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[NERF] Serpentis web bonus change

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Tawa Suyo
C.O.D.E
#701 - 2013-12-07 21:25:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Tawa Suyo
NightmareX wrote:
Tawa Suyo wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Without the Dreads being able to lock on Cruisers and frig sized ships, there is basicly no ships in EVE that will have ANY issues to hit any ships that is 60% webbed by 3 normal ships anyways. Carriers use neuts and drones witch will hit you no matter what. So what is the issue here then?



http://i.imgur.com/R9ubVDN.png


That is an AB-ing dramiel with max transversal being shot by both a navy mega with 3 60% webs (the red line) and a vindicator with just one 90% web (the green line). Both ships are using neutron cannons with CN antimatter and no weapon mods (either damage or tracking).

So what you said is completely wrong. Would you like to try again?

And what speed does the Dramiel have and how many webs does the Megathron have?

But it's quite stunning that you don't get the point that Vindicator's role is to slow down fast ships so everyone can hit them quite good. Serpentis ships are the ONLY ships in EVE who can do that.

Can i ask what's so wrong with that?



I have edited the graph since I made a fairly elementary mistake, however, previously and now, I have put how many webs each has.

The mega has 4 webs, the vindi (now) has two webs.

The graph shows you what's wrong with that.


But if you're ok with the vindis role being a webbing ship, you'd be ok with it having the guns removed?


For clarity;

http://i.imgur.com/zlu5JEo.png


Vindicator has 2x 90% webs
NMega has 4x 60% webs (near stacking penalties max)
Both have the same tracking
Each has roughly the same dps (4% more raw dps for vindicator)
Dramiel has 1750m/s base speed before webs



Vindicator can apply dps 500%-2500% better.

Why do you think that is balanced?
Tawa Suyo
C.O.D.E
#702 - 2013-12-07 21:34:47 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Question is, will a 82.5% web effect be any different than 90% web effect in actual PVP?


Yes. Vastly. In fact, it's been suggested in this thread that 75% webs would be balanced.


Do you really not grasp the tracking and web stacking formulae?
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#703 - 2013-12-07 21:38:24 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Tawa Suyo wrote:
Why do you think that is balanced?

Because you are paying tons of isk to get that benefit. Vindicator is a DPS and webbing ship, so yes, the guns will stay.

Not only that, but fit 1 web on the Vindicator and 4 on the Megathron. I want to see the stats there.

EDIT: The fact that you have to use a Vindicator to be able to hit smaller stuffs that good in a battleship, says enough. A normal battleship with 1-2 webs isn't supposed to hit frigs at all in a single battleship, for the most part. So you are comparing oranges to potatoes.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Tawa Suyo
C.O.D.E
#704 - 2013-12-07 21:45:21 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Tawa Suyo wrote:
Why do you think that is balanced?

Because you are paying tons of isk to get that benefit. Vindicator is a DPS and webbing ship, so yes, the guns will stay.

Not only that, but fit 1 web on the Vindicator and 4 on the Megathron. I want to see the stats there.

EDIT: The fact that you have to use a Vindicator to be able to hit smaller stuffs that good, says enough. A normal battleship with 1-2 webs isn't supposed to hit frigs at all, for the most part. SO you are comparing oranges to potatoes.


The entire principle of ISK balancing stats is that your pay increasing large amount of ISK for diminishing returns on power increases. That doesn't mean getting the most powerful aggressive ewar in the game for a relatively small amount of ISK.



And yes, a battleship with infinite 60% webs will not hit a frig with max transversal, but it will hit one with two 90% webs on it. This is why 90% webs are overpowered. Because they enable things that are not possible in any other way and break the game balance.

Also, I believe your previous statement was;

NightmareX wrote:
Without the Dreads being able to lock on Cruisers and frig sized ships, there is basicly no ships in EVE that will have ANY issues to hit any ships that is 60% webbed by 3 normal ships anyways. Carriers use neuts and drones witch will hit you no matter what. So what is the issue here then?


That clearly isn't true.
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#705 - 2013-12-07 21:48:38 UTC
Tawa Suyo wrote:
And yes, a battleship with infinite 60% webs will not hit a frig with max transversal, but it will hit one with two 90% webs on it. This is why 90% webs are overpowered. Because they enable things that are not possible in any other way and break the game balance.

I call that balance as there is ONLY 1 battleship in the whole EVE that is capable of webbing that much. Again, 1 single battleship that you have to pay lots of isk for to get that benefit.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Tawa Suyo
C.O.D.E
#706 - 2013-12-07 21:55:01 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Tawa Suyo wrote:
And yes, a battleship with infinite 60% webs will not hit a frig with max transversal, but it will hit one with two 90% webs on it. This is why 90% webs are overpowered. Because they enable things that are not possible in any other way and break the game balance.

I call that balance as there is ONLY 1 battleship in the whole EVE that is capable of webbing that much. Again, 1 single battleship that you have to pay lots of isk for to get that benefit.


Also 2 cruisers and 2 frigates. All of those need the 90% web removed. Because 90% webs are too powerful.


And pirate battleships, (including the vindicator) are cheap. A ship of that cost applying an aggressive ewar that is better than anything in game is a bargin.


Are you really trying to argue that a ship that is more powerful than anything else in game is balanced because it's the only one that's more powerful than anything else in game? That's the definition of something being overpowered.
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#707 - 2013-12-07 21:59:59 UTC
Tawa Suyo wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Tawa Suyo wrote:
And yes, a battleship with infinite 60% webs will not hit a frig with max transversal, but it will hit one with two 90% webs on it. This is why 90% webs are overpowered. Because they enable things that are not possible in any other way and break the game balance.

I call that balance as there is ONLY 1 battleship in the whole EVE that is capable of webbing that much. Again, 1 single battleship that you have to pay lots of isk for to get that benefit.


Also 2 cruisers and 2 frigates. All of those need the 90% web removed. Because 90% webs are too powerful.


And pirate battleships, (including the vindicator) are cheap. A ship of that cost applying an aggressive ewar that is better than anything in game is a bargin.


Are you really trying to argue that a ship that is more powerful than anything else in game is balanced because it's the only one that's more powerful than anything else in game? That's the definition of something being overpowered.

LOL, so basicly, like i said earlier, just because you THINK 90% web is to powerfull doesn't make it any overpowered at all.

Because i can't find any reasons why it's overpowered when you have to pay over 1 billion isk for it and at the same time it's the ONLY battleship in EVE Online that is capable of doing that.

Why is that not balanced when it's just one Battleship doing that?

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Tawa Suyo
C.O.D.E
#708 - 2013-12-07 22:05:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Tawa Suyo
NightmareX wrote:
Why is that not balanced when it's just one Battleship doing that?



o_o

...

http://i.imgur.com/4Eeia.gif
Gigan Amilupar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#709 - 2013-12-07 22:09:43 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Tawa Suyo wrote:
And yes, a battleship with infinite 60% webs will not hit a frig with max transversal, but it will hit one with two 90% webs on it. This is why 90% webs are overpowered. Because they enable things that are not possible in any other way and break the game balance.

I call that balance as there is ONLY 1 battleship in the whole EVE that is capable of webbing that much. Again, 1 single battleship that you have to pay lots of isk for to get that benefit.


Price is not a balancing factor. To put this more simply, ship effectiveness is the independent variable, and ship price is the dependent variable. For instance, the new Stratios BP costs 30m ISK + 120,000 LP (from SoE). The BP then uses about 10m in minerals to make (when I built mine). That brings the isk cost of the Stratios to 40m + 120,000 LP. And yet the stratios is currently selling on the market for over 500m. It's the value of the ship itself, determined by it's stats, benefits and niche use that drives its cost in the mind of players. You paying 1.16b for a vindicator hull is not in of itself an argument that the ship should be good. Rather, the ship costs 1.16b because it's good. Will the price of the ship drop if CCP nerfs the 90% web bonus a bit? Yes. Is that a good reason not to fix mechanics for which the general opinion is that they are OP? No, it's not.

Should the webbing bonus be removed? No, definitely not. CCP has even stated that they are happy Serpentis have a strong role for their ships and they want to model the other pirate faction ships to be the same way. Should the web bonus see a reduction? I would support that. Let's see CCP reduce the bonus (to say, 75%), test it internally, then publicly test it, and if they think it's going well, implement it. But hanging on to a mechanic that, when people run the numbers on it, allows for things to happen that cannot be recreated outside of the bonus in any scenario for no reason other then preserving the current ISK value of the ship line is ridiculous.
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#710 - 2013-12-07 22:14:40 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Gigan Amilupar wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Tawa Suyo wrote:
And yes, a battleship with infinite 60% webs will not hit a frig with max transversal, but it will hit one with two 90% webs on it. This is why 90% webs are overpowered. Because they enable things that are not possible in any other way and break the game balance.

I call that balance as there is ONLY 1 battleship in the whole EVE that is capable of webbing that much. Again, 1 single battleship that you have to pay lots of isk for to get that benefit.


Price is not a balancing factor. To put this more simply, ship effectiveness is the independent variable, and ship price is the dependent variable. For instance, the new Stratios BP costs 30m ISK + 120,000 LP (from SoE). The BP then uses about 10m in minerals to make (when I built mine). That brings the isk cost of the Stratios to 40m + 120,000 LP. And yet the stratios is currently selling on the market for over 500m. It's the value of the ship itself, determined by it's stats, benefits and niche use that drives its cost in the mind of players. You paying 1.16b for a vindicator hull is not in of itself an argument that the ship should be good. Rather, the ship costs 1.16b because it's good. Will the price of the ship drop if CCP nerfs the 90% web bonus a bit? Yes. Is that a good reason not to fix mechanics for which the general opinion is that they are OP? No, it's not.

Should the webbing bonus be removed? No, definitely not. CCP has even stated that they are happy Serpentis have a strong role for their ships and they want to model the other pirate faction ships to be the same way. Should the web bonus see a reduction? I would support that. Let's see CCP reduce the bonus (to say, 75%), test it internally, then publicly test it, and if they think it's going well, implement it. But hanging on to a mechanic that, when people run the numbers on it, allows for things to happen that cannot be recreated outside of the bonus in any scenario for no reason other then preserving the current ISK value of the ship line is ridiculous.

Still, only 1 battleship is capable of webbing that much in EVE Online. I would agree it would be an issue if 30 different ships could do that, but that's not the case.

Why is that an issue as only 1 expensive battleship or 3 smaller ships can do that?

As ECM is the most powerfull EW in the game, don't you think that it's right that the Falcon should lose it's range bonuses to ECM as that's the only ship in EVE who can ECM effectively from 70 km?

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Gigan Amilupar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#711 - 2013-12-07 22:25:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Gigan Amilupar
NightmareX wrote:
Still, only 1 battleship is capable of webbing that much in EVE Online. I would agree it would be an issue if 30 different ships could do that, but that's not the case.

Why is that an issue as only 1 expensive battleship can do that?


The problem is that the bonuses themselves are too strong. The fact that only one battleship sized ship has those bonuses, would if anything, only further cement them as being overpowered. But the reality is no one is upset that the Vindicator is the only battleship that has bonuses to webbing. People are upset because said bonuses to webbing make the webs vastly superior to any other kind of webbing that can be accomplished. On all ships of the Serpentis line.

Neither being "expensive" nor a special snowflake is a justification for an overpowered bonus (with the exception, perhaps, of alliance tournament prize ships, i.e. the Chremoas).
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#712 - 2013-12-07 22:27:48 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Gigan Amilupar wrote:
The problem is that the bonuses themselves are too strong.

As much as the Falcon's ECM strenght is to powerfull as the Falcon is the only ECM ship in the game who effectively can jam you from 70 km?

Should we nerf the jam strenghts on the Falcon to as it's to powerfull?

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Gigan Amilupar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#713 - 2013-12-07 22:32:18 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Gigan Amilupar wrote:
The problem is that the bonuses themselves are too strong.

As much as the Falcon's ECM strenght is to powerfull as the Falconis the only ECM ship in the game who effectively can jam you from 70 km?

Should we nerf the ECM ranges on the Falcon to as it's to powerfull?


If CCP deems that the Falcons ability to use ECM is an overpowering force multiplier in the same way they perceive 90% webs, and if the general consensus is that yes, the falcon is too strong comparatively, then yes. That's how balancing mechanics works. It's fine for some ships to be better at certain things then others. It's not fine for them to completely overpower any competition. CCP thinks 90% webs are too powerful of a force multiplier to call them adequately balanced, and many people agree. I'm not going to explain this any more.
Tawa Suyo
C.O.D.E
#714 - 2013-12-07 22:34:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Tawa Suyo
NightmareX wrote:
Gigan Amilupar wrote:
The problem is that the bonuses themselves are too strong.

As much as the Falcon's ECM strenght is to powerfull as the Falcon is the only ECM ship in the game who effectively can jam you from 70 km?

Should we nerf the jam strenghts on the Falcon to as it's to powerfull?



Yes.
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#715 - 2013-12-07 22:37:15 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Tawa Suyo wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Gigan Amilupar wrote:
The problem is that the bonuses themselves are too strong.

As much as the Falcon's ECM strenght is to powerfull as the Falcon is the only ECM ship in the game who effectively can jam you from 70 km?

Should we nerf the jam strenghts on the Falcon to as it's to powerfull?



Yes.

So in other words, there are alot of ships in EVE who are very specialized at doing things much better than other ships are doing it.

You just have to HTFU and live with it that EVE have alot of powerfull ships that does it's special abilities much better than other normal ships does.

Also, webbing strength (as that just slows your ship down) is not any more powerfull than neuting (as that can disable your active modules on your ships) and ECM (that makes you unable to defend your self), then there isn't any issues with the web strength over what issues or things the other specialized ships in EVE can do.

What about the Arazu that can warp disrupt you from 72 km with a Domi Disruptor overloaded before any fleet bonuses?

That isn't overpowered at all considering what you are paying for the ship?

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Gigan Amilupar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#716 - 2013-12-07 22:48:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Gigan Amilupar
NightmareX wrote:
Tawa Suyo wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Gigan Amilupar wrote:
The problem is that the bonuses themselves are too strong.

As much as the Falcon's ECM strenght is to powerfull as the Falcon is the only ECM ship in the game who effectively can jam you from 70 km?

Should we nerf the jam strenghts on the Falcon to as it's to powerfull?



Yes.

So in other words, there are alot of ships in EVE who are very specialized at doing things much better than other ships are doing it.

You just have to HTFU and live with it that EVE have alot of powerfull ships that does it's special abilities much better than other normal ships does.

Also, webbing strength (as that just slows your ship down) is not any more powerfull than neuting (as that can disable your active modules on your ships) and ECM (that makes you unable to defend your self), then there isn't any issues with the web strength over what issues or things the other specialized ships in EVE can do.


Ok, I said I wasn't going to explain this any further, but ok. One more time.

It's not a problem that a ship is specialized, it is a problem when it's more then just good (read: overpowered) at what it's specialized in.

We are not arguing the merits of webbing as a mechanic. We are certainly not arguing its merits compared to neuts or ECM. We are arguing that it's bonuses are too strong, even for a specialization, because of their use as a force multiplier. And we are arguing that they should be reduced as a result. And CCP agrees with this sentiment, they're the ones who brought it up. Don't tell people to HTFU when you arguing that your ship should retain its benefits based on how much you paid (in ISK) for it, or that other ships may be unbalanced, so it should be unbalanced as well.
Suitonia
Order of the Red Kestrel
#717 - 2013-12-07 22:48:33 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Tawa Suyo wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Gigan Amilupar wrote:
The problem is that the bonuses themselves are too strong.

As much as the Falcon's ECM strenght is to powerfull as the Falcon is the only ECM ship in the game who effectively can jam you from 70 km?

Should we nerf the jam strenghts on the Falcon to as it's to powerfull?



Yes.

So in other words, there are alot of ships in EVE who are very specialized at doing things much better than other ships are doing it.

You just have to HTFU and live with it that EVE have alot of powerfull ships that does it's special abilities much better than other normal ships does.

Also, webbing strength (as that just slows your ship down) is not any more powerfull than neuting (as that can disable your active modules on your ships) and ECM (that makes you unable to defend your self), then there isn't any issues with the web strength over what issues or things the other specialized ships in EVE can do.


Cruor, Ashimmu, Daredevil and Vigilant all have 90% webs too. (And prior to Rubicon, the Kronos and Paladin did too).

Comparing mechanics is absolutely irreverent as it depends on the relative strength of the modules themselves. If the BR line had neuts that were 400% better than regular neuts, and neuts were stacking penalized then there would definitely be a problem there.

Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#718 - 2013-12-07 22:54:34 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Suitonia wrote:
Cruor, Ashimmu, Daredevil and Vigilant all have 90% webs too. (And prior to Rubicon, the Kronos and Paladin did too).

Comparing mechanics is absolutely irreverent as it depends on the relative strength of the modules themselves. If the BR line had neuts that were 400% better than regular neuts, and neuts were stacking penalized then there would definitely be a problem there.

I know those ships do 90% webs to. So in total, 5 ships in total are able to 90% web you. That means, it's not an issue.

I gave good examples that both Falcon and Arazu is more powerfull as a 90% web on a Vindicator just slows you down.

Can you explain why a 90% web on a Vindicator is more powerfull than a Falcon jamming you and disable you from defending your self effectively from 70 km?

I'm just pointing out why the Vindicator isn't the only ship in EVE who have very powerfull bonuses. This is EVE and this is where things might not work the way you want things to work.

EDIT: Gonna add this to. There haven't been a single topic where someone have complained about the 90% web effect being to strong AT ALL on those ships with that bonus since the Vindicator and the other webbing strength ships got it's 99% web effect reduced to 90% here on the forum. The whining just suddenly started after this topic started. Says enough that 90% web effect isn't an issue at all.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Suitonia
Order of the Red Kestrel
#719 - 2013-12-07 23:13:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Suitonia
NightmareX wrote:
Suitonia wrote:
Cruor, Ashimmu, Daredevil and Vigilant all have 90% webs too. (And prior to Rubicon, the Kronos and Paladin did too).

Comparing mechanics is absolutely irreverent as it depends on the relative strength of the modules themselves. If the BR line had neuts that were 400% better than regular neuts, and neuts were stacking penalized then there would definitely be a problem there.

I know those ships do 90% webs to. So in total, 5 ships in total are able to 90% web you. That means, it's not an issue.

I gave good examples that both Falcon and Arazu is more powerfull as a 90% web on a Vindicator just slows you down.

Can you explain why a 90% web on a Vindicator is more powerfull than a Falcon jamming you and disable you from defending your self effectively from 70 km?

I'm just pointing out why the Vindicator isn't the only ship in EVE who have very powerfull bonuses. This is EVE and this is where things might not work the way you want things to work.

EDIT: Gonna add this to. There haven't been a single topic where someone have complained about the 90% web effect being to strong AT ALL on those ships with that bonus since the Vindicator and the other webbing strength ships got it's 99% web effect reduced to 90% here on the forum. The whining just suddenly started after this topic started. Says enough that 90% web effect isn't an issue at all.


In total, there were only 4 ships that can Remote AoE Doomsday you. That means, it's not an issue.

The Falcon and Arazu are strong control ships. But you are comparing Apples to Oranges. A Falcon can prevent you from locking but it doesn't stop you from traversal tanking, kiting or moving. There are also modules in the game to counter ECM, as terrible a mechanic as it is.

Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#720 - 2013-12-07 23:17:25 UTC
Suitonia wrote:
There are also modules in the game to counter ECM, as terrible a mechanic as it is.

Yeah, there is also alot of modules that can counter 90% webs to. Use those and be happy.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama