These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Are the days of Local really numbered?

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Serptimis
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#121 - 2013-12-07 11:55:51 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
You're not going to get blinded, they're aware of how insane it would make the life of people if suddenly local was just gone, and thats not at all whats being suggested by anybody. CCP plainly states that they'll replace it with SOMETHING, but it will just be something slightly less efficient or more effort intensive than 'watch window get info'.

TL;DR you wont be totally blind like some people in this thread are making out, but it likely wont be the easy mode it is now.

So in other words, we don't actually disagree.

Welcome to the EVE O forums where reasonable people who don't actually disagree end up at each others throats.
I find it amusing that all those ratter hunters who think just dropping local and leaving every thing else as is would lead to some carebear hunting turkey shoot utopia.
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#122 - 2013-12-07 12:01:08 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Regional/constellation intel is probably not a good idea, because in some respects that actually gives even more information than local already does.

I agree, but it depends on what it is required to get that intel. Say, intel channels can work like this and I've never seen anybody complaining. Although those channels often (not always, obviously) rely on aforementioned local to function...

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#123 - 2013-12-07 12:03:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Spankerz wrote:
If the Local days are numbered, so are sub for my 7 alts..

/Waiting for Biomass command.


That is silly, you have more reason to need them, like parked on both side of a gate for example...

I have been one of the posters on a number of threads pointing out that a badly thought out and executed removal of local could have some serious negative impacts on the game, however I will wait and I will try them out, and if it means that I have no chance to get out even playing intelligently with two accounts and all I get from CCP is HTFU then I will make the decision to stop playing, but here is the rub, I will wait and see what it is and whether it will stay like that if not suitable, also should I stop playing I will keep tabs on the game so if they make it better then I will come back, isn't that what you really meant to say?

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Anomaly One
Doomheim
#124 - 2013-12-07 12:06:41 UTC
I don't think anyone actually wants local to be entirely removed and not get replaced by something, it would be pretty boring and really bad design to just get rid of it, since CCP wants every part of space to have its own niche they won't make wh and null alike (from a local standpoint)

so.. anyone got any idea what will be the replacement ? something to do with scanning skills perhaps, POS radars on owned sov, beacons, launching out probing drones, maybe an anchored beam that can be destroyed to black out the system of intel... hmm... commence speculations!

CCP got a chance to hit it big here! (for everyone involved)

Never forget. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8sfaN8zT8E http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5l_ZjVyRxx4 Trust me, I'm an Anomaly. DUST 514 FOR PC
Spankerz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#125 - 2013-12-07 12:18:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Spankerz
Dracvlad wrote:
Spankerz wrote:
If the Local days are numbered, so are sub for my 7 alts..

/Waiting for Biomass command.


That is silly, you have more reason to need them, like parked on both side of a gate for example...

I have been one of the posters on a number of threads pointing out that a badly thought out and executed removal of local could have some serious negative impacts on the game, however I will wait and I will try them out, and if it means that I have no chance to get out even playing intelligently with two accounts and all I get from CCP is HTFU then I will make the decision to stop playing, but here is the rub, I will wait and see what it is and whether it will stay like that if not suitable, also should I stop playing I will keep tabs on the game so if they make it better then I will come back, isn't that what you really meant to say?



Sure, If the new system is as easy as local. (But this wont happen - as the CCPs intention here is to make it harder to obtain Intel)

But if someone has to constantly operate 3+ alts (by this I mean click back and forth/scanner etc.) just to see who and when is going to jump on you when you are just trying to relax and make some isk for your PvP ships... meh.

Also - forget about flashy Navy/Pirate battleship ratters. - which now is easy enough to catch Even with local. The sight of these ships in null will probably be 0 without Local.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#126 - 2013-12-07 12:34:00 UTC
let's hope dscan gets replaced, too, eh
Good Posting
Doomheim
#127 - 2013-12-07 12:41:43 UTC
"If you do this and i will unsub"

Please get out.
Spankerz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#128 - 2013-12-07 12:53:44 UTC
Good Posting wrote:
"If you do this and i will unsub"

Please get out.


Sure thing:) I will, don't you worry \o/
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#129 - 2013-12-07 13:03:59 UTC
Spankerz wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Spankerz wrote:
If the Local days are numbered, so are sub for my 7 alts..

/Waiting for Biomass command.


That is silly, you have more reason to need them, like parked on both side of a gate for example...

I have been one of the posters on a number of threads pointing out that a badly thought out and executed removal of local could have some serious negative impacts on the game, however I will wait and I will try them out, and if it means that I have no chance to get out even playing intelligently with two accounts and all I get from CCP is HTFU then I will make the decision to stop playing, but here is the rub, I will wait and see what it is and whether it will stay like that if not suitable, also should I stop playing I will keep tabs on the game so if they make it better then I will come back, isn't that what you really meant to say?



Sure, If the new system is as easy as local. (But this wont happen - as the CCPs intention here is to make it harder to obtain Intel)

But if someone has to constantly operate 3+ alts (by this I mean click back and forth/scanner etc.) just to see who and when is going to jump on you when you are just trying to relax and make some isk for your PvP ships... meh.

Also - forget about flashy Navy/Pirate battleship ratters. - which now is easy enough to catch Even with local. The sight of these ships in null will probably be 0 without Local.


I operate in 0.0 because I want it to be a challenge, there are ways to do this that enable people like me to operate like a proximate alert when a warp field is picked up within say 10 AU (should include cloaked ships in this to, or have that at 5 AU) but its really a case of wait and see what is proposed.

The worst thing is removing local with some sort of mad D-scan type clicking and leaving all the intel in the map and Dotlan, for me that would be silly and I would give CCP the middle finger with the loss of both my paid for with RL money accounts, but I will wait and see. As I said, this is something that CCP has to get right, simple as.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
flakeys
Doomheim
#130 - 2013-12-07 13:23:15 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
flakeys wrote:
I can see your point , however enlighten me how the underlined is not the same as the empire miner telling us he had fit no tank against ganks because it would make his minerals mined per hour suffer badly?

You know the guys we like to point and laugh at ?


The thing is that "PvE fit" means shooting into the rats' weakest resistances, because ratting with, say, lasers in Guristas/Serpentis space is just ridiculous. It also means tanking for the rats' damage, which excludes EANMs and invulns.

If you want to log in and rat for an hour or two to keep your wallet afloat, you really don't want to spend time looking for somebody to fly a scimitar alongside you which would mean that you'd have to spend twice the amount of time shooting red crosses than you otherwise would, because 0.0 anomalies don't reward group play at all.


I know what a pve/pvp fit is and how people in null run anomolies etc , my game experience lies in all fields besides wormholes , the question was not related to what null ratting is the question was what the difference was between isk/hour ratting tengu excuse and isk/hour mining barge excuse .


So the reasons we have now as to why it should be changed is :

-We want a pure pve fit BUT add extra pvp abilities otherwise our isk/hour ratio is lower when ratting.
-We want to solo it otherwise we'll have to group and that would mean less isk/hour , effort.


Now empire dwellers who are formiliar with the high-sec vs null-sec threads by now should **** their pants from the irony overload here.


We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#131 - 2013-12-07 13:39:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Richard Desturned
flakeys wrote:
I know what a pve/pvp fit is and how people in null run anomolies etc , my game experience lies in all fields besides wormholes , the question was not related to what null ratting is the question was what the difference was between isk/hour ratting tengu excuse and isk/hour mining barge excuse .


So the reasons we have now as to why it should be changed is :

-We want a pure pve fit BUT add extra pvp abilities otherwise our isk/hour ratio is lower when ratting.
-We want to solo it otherwise we'll have to group and that would mean less isk/hour , effort.


Now empire dwellers who are formiliar with the high-sec vs null-sec threads by now should **** their pants from the irony overload here.


The difference is that miners were sacrificing all their tanking ability for the sake of eking out 5% more ore than they otherwise would. When you're talking about nullsec anomalies, a PvP fit just isn't viable. Not because it generates less isk/hour, but because anomalies completely disincetivize group play simply because of how bounty payouts work.

Telling people to just run anomalies in groups just means "give roaming gangs more kills" or "stop doing PvE in 0.0 and run hisec incursions which are far more lucrative anyway"

Try not putting words in my mouth!

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#132 - 2013-12-07 13:50:46 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Oh you're 100% right, the feeds that give all that intel on rats and jumps and crap like that would have to get shut off, its just too much of a boon to the hunter, if everybody is blinded then everybody has to be blinded.

HOWEVER

You're not going to get blinded, they're aware of how insane it would make the life of people if suddenly local was just gone, and thats not at all whats being suggested by anybody. CCP plainly states that they'll replace it with SOMETHING, but it will just be something slightly less efficient or more effort intensive than 'watch window get info'.

TL;DR you wont be totally blind like some people in this thread are making out, but it likely wont be the easy mode it is now.


Yes, in an ideal world CCP will remove local in all of k-space and add different intel tools at the same time, but instead they'll completely botch the latter or say "yeah expect it Soon™" and nullsec will be a desert with nary a tumbleweed because either some genius will decide that cloaks will completely trump it or it won't ship for 3 years. That, or it will work not much unlike local does now and the same people will continue complaining.

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
flakeys
Doomheim
#133 - 2013-12-07 14:16:40 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
flakeys wrote:
I know what a pve/pvp fit is and how people in null run anomolies etc , my game experience lies in all fields besides wormholes , the question was not related to what null ratting is the question was what the difference was between isk/hour ratting tengu excuse and isk/hour mining barge excuse .


So the reasons we have now as to why it should be changed is :

-We want a pure pve fit BUT add extra pvp abilities otherwise our isk/hour ratio is lower when ratting.
-We want to solo it otherwise we'll have to group and that would mean less isk/hour , effort.


Now empire dwellers who are formiliar with the high-sec vs null-sec threads by now should **** their pants from the irony overload here.


The difference is that miners were sacrificing all their tanking ability for the sake of eking out 5% more ore than they otherwise would. When you're talking about nullsec anomalies, a PvP fit just isn't viable. Not because it generates less isk/hour, but because anomalies completely disincetivize group play simply because of how bounty payouts work.



So how does the bounty payout keep you from grouping?Enlighten me that please.

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#134 - 2013-12-07 14:20:51 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
let's hope dscan gets replaced, too, eh


DSCAN is even worse than local.

*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click*,*click*, *click* OH HEY I SAW SOMETHING FINALLY

is not good gameplay.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#135 - 2013-12-07 14:22:49 UTC
flakeys wrote:
So how does the bounty payout keep you from grouping?Enlighten me that please.



The fact that you'd be better off running incursions in hisec at that point?

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#136 - 2013-12-07 14:25:07 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Oh you're 100% right, the feeds that give all that intel on rats and jumps and crap like that would have to get shut off, its just too much of a boon to the hunter, if everybody is blinded then everybody has to be blinded.

HOWEVER

You're not going to get blinded, they're aware of how insane it would make the life of people if suddenly local was just gone, and thats not at all whats being suggested by anybody. CCP plainly states that they'll replace it with SOMETHING, but it will just be something slightly less efficient or more effort intensive than 'watch window get info'.

TL;DR you wont be totally blind like some people in this thread are making out, but it likely wont be the easy mode it is now.


Yes, in an ideal world CCP will remove local in all of k-space and add different intel tools at the same time, but instead they'll completely botch the latter or say "yeah expect it Soon™" and nullsec will be a desert with nary a tumbleweed because either some genius will decide that cloaks will completely trump it or it won't ship for 3 years. That, or it will work not much unlike local does now and the same people will continue complaining.


Yeah no, actually CCP are pretty clear that any change in the way local works has to be preceeded by a working alternative that isn't powered by tendons that are white-hot with RSI induced agony. That's the main hold up.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#137 - 2013-12-07 14:32:24 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Oh you're 100% right, the feeds that give all that intel on rats and jumps and crap like that would have to get shut off, its just too much of a boon to the hunter, if everybody is blinded then everybody has to be blinded.

HOWEVER

You're not going to get blinded, they're aware of how insane it would make the life of people if suddenly local was just gone, and thats not at all whats being suggested by anybody. CCP plainly states that they'll replace it with SOMETHING, but it will just be something slightly less efficient or more effort intensive than 'watch window get info'.

TL;DR you wont be totally blind like some people in this thread are making out, but it likely wont be the easy mode it is now.


Yes, in an ideal world CCP will remove local in all of k-space and add different intel tools at the same time, but instead they'll completely botch the latter or say "yeah expect it Soon™" and nullsec will be a desert with nary a tumbleweed because either some genius will decide that cloaks will completely trump it or it won't ship for 3 years. That, or it will work not much unlike local does now and the same people will continue complaining.


Yeah no, actually CCP are pretty clear that any change in the way local works has to be preceeded by a working alternative that isn't powered by tendons that are white-hot with RSI induced agony. That's the main hold up.


In which case I have some hope, I hope its something that picks up a warp field...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#138 - 2013-12-07 15:02:03 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
...Yeah no, actually CCP are pretty clear that any change in the way local works has to be preceeded by a working alternative that isn't powered by tendons that are white-hot with RSI induced agony. That's the main hold up.

Pfft, the main holdup is as always the lack of rational thinking individuals, balls, willingness to sacrifice/bleed/sweat and office politics.
All three of my suggestions from page six (p6) ticks all the relevant boxes, can be combined and took a grand total of twenty minutes to come up with, majority of which was spent making the thoughts intelligible to a reader.

Then you have the reluctance to dig into the legacy code dating back to the time when Eve was spawned as they are afraid to cause a fail-cascade .. good to be cautious but surely there must be ways around such things or we'd have been playing an 8-bit game.
They are facing the same with regard to POS, old code they and most of us are not really fond of but yanking it ...

CCP ought to put a few man-years into wrecking a development server install and get rid of all the apparently poorly documented legacy code once and for all so forward (bolded because it is currently an illusion consisting of band-aids upon band-aids) movement in Eve can be a made a reality rather than merely a nerdgasm.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#139 - 2013-12-07 15:03:47 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Oh you're 100% right, the feeds that give all that intel on rats and jumps and crap like that would have to get shut off, its just too much of a boon to the hunter, if everybody is blinded then everybody has to be blinded.

HOWEVER

You're not going to get blinded, they're aware of how insane it would make the life of people if suddenly local was just gone, and thats not at all whats being suggested by anybody. CCP plainly states that they'll replace it with SOMETHING, but it will just be something slightly less efficient or more effort intensive than 'watch window get info'.

TL;DR you wont be totally blind like some people in this thread are making out, but it likely wont be the easy mode it is now.


Yes, in an ideal world CCP will remove local in all of k-space and add different intel tools at the same time, but instead they'll completely botch the latter or say "yeah expect it Soon™" and nullsec will be a desert with nary a tumbleweed because either some genius will decide that cloaks will completely trump it or it won't ship for 3 years. That, or it will work not much unlike local does now and the same people will continue complaining.


Yeah no, actually CCP are pretty clear that any change in the way local works has to be preceeded by a working alternative that isn't powered by tendons that are white-hot with RSI induced agony. That's the main hold up.

Dear lord, maybe rational heads have prevailed after all.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#140 - 2013-12-07 15:09:26 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
...Yeah no, actually CCP are pretty clear that any change in the way local works has to be preceeded by a working alternative that isn't powered by tendons that are white-hot with RSI induced agony. That's the main hold up.

Pfft, the main holdup is as always the lack of rational thinking individuals, balls, willingness to sacrifice/bleed/sweat and office politics.
All three of my suggestions from page six (p6) ticks all the relevant boxes, can be combined and took a grand total of twenty minutes to come up with, majority of which was spent making the thoughts intelligible to a reader.

Then you have the reluctance to dig into the legacy code dating back to the time when Eve was spawned as they are afraid to cause a fail-cascade .. good to be cautious but surely there must be ways around such things or we'd have been playing an 8-bit game.
They are facing the same with regard to POS, old code they and most of us are not really fond of but yanking it ...

CCP ought to put a few man-years into wrecking a development server install and get rid of all the apparently poorly documented legacy code once and for all so forward (bolded because it is currently an illusion consisting of band-aids upon band-aids) movement in Eve can be a made a reality rather than merely a nerdgasm.



And there's universal consensus that your vision is the correct one, is there?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016