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Question for the Vet's??

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Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2013-12-06 09:47:03 UTC
Dannyboy WP Perfection wrote:
So I posted a few days ago about how great this community is and how helpful everyone had been. And for the most part that is still very true. It was funny though I had a few different players come right out and mail me in game warning me about the amount of trolls this game actually does produce. Well we have now ran into a number of those trolls. But no worries every MMO has them. You know the type, get farmed if they actually try play against other players of Equal or at least close to Skill point amount.

But here is my question, So after a bit of study and doing all i can to learn the game and PvP specifically it seems to me that there really is NO skill involved. It's just who has the most Skill Points (more importantly the RIGHT skills leveled) and who has FIT their ship accordingly. Am I way off base here or is that pretty accurate. It's more knowledge then actual Skill.


Again I'm not trying to call into question any vet's I really would like to know, Gathering Knowledge and being educated on something is a skill in and off itself as well. I just feel Eve is more the preparation up to the fight then the actual fight itself.


D,



Completely wrong. Completely wrong.

Skills comes into play when :

- you are fighting against more ships than your side have.
- Isolating targets in enemy gang
- prioritize targets
- Evaluate if you can or cannot engage with your ship
- Preparing ambushes
-Controlling transversal to maximize your dps whiel tryign to keep it high agaisnt the other targets so they do not hit you as hard.

And as you said, preparation, as in real life preparation is half of the fight.


And knowledge is skill. Eve does nto need reflex, and motor skills, and that is good. Eve require mental skills.


Check videos on youtube as the Eve is Easy series: They show wuite a lot of these concepts and how they manage to win fights that you would not be by flying the dumb way.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2013-12-06 09:47:52 UTC
Harrison Tato wrote:
Crumplecorn wrote:
Harrison Tato wrote:
Even after playing for 4 months my frigate is less agile, does less damage, and can take less punishment than another player in the same ship with a year of game played.
If you wanted to reach parity faster, you could have focused on damage output first and flown close range gank fits. Agility and tank don't matter when you're flying a glass cannon with an optimal range of 2k.

Based on a quick session with EVEMon and an alt the other day, I think you could get very respectable DPS out of a frigate in that time frame.

SP give you flexibility, not necessarily superiority.


Flexibility is Superiority.


Woman would tend to disagree with that statement....

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
tiberiusric
Comply Or Die
Pandemic Horde
#43 - 2013-12-06 09:57:57 UTC
Dannyboy WP Perfection wrote:
So I posted a few days ago about how great this community is and how helpful everyone had been. And for the most part that is still very true. It was funny though I had a few different players come right out and mail me in game warning me about the amount of trolls this game actually does produce. Well we have now ran into a number of those trolls. But no worries every MMO has them. You know the type, get farmed if they actually try play against other players of Equal or at least close to Skill point amount.

But here is my question, So after a bit of study and doing all i can to learn the game and PvP specifically it seems to me that there really is NO skill involved. It's just who has the most Skill Points (more importantly the RIGHT skills leveled) and who has FIT their ship accordingly. Am I way off base here or is that pretty accurate. It's more knowledge then actual Skill.


Again I'm not trying to call into question any vet's I really would like to know, Gathering Knowledge and being educated on something is a skill in and off itself as well. I just feel Eve is more the preparation up to the fight then the actual fight itself.


D,


Surprisingly there is a lot of skill involved. However Skillpoints count for nothing really. A 10 mill SP player can easily kill at 100mill experienced pvper. Its all about whos flying and fitting what at the time of engagement. The problem also i feel with eve is that you can fit any mod to any ship (well mostly any mod). To me, certain mods should be only on speciality ships, if they are not then you should get penalised for using it. for instance ECM ships, i dont think they should get a bonus, rather the ship that isnt specialised should get a penalty. But they dont.

There are so many factors to think about when pvping, speed, distance, what ammo you have, what damage and range is it doing etc. I must admit its alot easier now, because CCP now adds those stats and you can see instantly. A few years ago we never had that, so you just had to 'know'. You need to know the capability of your enemies ship as well. Yo just wont know what they are carrying, unless you have a cargo scanner of course, which 99.9% of the time you dont. Its all a game of probability.

All my views are my own - never be afraid to post with your main, unless you're going to post some dumb shit
Dextrome Thorphan
#44 - 2013-12-06 10:01:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Dextrome Thorphan
Dannyboy WP Perfection wrote:
So I posted a few days ago about how great this community is and how helpful everyone had been. And for the most part that is still very true. It was funny though I had a few different players come right out and mail me in game warning me about the amount of trolls this game actually does produce. Well we have now ran into a number of those trolls. But no worries every MMO has them. You know the type, get farmed if they actually try play against other players of Equal or at least close to Skill point amount.

But here is my question, So after a bit of study and doing all i can to learn the game and PvP specifically it seems to me that there really is NO skill involved. It's just who has the most Skill Points (more importantly the RIGHT skills leveled) and who has FIT their ship accordingly. Am I way off base here or is that pretty accurate. It's more knowledge then actual Skill.


Again I'm not trying to call into question any vet's I really would like to know, Gathering Knowledge and being educated on something is a skill in and off itself as well. I just feel Eve is more the preparation up to the fight then the actual fight itself.


D,


Seems to me you're the one trolling... lol

Anyway, like others have already said, skillpoints do not matter in pvp once you've trained your core ship skills (which doesnt take long at all). It's all about tactics and teamwork. But yeah, it is more about knowledge/experience than it is about skill. It is not a twitch-based game, you knew this when you started playing lol
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#45 - 2013-12-06 10:04:36 UTC
tiberiusric wrote:
for instance ECM ships, i dont think they should get a bonus, rather the ship that isnt specialised should get a penalty. But they dont.
Doing this would have the same effect as reducing the base ECM effectiveness. (Not so) stealth whine detected.

Witty Image - Stream

Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment
Yarda Black
The Black Redemption
#46 - 2013-12-06 10:12:21 UTC
Every mechanic in EVE is tied together. The more you know, the better you get at selecting targets (and the mechanics they're experiencing the moment you engage), the better your chances of winning will be.

Example: Im in an Arazu and an interceptor jumps through. Do I decloak and engage?
No I do not. If he's alone, he will be in warp by the time I can lock or even point. If a miracle occurs and I can lock him; hell burn off and go his merry way. If he's not alone...

Example 2: Im in a rapier and an interceptor jumps through. Do I decloak and engage?
You figure this one out.

In the end noting can and ever will stop others from "going safe" and simply instapopping you with a massive overkill in weaponry. It happens. And then some more. It still invlolves skill. Just not yours.

The bigger the fight, the more skills move from player to FC. At that point, his/her skill will mostly determine if you get a fight or just die in a ball of fire.
If you understand the situation you're in, you will be able to anticipate an order and be that 1 second faster.

As said; EVE is as much of a chessgame as it is a spaceship-game. Learn the pieces and win.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2013-12-06 10:21:50 UTC
Dannyboy WP Perfection wrote:
So I posted a few days ago about how great this community is and how helpful everyone had been. And for the most part that is still very true. It was funny though I had a few different players come right out and mail me in game warning me about the amount of trolls this game actually does produce. Well we have now ran into a number of those trolls. But no worries every MMO has them. You know the type, get farmed if they actually try play against other players of Equal or at least close to Skill point amount.

But here is my question, So after a bit of study and doing all i can to learn the game and PvP specifically it seems to me that there really is NO skill involved. It's just who has the most Skill Points (more importantly the RIGHT skills leveled) and who has FIT their ship accordingly. Am I way off base here or is that pretty accurate. It's more knowledge then actual Skill.


Again I'm not trying to call into question any vet's I really would like to know, Gathering Knowledge and being educated on something is a skill in and off itself as well. I just feel Eve is more the preparation up to the fight then the actual fight itself.


D,


First of all, I'm not a vet. That's just a little disclaimer for you, but here's what I know in any case.

SP, in the grands scheme of things, means very little on its own. A new player who buys a 130mil SP toon on the char bazaar and dives into the game knowing very little about it is going to lose to my 30mil SP toon simply because I know my ships, I know my fits, and I have put the time spent training that toon into learning the game, its explicit mechanics and implicit nuances.

There's another limiting factor, and that's the skills themselves. If you have 130mil SP, you might only have ~10-20 million of those devoted to a particular ship or ship type, and its fitting, in which case, the other ~110-120 mil become irrelevant in regards to that ship or ship type in a PVP situation.

Skill points, character age - the myth that these things, amongst other, give a player an advantage is spawned by the parallels EVE's progression system draws with other MMOs, but those parallels are cosmetic only, and when you look deeper beneath the surface, there are more complexities to be seen and considered.

tl;dr - SP != XP.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Linna Baresi
#48 - 2013-12-06 10:26:12 UTC
Mistake nr.1: You're posting in the GENERAL forum. For new player questions, you're way better off in Eve New Citizens Q&A at https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=topics&f=257

Mistake nr.2: You really need to read up. As the posters above already told you, there's a lot more to PVP than SP/implants/fittings alone. But even if that were all there is to it, the knowledge to USE those SP/implants/fittings is a skill in itself.

Since I'm pretty damn new myself, and still learning the ropes, I've been gathering some links to sites with useful information. I have no illusions that it's anywhere near complete, but check it out, might contain some stuff you can use:
http://fated.europefreeforum.com/pvp-pve-combat-basics-t1603.html

Get EVEMon, if you don't have it already, so you can plan your skills ( http://evemon.battleclinic.com/ )
EFT ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=24359 ) can help you decide which ship fit best suits your skills.
And then there's Google... plenty of example fits out there that you can try out in EFT.

Member of since 2003 fated.europefreeforum.com
Bloody Slave
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2013-12-06 10:42:32 UTC
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
You're in a Firetail fitted with autocannons. A Hawk is landing on grid with you. Do you fight, or run away? If you stay, how do you fight? Do you maintain high transversal? Should you activate your MWD or not. What ammo is he going to be using; did you plug that resist hole? What ammo should you use against a Hawk, and did you bring any of it? Is he going to be shield or armor tanked? You have less than 10s to answer these questions, while also clicking dscan to see who else is coming.*

Thats just the start of the fight. And that's just a 1v1 manly fight. You'll have just as many if not more questions that need answering every few seconds into the fight. If you're in a fleet, then the questions that need answering are magnified. If you are the FC, then those questions will come at you faster and the answers may mean victory or a whelp of your fleet.

Being able to answer those questions correctly and fast is far more important than your SP.

*(full disclosure, I didn't answer those questions fast enough and some of my answers were wrong. The Hawk won).


LOL, man, I couldn't resume it better than that.

I would only add that FC is the key to win and if you are solo or with your own Alts you are the FC already. Blink

If your balls are hurt and bleeding don't sit in a pool full of piranhas (note to myself: don't complain in GD)
Keno Skir
#50 - 2013-12-06 12:19:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Keno Skir
Experienced players often roll new alts just to beat up on players with more SP than them. Game knowledge trumps SP 9 times out of 10. If it doesnt feel that way, it's likely because you are waiting for your SP to make you viable. Try to ignore SP as much as possible and work on gaining tactical knowledge, it will serve you better than skillpoints.

EDIT : Agreed, check out the "Eve Is Easy" video series on Youtube. Easily some of the best PvP videos i'v seen.

Black Lanterns Blog <- Read my ramblings -.-

250,000 Bonus SP when you start an Alpha Clone HERE <---
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#51 - 2013-12-06 12:26:30 UTC
Dannyboy WP Perfection wrote:
Well we have now ran into a number of those trolls. But no worries every MMO has them. You know the type, get farmed if they actually try play against other players of Equal or at least close to Skill point amount.


Hypocrisy

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#52 - 2013-12-06 12:28:35 UTC
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
You're in a Firetail fitted with autocannons. A Hawk is landing on grid with you. Do you fight, or run away? If you stay, how do you fight? Do you maintain high transversal? Should you activate your MWD or not. What ammo is he going to be using; did you plug that resist hole? What ammo should you use against a Hawk, and did you bring any of it? Is he going to be shield or armor tanked? You have less than 10s to answer these questions, while also clicking dscan to see who else is coming.*

Thats just the start of the fight. And that's just a 1v1 manly fight. You'll have just as many if not more questions that need answering every few seconds into the fight. If you're in a fleet, then the questions that need answering are magnified. If you are the FC, then those questions will come at you faster and the answers may mean victory or a whelp of your fleet.

Being able to answer those questions correctly and fast is far more important than your SP.

*(full disclosure, I didn't answer those questions fast enough and some of my answers were wrong. The Hawk won).




you missed "what range is the cutoff between disadvantage for him and advantage for me and thus where i want to fight this engagement."
also is he running or trying a sling shot?
Mainly people that blame losses on their opponents SP or something their foe did will say their is little skill.
People that blame their losses on something they did will usually end up more skillful.

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#53 - 2013-12-06 16:38:38 UTC
Fix Lag wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

This game does not actually produce trolls. The trolls come down from the Ettenmoors to play Eve. Trolls usually don't come down from so far unless there are darker powers afoot.


Tell us more about your theories on personal defense against trolls and other undesirables.



If I recall correctly you need a +2 or better weapon to do lasting damage and they regenerate HP fast but I lost that D&D box set I had back in 1981 and have not played AD&D since the Gary Gygax days before Forgotten Realms.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#54 - 2013-12-06 16:50:27 UTC
Dannyboy WP Perfection wrote:

But here is my question, So after a bit of study and doing all i can to learn the game and PvP specifically it seems to me that there really is NO skill involved. It's just who has the most Skill Points (more importantly the RIGHT skills leveled) and who has FIT their ship accordingly. Am I way off base here or is that pretty accurate. It's more knowledge then actual Skill.


lol, well, I can see how you might think that if you only consider what happens when two ships are slugging it out within brawling distance. But even in that situation there is room for a skilled player to give himself an additional edge.

But you're pretty much completely wrong.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
SKINE DMZ
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2013-12-06 16:51:43 UTC
Dannyboy WP Perfection wrote:
So would you say my understanding of EvE's PvP is correct then.

Knowledge Trumps all, while SP and fittings help. There really is no real SKILL involved in the PvP encounter. It has been decided before it even began, due to the right fittings and the RIGHT skills put in.


Keep in mind im talking very small scale PvP 1v1 to 5v5 type of fights. Not your 4k mass battles.



D,


I would say incorrect Smile I've noticed as I have gotten a little better at handling myself in a situation that skill definitely plays part, and skill points a lot less. I was flying a comet the other day and saw a frigate sitting in a plex, young character, thought he would have no chance but turns out he could easily kite me (speed control, very important) and started slowly chipping away at my ship while I could just not get close enough to do anything. However I was able to break point and escape with a combination of confusing the pilot and a bit of manual flying. That was the first time I ever tried to escape (normally there is not a lot of time to think about getting out in frigate fights) and I was shocked by him controlling me so easily, as well as being shocked because I realised I knew how to escape from this, nothing that happened was down to skill points.

I disagree
Lipbite
Express Hauler
#56 - 2013-12-06 18:10:44 UTC
EVE players traditionally confuse experience/knowledge (i.e. good memory) for a skill. The only thing which require some kind of mouse-clicking skill in EVE is catching loot mini-game in data/relic sites. And maybe MWD+cloak jump trick.
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#57 - 2013-12-06 18:25:01 UTC
Any game that doesn't involve aiming a crosshair with your mouse is always subject to people saying it doesn't take any skill.

The fact of the matter is the skill comes in the knowledge of game mechanics, quick decision making and not making mistakes. Same as WoW, Starcraft and League of Legends.

Go watch some videos in the My Eve forums of PvP'ers and then make your assumptions.

Not today spaghetti.
Notorious Fellon
#58 - 2013-12-06 18:30:29 UTC
Skill Points are important enough that without them you wont make much ISK. Unless you pay real cash for that on top of your subscription.

The more you stay focused, the better you will be at all things eve in the early days. In a couple weeks you can have a ball in FW or PVP in frigates/destroyers. But you wont make jack for isk. From 1 to 5 million SP (wild numbers here) you will drastically improve your isk-making ability.

More SP beyond 20 million just makes you more diverse.

Crime, it is not a "career", it is a lifestyle.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#59 - 2013-12-06 18:35:54 UTC
Assigning drones to the FC is the basis of ccurrent elite pvp

see: archons, dominixes, ishtars, prophecies

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#60 - 2013-12-06 18:36:25 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Dannyboy WP Perfection wrote:
So I posted a few days ago about how great this community is and how helpful everyone had been. And for the most part that is still very true. It was funny though I had a few different players come right out and mail me in game warning me about the amount of trolls this game actually does produce. Well we have now ran into a number of those trolls. But no worries every MMO has them. You know the type, get farmed if they actually try play against other players of Equal or at least close to Skill point amount.

But here is my question, So after a bit of study and doing all i can to learn the game and PvP specifically it seems to me that there really is NO skill involved. It's just who has the most Skill Points (more importantly the RIGHT skills leveled) and who has FIT their ship accordingly. Am I way off base here or is that pretty accurate. It's more knowledge then actual Skill.


Again I'm not trying to call into question any vet's I really would like to know, Gathering Knowledge and being educated on something is a skill in and off itself as well. I just feel Eve is more the preparation up to the fight then the actual fight itself.


D,

SP isn't important in the grand scheme of things, friends, knowledge of what your ship is capable of and game mechanics are much more useful. More SP generally means one thing, it hurts more financially when you lose.

Case in point Goons, almost universally maligned, started out using a zerg rush of low SP characters and cheap ships in a war of attrition against a far more established enemy (ie pretty everybody in nullsec) to get to where they are now, BNI are following in their footsteps.

I disagree. SP are just as important as any other piece of the puzzle. SP can be overcome through prep, planning and better piloting.

As a new player you are most likely still auto piloting your ship....as in approach orbit keep at range etc .


With practice you can overcome the SP deficit by manual piloting of your ship by kitting, sling shooting etc knowing what ranges to maintain and how to keep that range manually.

I would recommend a new player friendly corp. like RvB or similar. They help you learn the nuances of pvp while you learn to fly.

Most people make the mistake that there is no skill. While this can be somewhat true but only to a point the majority of fights are determined before you undock through preparation and the other is pilot error.