrow his lock range to 6 km, or you can ecm him to death and laugh.
Everyday I face these webs in fights and always beat them, out think your enemy because your not playing world of Warcraft, this is eve, there's a learning curve for a reason.


The 90% web ship might not be able to hit you, but everything else in his fleet, XL Weapons included, can apply full DPS to you.
how are they gonna hit you if you've got your transverse up and you've got the guy with the 90% webs damped tracking disrupted and neuter...? Answer that? And this hypothetical situation there are a thousand other factors that can get you killed, and if your not in a fleet doing a big fleet battle, why are you in a frig fighting a vindicator that has dreads with it... Are you stupid? Null sec must be where everyone forgets how to pilot a ship so they blame everything on a mechanic and it gets nerfed why? Cause people don't think they just want the easy road not the hard one where you learn.

Cry your precious tears noob for your hypothetical situation.

MERC WITH A MOUTH, Send me DPS and my fleet will double it back! Special offer!
Suitonia
Order of the Red Kestrel
#735 - 2013-12-08 09:00:20 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Suitonia wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Suitonia wrote:
No they aren't.

Why?

Just because you say 90% are more powerfull it doesn't means it's more powerfull than neuts to take an example. What makes it that slowing down someones ship quite alot is more powerfull than neuts disabling your ship from 30 km so you can't use your tank, MWD, or even guns?

So explain please.


Slowing down someone's ship a lot is way more powerful than neuts for almost every ship in the game below BC size. The ability to get tracked by Size+2-3 Weapons. (Dreads/BS Turrets hitting linked max traversal AB Interceptors) is MUCH worse than having every single module shut off for an Interceptor. Interceptors can realistically base-speed tank all BS/Dread Turrets in an engagement providing they are not webbed/have poor traversal. Any active tank/module you can possibly realistically field not working on anything below a Cruiser (Which would get shut off by neuts) is almost always going to be better than getting tracked by everything on the field.

What I said doesn't only apply to Interceptors (Although they are the best example), it applies to almost every ship smaller than a Battlecruiser hull.

Again, restrict dreads from hitting frigs, destroyers and cruiser sized ships to solve that problem. Titans aren't even allowed to lock battleships and smaller ships to, and it's not an issue for them.

Dreads aren't made to hit those types of small ships. So restricting the dreads from locking those is not gonna harm the dreads in any possible ways.

Why do it the hard way when we can do it the easy way without breaking any of the ships?


If the Vindicator is 'broken' without 90% webs, then I would say that the Vindicator is what is broken. And needs to get a new bonus to put it back on a similar power level. Changing all of the symptoms instead of the Problem is the much more complex and harder way.

Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#736 - 2013-12-08 09:08:16 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Suitonia wrote:
If the Vindicator is 'broken' without 90% webs, then I would say that the Vindicator is what is broken. And needs to get a new bonus to put it back on a similar power level. Changing all of the symptoms instead of the Problem is the much more complex and harder way.

You didn't answer my question.

According to you the Vindicator is broken because of the dreads. But i have given you the fully detailed arguments that the dreads is the problem here and because CCP can fix them instead to fix your sore issue the Vindicator is causing you. Instead of completely destroying the Vindicator as you want.

The dreads are the problem as they are not supposed to hit smaller ships anyways. So why let them lock those smaller ships at all?

EDIT: Vindicator will be completely broken without the 90% web as the ship is made to be depending on the web strength to be able to do what it's supposed to do. In the same way as a Bhaalgorn will be completely useless on what it's supposed to do without the neut bonus. Same with the Falcon. It will just be totally useless without it's jam strength bonuses.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#737 - 2013-12-08 10:22:25 UTC
Saeger1737 wrote:
If you neut out the ship the web turns off... Then your free to kill them, or orbit at 10 km with the webs on you put an optimal range disrupt on them and they can't hit you. Bring in scan res damps and he'll not lock you for 45 seconds, or target range damps narrow his lock range to 6 km, or you can ecm him to death and laugh.
Everyday I face these webs in fights and always beat them, out think your enemy because your not playing world of Warcraft, this is eve, there's a learning curve for a reason.

That's bloody stupid. How do you keep a cap boosting ship neuted so hard that they can't run any mods? And tell me who flies a Battleship with weapons that use cap without a cap booster. I need to know because my Curses and Pilgrims haven't tasted blood for so long.

As for "orbit at 10km with the webs on you"... are you an idiot? We've gone over it so many times that there's no way to orbit at 10km with the webs on you. An afterburning frigate goes slower than a triple trimarked, double plated, slowboating (read: propless) Vindicator when webbed, how the hell is anything that actually stands a chance of winning going to keep an orbit up? In fact, here's a picture. It's a bit of a ****** frigate, but it's either armour and have a web and scram, or it's shield and have a scram but no web.

As for scan res damps, they do sweet **** all if he targets first *or* he gets mostly targeted before the damps hit. The only exception to this is if you're using them in tandem with ECM, but how many ships (and pilots) should equal a single Vindicator?

As for ECM... well, good luck. 28 points of sensor strength base. Skills that's up to 33.6. With Info boosts (not unheard of in this day and age, I personally keep a Claymore and a Damnation booster for whenever I want [leet solo pee vee peer]) that's up to 51. If I decide to put on any ECCM or Sensor Backup Arrays, then there's an extremely low chance. And just because it seems that the odds like ******* people in the ass doesn't mean that ECM will actually work very often.


Basically the only counters I see are range damping scripts, and range. But if he's Skirmish boosted (something everyone, their mom, their dog, and their third cousin has) the range to beat is 25km.
Tawa Suyo
C.O.D.E
#738 - 2013-12-08 11:41:06 UTC
Saeger1737 wrote:
Everyday I face these webs in fights and always beat them


No you don't. Not unless they added 90% webs to highsec miners when I wasn't looking...
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#739 - 2013-12-08 11:51:34 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:

As for scan res damps, they do sweet **** all if he targets first *or* he gets mostly targeted before the damps hit. The only exception to this is if you're using them in tandem with ECM, but how many ships (and pilots) should equal a single Vindicator?


They're actually very good counters, but they're just a generic counter to any ship other than those with lol ewar immunity. Existence of damps, ecm and neuts doesn't mean webs and 90% webs aren't broken.
Sparkus Volundar
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#740 - 2013-12-08 12:11:51 UTC
NightmareX wrote:

But i have given you the fully detailed arguments


They may be fully detailed but they've been based on very poor understandings of game mechanics, flailed all over the place in the face of the logic of others and in general, been a thoroughly entertaining to read.

I bet I'm not the only person that returns to this thread just to see what you write next.

.