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Choosing TP or web (Warning: math inside)
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Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2011-11-20 16:30:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Nalha Saldana
Ive been wondering if i should choose a web or TP in both pve and pvp so i did what any real nerd would do, math.
Here you have the result Google Spreadsheet

If you want to use it go to File -> Make a copy...
Fill in the yellow and orange fields then read the red ones for your results.

Got any questions? Go ahead and ill try to answer as often as possible

If you use/like this please like this post Big smile
Smiling Menace
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2011-11-21 01:20:10 UTC
Thanks, that gave me a headache Lol

Nice all the same.
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2011-11-21 01:37:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Nalha Saldana
Simplified a lot

Made it 1 page only.

Added graphs to make it easier to read.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#4 - 2011-11-21 02:21:35 UTC
I used to pour over the old tracking guide for a sick amount of time trying to create ships capable of hitting 14km/s crows. That of course was back before the projectile buff and before warp scramblers turned off MWD.

The final product that could indeed hit them was a Thrasher with 250mm II arty, a tracking computer w/ tracking script, a tracking enhancer, and a target painter. I couldn't control range at all - even with webs they'd be in and out of 10km range if I blinked- and would coast out even if I did nab them.

The target painter increased my chance to hit up to 19%. That was a small gun shooting a small target. It was closer to 30% - 35% if I was a medium/large gun shooting a smaller target. The target painter worked best through a target's optimal - so really good for artillery and crappy for autocannons. But this was a very niche creation. The CPU on the fitting was tight and the goal was ultra specific.

You will always be better off using a web over a target painter. That's why you don't see Huginn's or Rapier's fielding them. You not only get a higher to hit but also can prevent the target from leaving. So, sadly, Minmatar e-war competes with itself to do the same thing. Straight
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2011-11-21 02:23:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Nalha Saldana
Except for missiles, they gain a lot from 1 web then its most often TPs all the way =)
Sidus Isaacs
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2011-11-21 11:57:24 UTC
The numbers are interesting of course, but in PVP web vs TP is of tactical importance as well, ang quite foten a web is best reagrdless if it gives you better dps or not. Sometimes even two webs :)
JackStraw56
Run Like an Antelope
#7 - 2011-11-21 12:48:55 UTC  |  Edited by: JackStraw56
Very nice spreadsheet, thanks.

I worked on something similar when I was wondering what the best way to hit incursion frigates in pirate battleships was, but I coded in R and made some graphs.

Here's an example of a BS with 400m sig turrets, 0.09 tracking shooting at a frig orbiting at 10km with varying sig radius and transversal: http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/9268/chancetohit.png (a very common situation in an NCO site of an incursion).

Bottom line to me is that both could be equally useful if they were the same strength, but a web lowers speed 60% while a target painter only raises your sig 30-40% so for incursion frig killing purposes, webs are far better. My next step in that code was going to be to add markers where the categories you used would show up: 1 web, 2 web, 1 tp, 2 tp, etch.
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2011-11-21 14:54:01 UTC
JackStraw56 wrote:
Very nice spreadsheet, thanks.

I worked on something similar when I was wondering what the best way to hit incursion frigates in pirate battleships was, but I coded in R and made some graphs.

Here's an example of a BS with 400m sig turrets, 0.09 tracking shooting at a frig orbiting at 10km with varying sig radius and transversal: http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/9268/chancetohit.png (a very common situation in an NCO site of an incursion).

Bottom line to me is that both could be equally useful if they were the same strength, but a web lowers speed 60% while a target painter only raises your sig 30-40% so for incursion frig killing purposes, webs are far better. My next step in that code was going to be to add markers where the categories you used would show up: 1 web, 2 web, 1 tp, 2 tp, etch.


Incursions are actually the reason I made this in the first place, being able to compare different ships/ammo real dps is really nice.

I know there is tactical choices to this in both pve and pvp tbh, its just nice to have a way to get exact math to make choices with.
Mumtaz Khan
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2011-11-21 21:46:23 UTC
In PVE, use target painters. They have way more range. In PVP use a web, because you want to stop ships from burning back to gate.

Of course, if you're in a Vindicator, Paladin or Kronos, go ahead and use your bonuses.
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2011-11-21 21:55:18 UTC
Mumtaz Khan wrote:
In PVE, use target painters. They have way more range. In PVP use a web, because you want to stop ships from burning back to gate.

Of course, if you're in a Vindicator, Paladin or Kronos, go ahead and use your bonuses.


Did you read anything in the thread?
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2011-11-21 21:55:55 UTC
Mumtaz Khan wrote:
In PVE, use target painters. They have way more range. In PVP use a web, because you want to stop ships from burning back to gate.

Of course, if you're in a Vindicator, Paladin or Kronos, go ahead and use your bonuses.


Don't paint with too broad of a brush...I run with dualwebs when using my armor 'Cane against Sleepers because I need the range control capabilities (my speed advantage in that case is rather small, and like many armor buffer ships, my Hurricane doesn't fit any tracking mods). Then again, I'm the crazy guy who PvEs in PvP ships. You're better off figuring out what works for your situation than trying to overgeneralize.
Marcus Henik
Rules of Acquisition
#12 - 2011-11-22 01:36:23 UTC
In gang pvp at some point stack nerf comes into play, hopefully a well thought out gang will have a good smattering of tps, bomber gangs especially benefit from a mix.
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2011-11-22 01:54:47 UTC
Marcus Henik wrote:
In gang pvp at some point stack nerf comes into play, hopefully a well thought out gang will have a good smattering of tps, bomber gangs especially benefit from a mix.


Bombs are not affected by the targets speed at all so TPs are the only thing that counts. If we are talking torps, well just enter the numbers to the sheet Blink
JackStraw56
Run Like an Antelope
#14 - 2011-11-22 14:31:17 UTC
Nalha Saldana wrote:
JackStraw56 wrote:
Very nice spreadsheet, thanks.

I worked on something similar when I was wondering what the best way to hit incursion frigates in pirate battleships was, but I coded in R and made some graphs.

Here's an example of a BS with 400m sig turrets, 0.09 tracking shooting at a frig orbiting at 10km with varying sig radius and transversal: http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/9268/chancetohit.png (a very common situation in an NCO site of an incursion).

Bottom line to me is that both could be equally useful if they were the same strength, but a web lowers speed 60% while a target painter only raises your sig 30-40% so for incursion frig killing purposes, webs are far better. My next step in that code was going to be to add markers where the categories you used would show up: 1 web, 2 web, 1 tp, 2 tp, etch.


Incursions are actually the reason I made this in the first place, being able to compare different ships/ammo real dps is really nice.

I know there is tactical choices to this in both pve and pvp tbh, its just nice to have a way to get exact math to make choices with.

What surprised me about the image I linked is how small band is for the middle percentage hits (25%-75% ish). You basically are gonna hit pretty good most of the time or pretty bad, not much in the middle ground.
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2011-11-22 14:51:36 UTC
Thats is because of a very simple reason, your gun have set values and that band is where the enemy's numbers are close to the guns in this formula http://wiki.eve-id.net/images/math/4/8/3/483f203c43470d4799b213d80b5a2740.png
JackStraw56
Run Like an Antelope
#16 - 2011-11-22 15:25:51 UTC
Nalha Saldana wrote:
Thats is because of a very simple reason, your gun have set values and that band is where the enemy's numbers are close to the guns in this formula http://wiki.eve-id.net/images/math/4/8/3/483f203c43470d4799b213d80b5a2740.png

Yeah, those values are fixed in game as well though (except transversal and range to target). So I guess my point is that it illustrates that there's a thin line between hitting for close to full damage and hitting for very little damage at all, without much in between.
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2011-11-22 16:06:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Nalha Saldana
You are looking at your picture with too broad values then, its most likely going to look like something like this
http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/9268/chancetohit.png
Which means you're never going to have 100% miss or hit but somewhere in between.