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Why high sec Exploration rewards are that horrible?

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Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#101 - 2013-12-06 16:01:01 UTC
Ptraci wrote:

. You, on the other hand, what's your experience with nullsec? Which alliances have you been in, which regions have you lived in, etc?


Dunno about him, but my experiences are Fountain, Curse, Outer Ring, GW, and WH space.

I've been allied with FA, Black Sun, and INDY, and been loosely affiliated with past war efforts by quite a few alliances either by contract or being commissioned by member corps I had history with to assist in some capacity. These include IRON, Foundation, Red, MC, and goonswarm.

My claim to nullsec fame is being the bright bulb who suggested to FA that they put nothing but guns and corp hangers on POS (at the time, POS had their guns inside the shield), creating the first of the 'Death Star' POS setups. At the time anti-POS strategy was to blockade the system until the POS ran out of fuel. This allowed them to put months of fuel in the POS, and proved so successful that CCP introduced dreadnoughts.

Personally I don't really have a preference and run between all areas on a regular basis. This is why I find the nullsec assertions that highsec is risk free and they're taking horrible risks when they undock in their covert ops cloaked, warp scram immune T3s and go ratting hilarious.

Eram Fidard wrote:

I undock in hi-sec to run a mission. Whatever 'risk' there is of other players interfering is entirely decided by me. Don't want to get ganked? Don't fit pimp. Don't want to be ninja'd? Don't shoot back. Don't want to be war-dec'd? Hop corp.).


And pretend hard that suicides with hauler alts don't exist. Your 'advice' here is absolutely worthless in highsec. If someone if going to **** with you, they're going to **** with you

Eram Fidard wrote:
I have ratted in the same vindicator for two years through my good planning and decision making, not the crutch of hisec mechanics. Or the magical 'safety field' that you think nullsec power blocs present.


The only 'crutch' I depend on is called Covert Ops Cloak. It's equally effective in nullsec as it is in high sec. And I use it in both places.

Eram Fidard wrote:
A good pilot will make the escape, a good pilot will make the tackle. If both pilots are good then things get interesting.


While I find the idea that nullsec alliances have thus far only sent 'bad' pilots after my ass (with the exception of BoB) and only 'good' pilots to cover it appealing, I highly doubt it.

Eram Fidard wrote:
I don't think it's any coincidence that 10 minutes after posting this I was faced with the risk/reward decision "do I warp off with this neutral in local who wasn't reported in intel" I chose to leave my 10mil worth of drones behind, and it turned out to be the right decision, since he was in a crow. When would that ever happen in hisec?


Doesn't. Because local is chock full of neutrals and you don't know they're hostile until they're already on your ass unless you have them id'd already..
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#102 - 2013-12-06 16:02:48 UTC
Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:

the hacking mini game is nice but truly only way to fail it is on purpose, then some cans sprays around and if you had cargo scanner before you at least knows what and try to get first but well...

.....

so why exploration rewards on high sec so bad ?


add here big BALLOONS "SOMETHING IS HERE" pointing you to site in current system....

I think it's obvious: risk(effort)/reward.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Felo Maxun
Felmax Trade Inc
#103 - 2013-12-06 16:18:50 UTC
IF its the old risk vs reward argument, then increase the risk of some highsec sites, add level 4 equivalent sites that drop better loot. Just cause its in high sec dosnt mean it should be easy, it means the difficulties should be different, trading pvp for pve
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#104 - 2013-12-06 18:23:15 UTC
Felo Maxun wrote:
IF its the old risk vs reward argument, then increase the risk of some highsec sites, add level 4 equivalent sites that drop better loot. Just cause its in high sec dosnt mean it should be easy, it means the difficulties should be different, trading pvp for pve



Because according to the pro nullsec side, there is no risk to anything but other players and that PvP magically does not happen in high sec.
Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#105 - 2013-12-06 18:58:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Eram Fidard
So you choose to pimp fit your ship and get ganked? Don't pimp your ship.

Take the risk of getting suicided, reap the rewards of missioning in a pimp ship. Working as intended. Still doesn't change the fact that a t2 fit is 100% safe from gankers. There is still reward for t2 fitting where is the risk?

No, you can't 'add risk' by introducing AI that will be reduced to a series of blitzing instructions within a day of being on sisi.

The only risks one takes in hisec are voluntary and 100% avoidable. Without exception.

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.
Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#106 - 2013-12-06 19:01:55 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:


Because according to the pro nullsec side, there is no risk to anything but other players and that PvP magically does not happen in high sec.


Name one isk fountain in hisec that cannot be accessed with zero risk. Just one, I dare you.

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.
Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#107 - 2013-12-06 19:32:22 UTC
Last one I promise.

"Local chock full of neutrals"

They can't shoot you.

Wtf are you smoking?

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.
Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#108 - 2013-12-06 19:33:29 UTC
Eram Fidard wrote:
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:


Because according to the pro nullsec side, there is no risk to anything but other players and that PvP magically does not happen in high sec.


Name one isk fountain in hisec that cannot be accessed with zero risk. Just one, I dare you.


So I lied in the last post but I'm still waiting....

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#109 - 2013-12-06 19:49:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Felo Maxun wrote:
IF its the old risk vs reward argument, then increase the risk of some highsec sites, add level 4 equivalent sites that drop better loot. Just cause its in high sec dosnt mean it should be easy, it means the difficulties should be different, trading pvp for pve



Because according to the pro nullsec side, there is no risk to anything but other players and that PvP magically does not happen in high sec.


In the context of exploration, they would be right. Aside from other players, there is no risk in hisec. In low/null explo, there is a varying amount of risk from the environment itself, which can be 100% reliably mitigated through proper planning, preparation, or skill. And they're also right that in the context of highsec exploration, non-consensual PVP does not exist. The only risks worth mentioning are from other players, and only then when outside of hisec.

Also no one rats or does nullsec DED's in cloaky nullified stabbed t3's.

In other words, this
Eram Fidard wrote:
The only risks one takes in hisec are voluntary and 100% avoidable. Without exception.

Except additionally, none of these voluntary risks are required to actually do hisec exploration with maximum efficiency.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#110 - 2013-12-06 21:30:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Cygnet Lythanea
Eram Fidard wrote:

The only risks one takes in hisec are voluntary and 100% avoidable. Without exception.


And being 100% avoidable is different from low and nullsec.... How?

Or are the many, many rants about T3s and covert ops cloak making those things optional EVERYWHERE just my imagination?

Batelle wrote:

Also no one rats or does nullsec DED's in cloaky nullified stabbed t3's.


Of *course* not,...
Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#111 - 2013-12-06 22:54:34 UTC
Avoid an inty landing on you in 5 seconds when your align time is 8.

I could go on, but I already have, and you clearly didn't bother trying to understand that either so I will stop here, at the apparent hard limit of hisec dweller reasoning.

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.
Lailyana Enaka
State War Academy
Caldari State
#112 - 2013-12-07 00:35:23 UTC
Just thought id throw this out there, im more afraid of losing my astero in high sec than i am in null sec whilst exploring. also you should try wormholes and null sec, there is nothing more exhilierating than watching battleships warp in on you while youre trying to hack and just barely getting out with your ship.

"Here's to the crazy ones. The Misfits, The rebels. The Troublemakers. The round pegs in the square holes. 
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#113 - 2013-12-07 00:50:06 UTC
Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:
as I'm less then a year in eve I try new activities from time to time. at any rate tried some exploration lately and it's lots of fun.. roaming around the universe and finding stuf etc...

but... High sec exploration is plain bad.. just horrible reward wise.

First we got anomalies which are around L1 mission without stnadings or LP.

then we got combat sites which are about L2 or something like that without LP or standings.

both of those are pretty annoying as the drops sucks big time best thing I got was 10 mil laser turret and that's about it.

I was very excited when I got my first data and archaeology sites but god they are bad....
the hacking mini game is nice but truly only way to fail it is on purpose, then some cans sprays around and if you had cargo scanner before you at least knows what and try to get first but well... each one of those netted me less then 300 k :X

even while I was mining in 1.0 with venture and 24 h mining skills I made more isk then that and without the hassle of scanning, also while on belts mining I get officer rat once in a while which sometimes drops implants and other goodies worth 100s of millions all while having fun pooling rocks easily.
Security and other missions are easy enough on high sec and you get LP + Standings which both are rewards in their own.
Trading will net a lot lot lot more then exploration.

so why exploration rewards on high sec so bad ? I mean I do mining get my plex and some goodies then do my exploration roaming just for the experience but rewards sucks.



Long ago, when exploration changed in 2009, highsec exploration still stank, but there were the Phi outposts, and life was good anyway.

Then came some bot-killing by CCP, driving tengues into highsec, who would farm the Phi outpost in 1 minute.

Then some changes were made. I don't know.

Did you know you should not be exploring strictly in highsec?


Let me guess, someone told you that you have to join a huge alliance and move out to nullsec or else you will die in 2 minutes out there.

Hogwash.

Use wormholes to get to deep null. Find an empty system or a system inhabited by people in a different TZ. Profit. I spent years doing this and coming back after a few months with a hold full of loot.

And I seldom use a gate or a station.

Yeah, easy travel? Forget it. Station hugging? You have a spaceship with an infinite power supply and a huge space out there. Who is making you live in what, one cluster of systems?

So what if you can't go to Jita to sell your loot in the same day.


Yeah there's a sandbox, but you still have to think outside of it.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#114 - 2013-12-07 00:52:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Cygnet Lythanea
Eram Fidard wrote:
Avoid an inty landing on you in 5 seconds when your align time is 8.

I could go on, but I already have, and you clearly didn't bother trying to understand that either so I will stop here, at the apparent hard limit of hisec dweller reasoning.



Hmm... let me try something... I see an unknown in system and reach ALL THE WAY OVER to my covert ops cloak hotkey, and push it. Then align to a safe spot (you may have heard of these) and warp to it. While cloaked. Makes it hard for the infy to 'land on you' unless you have some astonishingly bad luck. Because it's gonna take him a second to scan down either your ship or the site you're in.

Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
[
Let me guess, someone told you that you have to join a huge alliance and move out to nullsec or else you will die in 2 minutes out there.

Hogwash.


It's a myth the nullbears like to spread because it makes htem feel like badasses. In reality null is no more or less dangerous or 'risky' than Highsec.
Nalelmir Ahashion
Industrial Management and Engineering
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#115 - 2013-12-07 01:02:30 UTC
@Cygnet Lythanea and others... I have no doubt exploration in low and null should be an interesting experiance I was just practicing the scanning and other techniques of the trade while training the skills in high sec until I will be able to get proper ship \ skills\ experience.
Celia Therone
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#116 - 2013-12-07 02:10:09 UTC
Archaeology sites in high sec have essentially no progression. It's conceivable that you might not be able to scan down the very hardest to scan sites with truly lousy skills but I think that training time measured in days, if not hours, should fix that. As far as I have seen they also have no worthwhile loot, you'd literally be better off running level 1 missions or the noob intro missions again. It is conceivable that there might be a very low chance for a faction pos bpc drop, but I haven't witnessed it myself.

Hacking sites are the same as archaeology progression wise however their base loot (decryptors used in invention) is slightly better. However in the exploration re-vamp in Odyssey CCP screwed up the drop rates, as well as making the sites easier to find which has resulted in the value of the loot tanking on the market. You're probably looking at level 2/level 3 mission equivalent return. Which isn't terrible for a real noob but is pretty bad for anyone older than a couple of weeks.

Mining sites. Oh well, they made these anomalies so they aren't even exploration any more. No progression whatsoever.

Gas mining sites. No progression, generally pretty worthless unless you can make the boosters yourself (which you can't in high sec.)

Unknown combat sites. These have some progression, generally up to about level 3 mission equivalent. They tend to be sparse, you may have more luck finding them in pockets of high sec isolated by low sec unless other explorers are farming there already. Loot wise these vary from not very interesting to a billion isk/site if you roll the jackpot in drops. Sometimes you have to kill structures or specific rats to get the drops and as the drops are random you may be unlucky and get almost nothing, just some low value overseer's effects. 4/10 sites may be challenging to a newer player in a cruiser, they might not have the dps to break the serpentis phi overseer for example. Note that drone unknowns are pretty much worthless as they supply parts for the terrible augmented drones that no-one uses.

Expeditions vary wildly in difficulty from roughly level 1 difficulty up to beyond level 4 and come randomly from completing unknown, non-dead, combat sites. There's at least one death room that will kill you unless you read up on it ahead of time and several rooms that are quite dangerous to newer players with webs, warp disruptors and significant DPS to deal with. Rewards are highly random and the escalations are quite sparse so you can spend a lot of time for derisory rewards if you're unlucky. The last stage of an escalation will be in low sec if it runs that far, many will arbitrarily stop part way though due to random number generator. Even if you clear the low sec mission the majority of the time you will get nothing of value, but sometimes you can get a great drop or a quick succession of mediocre drops that adds up to something nice.

Ghost sites - not really exploration. I haven't done enough to be able to give good feedback. They seem lucrative for the time invested at the moment but I think that in the short-medium term the very small demand for the implants will be met and they will become pretty worthless.
Garresh
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#117 - 2013-12-07 08:08:53 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:
so why exploration rewards on high sec so bad ? I mean I do mining get my plex and some goodies then do my exploration roaming just for the experience but rewards sucks.

Risk vs. reward.


Level 4s

This Space Intentionally Left Blank
Bobby Frutt
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#118 - 2013-12-07 10:02:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Bobby Frutt
The issue with exploration is not rewards. I don't buy it. I can make as much soloing exploration sites as I can soloing an L4. It's a lot of (time) risk vs reward. You can walk away with more than you'd have made in L4s at that time, or walk away with less.

Compared to mining I agree you'll almost always make less. DItto with L4s. They need to do something about high-sec mining clearly.

The issue is that exploration is not exploration. I'm not saying the activities are bad anything, although some might argue they are. I'm saying there is no actual exploration. We are space technicians. We are space hackers. We are space fighters. We are not explorers. There is no unknown to discover. It's all discovered for us now. Until that changes, this should not be called exploration anymore. Call it grinding anomalies because that's all it is now. I'll touch more on this in a different topic as to not strain this one with another subject matter.
Dasola
New Edens Freeports
#119 - 2013-12-07 10:04:00 UTC
Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:
as I'm less then a year in eve I try new activities from time to time. at any rate tried some exploration lately and it's lots of fun.. roaming around the universe and finding stuf etc...

but... High sec exploration is plain bad.. just horrible reward wise.

First we got anomalies which are around L1 mission without stnadings or LP.

then we got combat sites which are about L2 or something like that without LP or standings.

both of those are pretty annoying as the drops sucks big time best thing I got was 10 mil laser turret and that's about it.

I was very excited when I got my first data and archaeology sites but god they are bad....
the hacking mini game is nice but truly only way to fail it is on purpose, then some cans sprays around and if you had cargo scanner before you at least knows what and try to get first but well... each one of those netted me less then 300 k :X

even while I was mining in 1.0 with venture and 24 h mining skills I made more isk then that and without the hassle of scanning, also while on belts mining I get officer rat once in a while which sometimes drops implants and other goodies worth 100s of millions all while having fun pooling rocks easily.
Security and other missions are easy enough on high sec and you get LP + Standings which both are rewards in their own.
Trading will net a lot lot lot more then exploration.

so why exploration rewards on high sec so bad ? I mean I do mining get my plex and some goodies then do my exploration roaming just for the experience but rewards sucks.


Thats how CCP tryes to encourage you to go in lowsec/nullsec

We are Minmatar, Our ship are made of scraps, but look what our scraps can do...
Eso Es
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#120 - 2013-12-07 15:26:52 UTC
RAW23 wrote:
Most people in this thread are just lazily repeating tired platitudes and not replying to the actual question.

The question is not 'why are high-sec exploration rewards low in comparison to low and null sec' but 'why are high-sec exploration rewards low in comparison to other high-sec activities'.

Banging the risk/reward drum doesn't answer this one (although a few of the replies have been more enlightening).


This is an excellent point, a lot of it has to do with market saturation. Soo many people are out exploring, so the market is getting flooded with all of the relic/data site loot, lowering the price. I remember I actually used to make decent money doing c2 data sites (pre Odessy), but now i dont even touch the cans in a c3, the price has absolutely tanked on anything you could get out of them.

The solution for our OP? Take more risks and go to null/low for exploration, or find a different profession :P