These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Kenshi Hanshin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#2761 - 2013-12-06 06:57:44 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Kenshi Hanshin wrote:
I had to reload the damn things almost ten times to kill the fing repair station.

No one (well, no one but all of us) stopped to think about the NPC repair that would happen in the 40-second reload interval. Gee, how could we possibly have foreseen this... Roll

Don't tempt me...

I am going to put my skilling times into something that will actually get me some efficient results. What I would do if I had the money to buy all the stockholders of CCP out... (FIrst thing would be to reduce CCP 40sec and CCP Idiot {Fozzie} paycheck).
Vincintius Agrippa
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#2762 - 2013-12-06 06:58:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincintius Agrippa
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Vincintius Agrippa wrote:
Shield ships cant seem to tank as much as armor, add to that the sig penatly that blooms your ship so that everyone does perfect damge to you.

Yes, my EVE kingdom for an armor-based Caldari missile ship...


Armor based caldari missile ship? I was just stating that shield cruisers cant tank as much as armor ones. A problem with caldari cruisers which generally means a standard tank with sub-par dps with prop and no point --or-- sub-par dps + sub-par tank with point and propmod.
Only YOU can prevent internet bullying!
Kenshi Hanshin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#2763 - 2013-12-06 07:03:18 UTC
Vincintius Agrippa wrote:
Armor based caldari missile ship?

Something unclear?

It is simple, I am saying that the RIse's and Fozzie's pay needs to be reduced or ammended. I am getting fed up with his delusional and ridiculous ideas. That would be dismissed if he actually spent a minute to analyze the idea within the context of eve's mechanics.
Vincintius Agrippa
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#2764 - 2013-12-06 07:07:08 UTC
oh, sorry, I thought you were being sarcastic :D
Only YOU can prevent internet bullying!
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2765 - 2013-12-06 07:31:16 UTC
Vincintius Agrippa wrote:
Armor based caldari missile ship? I was just stating that shield cruisers cant tank as much as armor ones. A problem with caldari cruisers which generally means a standard tank with sub-par dps with prop and no point --or-- sub-par dps + sub-par tank with point and propmod.

Yeah, imagine a Cerebus with 6 low slots. Twisted

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2766 - 2013-12-06 09:32:10 UTC
Kenshi Hanshin wrote:
Gorski Car wrote:
Tried the new rlmls. All I have 2 say is top lel way 2 ruin a weapon system ccp.

I finaly got around to testing the Caracel and RLML in a lvl3 mission in Emperor Station, Amarr. Let me sum it up for you. This mission shouldn't have taken me more than 10-20 minutes.

I spent the last 45 minutes doing it. I had to reload the damn things almost ten times to kill the fing repair station. Then reload again while tanking the Merc wave to fire back. In total, I spent over half of it loading the damn things. Congrats, I have determined that the only acceptable use for these things is to reprocess them.

Caracal is now a piece of **** in every respect. Good thing I have good Amarr, WINMATAR and Gallente ship skills.

CCP Rise and Fozzie, I am sending you coal for christmas. I am never ever going to trust one damn thing you say about balancing again. Seriously, you need to be fired or retasked.

*Estimate of time was off: closer to an hour.

Footnote: You ****** over Caldari pilots with the drake, HML last year now this half-assed idea with RLMLs & RHMLs. You have not addressed any of the underlying issues with missile mechanics. We as players have told you more times than I can count both in this thread, HML (Odyssey) and CML (Retribution). I can do your job better than you and your team. Hell, if I could I would be stripping you and your team of your salaries till you do your job with quality and professionalism. Which I have yet to see or evaluate acceptable performance in either criteria. You would be fired, lose your PE liscence and be a homeless bum in the woods if you were in my career field: with the ethic and professionalism you displayed.



When you write Winmatar after the last 1 and half year nerfs of minamtar ships and CLEAR new dominance of gallente ships you make yourself way more low on credit than any rapid missile lanucher idea might .

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#2767 - 2013-12-06 12:00:10 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:


It seems clear that RLML and RHMLs are destined to be niche weapons that only serve to further blobs. Why we would want to encourage this at the expense of solo PvP is beyond me.
That sadly is a pretty easy question to answer.

Blob warfare (although generally bloody terrible for those involved due to TIDI) is just so good for advertising.

2 huge fleets numbering over 4000 met in TIDI-DIE. These massive fleets were using the newly released RLML & RHML on Cruisers and Battleships. The fight was one to behold and if you signup for a 30 day trial today you can soon be a part of this new and exciting game, EVE TIDI DIE, a 1 hour battle will last 4 hours due to the TIDI (how's that for value for money, pay for 1 hour get 3 for free)
Signup today and we'll throw in a set of RLML or RHML as a bonus.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#2768 - 2013-12-06 14:41:05 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:

I also was not saying we should use heavy missiles, but to show that Heavies are not incapable of killing frigs or smaller targets, just that you need to fit for it. Its aimed at the people that complain that heavies apply for ****, but then don't create fits similar to these (maybe not as extreme because you're looking for cruisers to fight, so you can drop some of the application and add more tank since your targets will be larger.

Pretty much i'm saying, missiles rely more off application then dps, but you have to fit for it to be effective, as I would consider it more as damage over time effect, the damage can't be dodged if in range. So to counter, they updated the RLML to have a break, so the other person fighting (typically a frigate) a chance to survive. Theres a player in the other ship, and they want to have fun too, and not just be steamrolled (unless active tanked) if theres a RLML on field in its older version.


Sorry but even with rigors heavy missiles blow against frigates with afterburners. A Caracal with three rigors and precision heavy missiles deals 25% damage to a Kestrel with an afterburner or around ~63 DPS. With faction ammo that drops to 16.5% or ~47 DPS. That's utter garbage. There is no arguing otherwise.

And keep in mind that's with perfect damage application skills. It gets worse if you don't have those.


But thats what i would expect from an a/b frigate. Its their defense against turrets (transversal and sig tanking) and missiles (sig and speed tanking) on larger vessels.

Heres an idea, how about we buff all missile damage application except lights. Then incorporate bonuses into afterburners to provide additional missile damage reduction. That would effectively make it like a tracking disruptor for missiles that makes sense. Then you have to consider a dual prop, or a/b only for fits to negate missile dps. So if you're fighting someone without an a/b, you get a buff to missile damage. If they have a fit with a/b, you hit like we do now.


An Omen with beam lasers and no damage application rigs or modules generally applies damage much better against a frig with an afterburner, and it's only at the worst possible traversal that the numbers begin to compare, though even then the greater base DPS means you are doing much more damage. And if you add tracking rigs and/or modules? It's truly laughable at that point.


The only thing with turrets is that if you pilot correctly you can cause dps to drop off significantly. To where no dps is applied. So of course turrets are going to be better at applying initially because you can negate all their damage if u know how to fly. Missiles will always hit if youre in range. Think of it more like a damage over time effect. Low but consistent dps. Now I'm not advocating HML, they do need a buff, but they're not completely useless. If you don't want a 40s reload but want to hunt frigs, there are alternatives, just have to sacrifice. Are the above fittings good? Not really, but they are fun to fly and will kill most frigs. They are specialized for the task.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2769 - 2013-12-06 15:37:19 UTC
So medium size missiles are in good shape but somehow people are choosing turrets over missiles now perhaps more than ever? Okay, seems legit.
Elusive Panda
Public Enemies CO
The Initiative.
#2770 - 2013-12-06 17:04:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Elusive Panda
nvm, post got lost. No time to write it back.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#2771 - 2013-12-06 17:10:14 UTC
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
So medium size missiles are in good shape but somehow people are choosing turrets over missiles now perhaps more than ever? Okay, seems legit.


I didn't say they were in good shape. They need tweaking. I've mentioned that several times already. But they are affected far more on how you fit than turrets for application. You could easily adjust above fittings to gain more tank and lose application on frigates but still apply respectable dps to cruiser sized targets. If you're wanting an op pwnmobile, thats max tank and gank and no application, then you're going to be disappointed.

Still think most are missing the point, missiles hit everytime, you can only outrun missiles or maybe kill them with SB or use defenders (lol) which no one has really touched on. Those systems could use some tweaking as well. So if you fit for more application, you will always be applying some form of dps. If HML are buffed too much, then they'll swing over into being op again because then you can reduce application rigs and modules and have more tank.

Buff hm dmg and application, introduce module to disrupt missiles would be ideal. I was thinking either incorporate the effect into afterburners or make a new utility high slot that affects explosion raduis/velocity that functions like a SB. Give it a slightly longer cycle time so you can still occasionly get good hits inbetween cycle times of said module. That way missile users aren't completely nuetered if they get into a fight with a ship that has one. We could call it chaff, and maybe even consumes charges? Like 20 charges and then a 10-20 second reload? You load it with scrap metal or some new charge. Functioning similar to defenders but u need only one module. It doesn't kill the missile just lowers application. The high slot then gives the choice of a nuet/nos or missile defense.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2772 - 2013-12-06 17:45:53 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Blob warfare (although generally bloody terrible for those involved due to TIDI) is just so good for advertising.

2 huge fleets numbering over 4000 met in TIDI-DIE. These massive fleets were using the newly released RLML & RHML on Cruisers and Battleships. The fight was one to behold and if you signup for a 30 day trial today you can soon be a part of this new and exciting game, EVE TIDI DIE, a 1 hour battle will last 4 hours due to the TIDI (how's that for value for money, pay for 1 hour get 3 for free)

Yes, because watching paint dry between issuing commands, dying and then waiting an hour to get back into the battle is so exciting...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2773 - 2013-12-06 20:23:11 UTC
I've switched over to HAMs while I train guns. How's everyone else faring?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Kenshi Hanshin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#2774 - 2013-12-06 20:54:19 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Kenshi Hanshin wrote:
Gorski Car wrote:
Tried the new rlmls. All I have 2 say is top lel way 2 ruin a weapon system ccp.

I finaly got around to testing the Caracel and RLML in a lvl3 mission in Emperor Station, Amarr. Let me sum it up for you. This mission shouldn't have taken me more than 10-20 minutes.

I spent the last 45 minutes doing it. I had to reload the damn things almost ten times to kill the fing repair station. Then reload again while tanking the Merc wave to fire back. In total, I spent over half of it loading the damn things. Congrats, I have determined that the only acceptable use for these things is to reprocess them.

Caracal is now a piece of **** in every respect. Good thing I have good Amarr, WINMATAR and Gallente ship skills.

CCP Rise and Fozzie, I am sending you coal for christmas. I am never ever going to trust one damn thing you say about balancing again. Seriously, you need to be fired or retasked.

*Estimate of time was off: closer to an hour.

Footnote: You ****** over Caldari pilots with the drake, HML last year now this half-assed idea with RLMLs & RHMLs. You have not addressed any of the underlying issues with missile mechanics. We as players have told you more times than I can count both in this thread, HML (Odyssey) and CML (Retribution). I can do your job better than you and your team. Hell, if I could I would be stripping you and your team of your salaries till you do your job with quality and professionalism. Which I have yet to see or evaluate acceptable performance in either criteria. You would be fired, lose your PE liscence and be a homeless bum in the woods if you were in my career field: with the ethic and professionalism you displayed.



When you write Winmatar after the last 1 and half year nerfs of minamtar ships and CLEAR new dominance of gallente ships you make yourself way more low on credit than any rapid missile lanucher idea might .

Minmatar ships still have absurd advantages due to their smaller than average sig radius and higher than average speed. I still see more Minmatar ships in red fleets than I do gallente. Thus my statement.

The point is that Minmatar and Gallente ships are the two strongest factions. You really cannot argue against that.
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#2775 - 2013-12-06 20:59:14 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
I've switched over to HAMs while I train guns. How's everyone else faring?


Finishing cruise missiles and switching over to gunnery. As I've shown in this dead thread https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3821584#post3821584

You can switch over to gunnery and including support skills train up a gun type and loose no speed over finishing missile skills past 70% or more percent completed. Missiles are THAT fubar and skill intensive to boot.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2776 - 2013-12-06 21:02:35 UTC
Marcus Walkuris wrote:
You can switch over to gunnery and including support skills train up a gun type and loose no speed over finishing missile skills past 70% or more percent completed. Missiles are THAT fubar and skill intensive to boot.

I noticed that the gunnery stuff seems to train a lot quicker.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Kenshi Hanshin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#2777 - 2013-12-06 21:07:24 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
So medium size missiles are in good shape but somehow people are choosing turrets over missiles now perhaps more than ever? Okay, seems legit.


I didn't say they were in good shape. They need tweaking. I've mentioned that several times already. But they are affected far more on how you fit than turrets for application. You could easily adjust above fittings to gain more tank and lose application on frigates but still apply respectable dps to cruiser sized targets. If you're wanting an op pwnmobile, thats max tank and gank and no application, then you're going to be disappointed.

Still think most are missing the point, missiles hit everytime, you can only outrun missiles or maybe kill them with SB or use defenders (lol) which no one has really touched on. Those systems could use some tweaking as well. So if you fit for more application, you will always be applying some form of dps. If HML are buffed too much, then they'll swing over into being op again because then you can reduce application rigs and modules and have more tank.

Buff hm dmg and application, introduce module to disrupt missiles would be ideal. I was thinking either incorporate the effect into afterburners or make a new utility high slot that affects explosion raduis/velocity that functions like a SB. Give it a slightly longer cycle time so you can still occasionly get good hits inbetween cycle times of said module. That way missile users aren't completely nuetered if they get into a fight with a ship that has one. We could call it chaff, and maybe even consumes charges? Like 20 charges and then a 10-20 second reload? You load it with scrap metal or some new charge. Functioning similar to defenders but u need only one module. It doesn't kill the missile just lowers application. The high slot then gives the choice of a nuet/nos or missile defense.

Sorry for any double post.

It doesn't matter if the missiles hit for 10% or less of their theoretical damage. Weapons are meant to kill with efficiency. So the damage over time analogy you are using is complete horse-****. That works fine with games that are similar to WoW. However, that is not Eve. Furthermore, damage-over-time doesn't make sense from a logical standpoint with the background of Eve.

I will say that I do at least have some liking for your chaff-launcher idea.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2778 - 2013-12-06 21:13:20 UTC
Kenshi Hanshin wrote:
I will say that I do at least have some liking for your chaff-launcher idea.

Only if we get a passive low-slot Ballistic Enhancer...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Kenshi Hanshin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#2779 - 2013-12-06 21:15:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenshi Hanshin
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Kenshi Hanshin wrote:
I will say that I do at least have some liking for your chaff-launcher idea.

Only if we get a passive low-slot Ballistic Enhancer...

That is a must and I agree very strongly!

Arthur Aihaken wrote:
I've switched over to HAMs while I train guns. How's everyone else faring?

I am faring alright since I have decent gunnery and good drone skills. But that doesn't negate the feeling of being punch in the gut and kicked in the mouth... Seriously, this consistent nerfing and bias against Caldari having any parity is getting old really fast. I am actually starting to miss EA devs who don't even try to hide their biased ideas. As you knew exactly what it was you were getting into.

That as an aside: I did some DPS graphs for the Marauders. Since I was bored and what the hell... Summary, in the majority of situations the Vargur outperforms the other three by a significant margin. Kronos is usually second to the Vargur. Then it is the Paladin and finally the Golem.

The only exception to this pattern was when the target was a Typhoon-Class battleship. In the exception from most to least: Golem, Vargur, Kronos & Paladin. Golem is at 574 and Vargur at 518, the difference is 56. That is about the same as a single flight of T1 hobgoblins, not much. However, this good performance is completely eclipsed by the horrible performance in the other tests. That said it is a Cruise missile and supposed to be optimized against Battleship sized targets. Therefore, overall that is probably not horribly unacceptable.

Fittings:
http://imgur.com/NRmx5T3,BoqZytW,JeSWJ1p,W3pVDyM,SBkgm1l,5na1Urr,JcDEVdn,ms2BduR,iY77lOr

http://imgur.com/NRmx5T3,BoqZytW,JeSWJ1p,W3pVDyM,SBkgm1l,5na1Urr,JcDEVdn,ms2BduR,iY77lOr#1

http://imgur.com/NRmx5T3,BoqZytW,JeSWJ1p,W3pVDyM,SBkgm1l,5na1Urr,JcDEVdn,ms2BduR,iY77lOr#2

DPS Graphs:
http://imgur.com/NRmx5T3,BoqZytW,JeSWJ1p,W3pVDyM,SBkgm1l,5na1Urr,JcDEVdn,ms2BduR,iY77lOr#3
http://imgur.com/NRmx5T3,BoqZytW,JeSWJ1p,W3pVDyM,SBkgm1l,5na1Urr,JcDEVdn,ms2BduR,iY77lOr#4
http://imgur.com/NRmx5T3,BoqZytW,JeSWJ1p,W3pVDyM,SBkgm1l,5na1Urr,JcDEVdn,ms2BduR,iY77lOr#5
http://imgur.com/NRmx5T3,BoqZytW,JeSWJ1p,W3pVDyM,SBkgm1l,5na1Urr,JcDEVdn,ms2BduR,iY77lOr#6
http://imgur.com/NRmx5T3,BoqZytW,JeSWJ1p,W3pVDyM,SBkgm1l,5na1Urr,JcDEVdn,ms2BduR,iY77lOr#7
http://imgur.com/NRmx5T3,BoqZytW,JeSWJ1p,W3pVDyM,SBkgm1l,5na1Urr,JcDEVdn,ms2BduR,iY77lOr#8

Enjoy!
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2780 - 2013-12-06 21:21:55 UTC
Between CCP-Rush and CCP-Fizzle, it's been a pretty crappy year for Caldari players.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.