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Deception
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Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#1 - 2011-09-10 00:48:01 UTC
"It is important to keep in mind that CSM meeting minutes are not released unless both CCP and the CSM give their approval. This is a mandate that I have set as the CSM Project Manager and I stand by it even if it means delays like this one." - From CCP Xhagen's devblog, here!

I don't have time for social niceties so here it is frankly and succinctly. Editing the minutes as such is lying. Forcing the people who represent me to keep information from me is deceptive. Such actions will push people like me away from CCP and their products.

**** the minutes, give us word for word transcripts plus any charts, graphs, reports, et al that may have been used during the summit (and all past and future summits.)

**** the NDA.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2 - 2011-09-10 00:49:47 UTC
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

EVERYBODY KNOWS
Morganta
The Greater Goon
#3 - 2011-09-10 00:51:03 UTC
Simetraz wrote:
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2011-09-10 00:51:46 UTC
Ssssh everyone -- it's nap-time.
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#5 - 2011-09-10 00:55:28 UTC
Pay attention, asshats. That the CSM has agreed to stand behind the NDA shows that they are not on our side. Sleep through that if you want, but then you'll be to blame just as much as CCP.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#6 - 2011-09-10 00:56:30 UTC
Simetraz wrote:
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Jr Instructorcon
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#7 - 2011-09-10 01:00:32 UTC
Mechael wrote:
That the CSM has agreed to stand behind the NDA shows that they are not on our side.


What is this I don't eve- ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Princess Cellestia
Friendship is Podding
#8 - 2011-09-10 01:05:48 UTC
Mechael wrote:
Pay attention, asshats. That the CSM has agreed to stand behind the NDA shows that they are not on our side. Sleep through that if you want, but then you'll be to blame just as much as CCP.



Yes, because they don't want to get sued into oblivion they're not on our side. Uhuh. You are an idiot of the worst kind. Good lord man.
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#9 - 2011-09-10 01:09:57 UTC
Princess Cellestia wrote:
Mechael wrote:
Pay attention, asshats. That the CSM has agreed to stand behind the NDA shows that they are not on our side. Sleep through that if you want, but then you'll be to blame just as much as CCP.



Yes, because they don't want to get sued into oblivion they're not on our side. Uhuh. You are an idiot of the worst kind. Good lord man.


If they didn't want to be sued then they shouldn't have agreed to it in the first place. The NDA is by its very nature against the purpose of the CSM.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
Alina Wize
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#10 - 2011-09-10 01:23:09 UTC
Morganta wrote:
Simetraz wrote:
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Mystic5hadow
Koku Uchu Industries
#11 - 2011-09-10 01:30:27 UTC
Mechael wrote:
Pay attention, asshats. That the CSM has agreed to stand behind the NDA shows that they are not on our side. Sleep through that if you want, but then you'll be to blame just as much as CCP.

Or, you know, it could also be the legal consequences that would follow should they break the NDA that keeps them quiet. Remember, they sign the NDA's BEFORE being told anything, not AFTER, thus they can't just say "Nah, I won't sign." then tell us all what they know.

If they break the NDA, there will be legal consequences, especially if them breaking the NDA results in something negative towards CCP and/or EVE Online or anything else related to CCP. Which is definitely NOT worth getting in trouble for over a friggin' VIDEO GAME.

If you can't understand that, or don't accept it, you're an idiot and you're taking EVE far too seriously.
NJEchoAlpha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2011-09-10 01:33:02 UTC
Oh god its this threeezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2011-09-10 01:34:27 UTC
I do have to agree that editing the minutes is deceptive and the vast majority of CCP's part reads like spin. Also, minutes should be far, far more detailed than those were.
Tengger
Doomheim
#14 - 2011-09-10 01:38:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Tengger
Quote:
I don't have time for social niceties so here it is frankly and succinctly. Editing the minutes as such is lying. Forcing the people who represent me to keep information from me is deceptive. Such actions will push people like me away from CCP and their products.


False. Meeting minutes are always edited/modified etc. It's a standard process.

Read : source: WIKI: Minutes

Quote:
If the members of the committee or group then agree that the written minutes reflect what happened at the meeting, then they are approved, and the fact of their approval is recorded in the minutes of the current meeting. If there are significant errors or omissions then the minutes will be redrafted and submitted again at a later date. Minor changes may be made immediately, and the amended minutes may be approved "as amended". It is normally appropriate to send a draft copy of the minutes to all the members in advance of the meeting so that the meeting is not delayed by a reading of the draft.



Quote:
That the CSM has agreed to stand behind the NDA shows that they are not on our side. Sleep through that if you want, but then you'll be to blame just as much as CCP.


An NDA ensures that topics in confidence are kept in confidence. It allows frank and open discussion without placing commercial-in-confidence in the public domain.

Read : source: WIKI: NDA's

Quote:
A non-disclosure agreement (NDA), also known as a confidentiality agreement (CA), confidential disclosure agreement (CDA), proprietary information agreement (PIA), or secrecy agreement, is a legal contract between at least two parties that outlines confidential material, knowledge, or information that the parties wish to share with one another for certain purposes, but wish to restrict access to by third parties.



Again. Standard.

Quote:
Such actions will push people like me away from CCP and their products.

I hope so.

wtf you lookin' at? waddya expect, me naked in ascii?
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#15 - 2011-09-10 01:50:44 UTC
Mechael wrote:
Pay attention, asshats. That the CSM has agreed to stand behind the NDA shows that they are not on our side. Sleep through that if you want, but then you'll be to blame just as much as CCP.


you're a dumbass. give my all your stuff, then biomass

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#16 - 2011-09-10 01:50:50 UTC
Mystic5hadow wrote:
Mechael wrote:
Pay attention, asshats. That the CSM has agreed to stand behind the NDA shows that they are not on our side. Sleep through that if you want, but then you'll be to blame just as much as CCP.

Or, you know, it could also be the legal consequences that would follow should they break the NDA that keeps them quiet. Remember, they sign the NDA's BEFORE being told anything, not AFTER, thus they can't just say "Nah, I won't sign." then tell us all what they know.

If they break the NDA, there will be legal consequences, especially if them breaking the NDA results in something negative towards CCP and/or EVE Online or anything else related to CCP. Which is definitely NOT worth getting in trouble for over a friggin' VIDEO GAME.

If you can't understand that, or don't accept it, you're an idiot and you're taking EVE far too seriously.


They shouldn't have agreed to it in the first place, starting with CSM 1. Thankfully at least some of the current candidates are quite wily and are doing their best to work around having their hands tied. However, this does not excuse deception. Regardless of whether we're talking about video games, real life politics, war, or ponies, I can't call people who keep the truth from me my allies. This post is aimed more towards CCP, although the CSM are partly to blame as well.

This also goes for what you were saying, Tengger. Standard procedures are inadequate here.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
Mystic5hadow
Koku Uchu Industries
#17 - 2011-09-10 02:01:41 UTC
If they didn't agree to an NDA, then they wouldn't be told anything and the CSM would be more useless than it practically is already or it wouldn't exist at all. No company is going to divulge any kind of information not available to the public to people who aren't their own employees without an NDA. So it was either that or nothing.

Also, CCP isn't an "ally" and they never will be. They're simply a company trying to do what's best for them financially while attempting to keep from angering their current customers, but they're not going to cater just to the loudest bunch. Sure, they make mistakes, but everybody does.

So many people are taking all of this stuff too seriously, I'm starting to worry for their mental health.

In the end, EVE is just a game. CCP is just a company. If you don't like what they're doing, you vote with your wallet and stop giving them your money. That's it.
Tengger
Doomheim
#18 - 2011-09-10 02:02:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Tengger
Quote:
This also goes for what you were saying, Tengger. Standard procedures are inadequate here.

So your argument is with? I'll spell it out again. This is a standard process.

Quote:
They shouldn't have agreed to it in the first place, starting with CSM 1.

It would actually reduce the effectiveness of CSM/CCP relationship. If either party could not speak freely and frankly without threat of public disclosure, nothing will get said or accomplished.

Quote:
Thankfully at least some of the current candidates are quite wily and are doing their best to work around having their hands tied.

The CSM is a committee. No one person/s should act unilaterally to breach protocols or bring discredit to the committee they represent. This includes the Mittani.

Quote:
However, this does not excuse deception. Regardless of whether we're talking about video games, real life politics, war, or ponies, I can't call people who keep the truth from me my allies. This post is aimed more towards CCP, although the CSM are partly to blame as well.

It's not deception editing and then approving minutes. I'll spell it out again. This is a standard process.

As I have seen countless times in the flames thrown at both CCP (and it seems, the CSM), most of it comes from ignorance of how things are actually done. If you want to change the game, add something worthwhile.

Changing the world is not done here.

wtf you lookin' at? waddya expect, me naked in ascii?
Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2011-09-10 02:10:55 UTC
Alina Wize wrote:
Morganta wrote:
Simetraz wrote:
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz



Australian Fanfest Event https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=90062
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#20 - 2011-09-10 02:20:36 UTC
Tengger wrote:
So your argument is with? I'll spell it out again. This is a standard process.


My argument is against the standard process. It has no place here.

Tengger wrote:
It would actually reduce the effectiveness of CSM/CCP relationship. If either party could not speak freely and frankly without threat of public disclosure, nothing will get said or accomplished.


Public exposure is exactly what needs to happen here. No ifs, ands, or buts.

Tengger wrote:
The CSM is a committee. No one person/s should act unilaterally to breach protocols or bring discredit to the committee they represent. This includes the Mittani.


I agree, except when protocols get in the way of helping people you care about. Even in video games. Is it not more important to be honest and helpful with the people that you represent than it is to follow the rules? My gut says it is, though like most questions there are many ways to answer, each with merit from certain perspectives. That said, remember, I mostly agree with your statement here.

Tengger wrote:
It's not deception editing and then approving minutes. I'll spell it out again. This is a standard process.


Then standard process is something other than the unedited truth when the unedited truth is exactly what we all (including CCP) need to be aware.

Tengger wrote:
As I have seen countless times in the flames thrown at both CCP (and it seems, the CSM), most of it comes from ignorance of how things are actually done. If you want to change the game, add something worthwhile.

Changing the world is not done here.


I don't care about changing the world. I just want honesty. If I have to change the world to get it, then something is very wrong and change would have to start somewhere. Why not with us?

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
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