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A Thought of Warpcore-stabilizers and Balance
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Kane Fenris
NWP
#1 - 2013-12-06 15:28:08 UTC
Hi,

an initial plea :
Please think about this before you post on this because im going to propose something that might be for the good of th game bot not to the good of every individual.

Most of EVE's Balance evolves around Risk/Reward, and currently there's an imbalance in some parts of the game based on synergies and game mechanics caused by stabs.

there is no to nearly no risk involved in following activities:
- doing FW sites in stabed frigates
- doing exploration(data/relic) sites in stabed frigtes
- Traveling null sec in stabed interceptors

while i'm aware stabs are vital to some parts of the game and have quite huge drawbacks this is not true to the activities mentioned above.

so heres my proposal:
deny Frigates to fit warpcore stabs.

before you start telling me this would nerf this and that to badly just consider you still can run all above activities nearly as safe but you'll have to actually pay attention and thing about what your doing.

for example:
you still can do fw sites safe and warp of if someone enters you just cant go safely on desktop.
or you'll have to watch d-scann while doing your site
Pure Ebil
The Ebil Empire
#2 - 2013-12-06 15:42:55 UTC
Deny frigates use of them & they will simply warp-stab destroyers…

Or use ventures with their hull bonus to it & can be used to do relic/data sites given the right fit.

As for stabbed interceptors, they will just use inertial stabs & warp before all but the most insta-locking of camps can catch them.

(I strongly suspect in null most of them don't even get locked before warping so the stabs aren't really doing much)

As for killing stabbed ships, it's easy, I've flown a coercer in FW & got kills in it despite it lacking any tackle (you don't need to point them if you can put down enough DPS to kill them before they can react)
Notorious Fellon
#3 - 2013-12-06 15:46:26 UTC
There is a price to be paid for using warp core stabs. Loss of damage, or tank for starters. Slots aren't free.

Crime, it is not a "career", it is a lifestyle.
Kane Fenris
NWP
#4 - 2013-12-06 15:49:42 UTC
you're right about the most stuff and i cant make out if you support my idea or oppose it cause ost of your arguments illstrate that it woul not be a huge nerf.

im going with you oppose my idea and add the following to my initial post as response:

ventures have warpstrength but no bonuses to either virus str nor scanning so there your trade of for your warp strength

ceptors usually do not get locked but if the pilot lets itself get locked he should get punnished

stabbed destroyers cant enter all sites

and warping faster through low mods does not protect you if you do not pay attention while stabs do

so here are my counter arguments
Kane Fenris
NWP
#5 - 2013-12-06 15:53:10 UTC
Notorious Fellon wrote:
There is a price to be paid for using warp core stabs. Loss of damage, or tank for starters. Slots aren't free.


what price is paid ? haveing to lock longer on the npc in fw?
(i assume you dont know lots of players farm fw sites half afk cause they just need to pay attention to the lock sounds and i they hear one warp off)

the imbalance is created cause the activities you can do with the stabs in frigs warp stabs have no drawback at all.
Paul Panala
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6 - 2013-12-06 16:05:37 UTC
Another idea...put two scrams on your hunting ship. As it was pointed out, the ship running a stab (probably two stabs) is taking a major fitting sacrifice. If you want to catch said ship, you should have to make some sacrifices too. That is how I see it at least.
Pure Ebil
The Ebil Empire
#7 - 2013-12-06 16:14:43 UTC
Kane Fenris wrote:
you're right about the most stuff and i cant make out if you support my idea or oppose it cause ost of your arguments illstrate that it woul not be a huge nerf.

im going with you oppose my idea and add the following to my initial post as response:

ventures have warpstrength but no bonuses to either virus str nor scanning so there your trade of for your warp strength

ceptors usually do not get locked but if the pilot lets itself get locked he should get punnished

stabbed destroyers cant enter all sites

and warping faster through low mods does not protect you if you do not pay attention while stabs do

so here are my counter arguments


I agree with the problem but not the implementation of the solution,

Agreed, I think that's a fair price to pay on the venture.

True, but the stabbed frigs will go for the larger sites first anyway.

I totally agree, if you don't pay attention you should be relieved of your ship.

My thought is perhaps a heavy agility penalty would be a better one, as then afk people would be unable to get out in said frigs before you've torn through them. It would also make travel in stabbed ones in null more risky as it would take longer to get out (more time to receive damage). & a similar effect on those running relic/data sites.
Kane Fenris
NWP
#8 - 2013-12-06 16:15:49 UTC
Paul Panala wrote:
Another idea...put two scrams on your hunting ship. As it was pointed out, the ship running a stab (probably two stabs) is taking a major fitting sacrifice. If you want to catch said ship, you should have to make some sacrifices too. That is how I see it at least.


so people should have to make a big sacrfice just to be able to maybe kill people running pvp content afk and loosing to everyone in a serious non afk fit?

no thanks thats not balanced.

there is no part in the game where it would be vital to have a stab to accomplish the job you want to do given your willing to actually focus on the game.
Kane Fenris
NWP
#9 - 2013-12-06 16:21:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Kane Fenris
Pure Ebil wrote:

My thought is perhaps a heavy agility penalty would be a better one, as then afk people would be unable to get out in said frigs before you've torn through them. It would also make travel in stabbed ones in null more risky as it would take longer to get out (more time to receive damage). & a similar effect on those running relic/data sites.


while i like the idea there is some stuff not solved by it.
and others created.

for example:
you could stay aligned at 75% speed in fw sites still completely safe

you would give bigger ships the same penalty and imho on every ship bigger than frigates warp core stabs are working quite well (destroyers ma be point of debate)
Pure Ebil
The Ebil Empire
#10 - 2013-12-06 16:54:43 UTC
Kane Fenris wrote:
Pure Ebil wrote:

My thought is perhaps a heavy agility penalty would be a better one, as then afk people would be unable to get out in said frigs before you've torn through them. It would also make travel in stabbed ones in null more risky as it would take longer to get out (more time to receive damage). & a similar effect on those running relic/data sites.


while i like the idea there is some stuff not solved by it.
and others created.

for example:
you could stay aligned at 75% speed in fw sites still completely safe

you would give bigger ships the same penalty and imho on every ship bigger than frigates warp core stabs are working quite well (destroyers ma be point of debate)



You would be safe, but you would burn out of the range before too long & would need to constantly manually realign to another celestial on the other side to avoid this, if there is one located in the right place.

True, but I'm sure there's a way to work it where the higher the inertial modifier the greater the effect, it might mean that in order to get a battleship into warp inside a short time with one of these you'd have to cycle an AB or MWD if you stack too many warp core stabs on, but that'd be a fair tradeoff. It would certainly discourage warp stabbed smartbombing battleships in low/null.
Paranoid Loyd
#11 - 2013-12-06 17:04:28 UTC
You're targeting a niche group of people who want to avoid a fight, why should you not have to have a niche fit to catch them?

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Kane Fenris
NWP
#12 - 2013-12-06 17:10:10 UTC
Pure Ebil wrote:

True, but I'm sure there's a way to work it where the higher the inertial modifier the greater the effect, it might mean that in order to get a battleship into warp inside a short time with one of these you'd have to cycle an AB or MWD if you stack too many warp core stabs on, but that'd be a fair tradeoff. It would certainly discourage warp stabbed smartbombing battleships in low/null.


this might work
still there are 2 more things that would trouble me
im pretty sure it wold be very hard to find balanced values
it would be a very special kind of mechanism to fix a simple problem
(what excatly is it that you want to preserve by allowing frigs warpcore stabs? my solution would just be simpler fix?)
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#13 - 2013-12-06 17:11:47 UTC
Kane Fenris wrote:
Paul Panala wrote:
Another idea...put two scrams on your hunting ship. As it was pointed out, the ship running a stab (probably two stabs) is taking a major fitting sacrifice. If you want to catch said ship, you should have to make some sacrifices too. That is how I see it at least.


so people should have to make a big sacrfice just to be able to maybe kill people running pvp content afk and loosing to everyone in a serious non afk fit?

no thanks thats not balanced.

there is no part in the game where it would be vital to have a stab to accomplish the job you want to do given your willing to actually focus on the game.


No sacrifice needed. Most farmers are completely **** fit, if they're fit at all, and their stabs don't save them from a ship with even one scram. Go in with guns preheated, and burn right up to them. You'll almost always catch the AFK/tabbed out ones, as they don't run away because you don't start locking until you're right on top of them. By then, it's too late. You just burn them down to a wreck before they can warp.
Kane Fenris
NWP
#14 - 2013-12-06 17:15:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Kane Fenris
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
You're targeting a niche group of people who want to avoid a fight, why should you not have to have a niche fit to catch them?


firsty its not niche
50% or more of those who farm fw sites fly fully stabbed
(peope posting her i don ot fly stabe wont disprove this ...)
and lots of people doing sites fly also stabed else 2x scramed stealth bombers wouldn't have been invented.

secondly yu have no way f knowing what your opponent will have in fw sites so it would be a complete gamble.
if you hunt for peope you normaly have some indicators of what your encountering (for example what they are trying to do) in this case you have absolutely no indication if you should have 2x scrams or not.


Domanique Altares wrote:

No sacrifice needed. Most farmers are completely **** fit, if they're fit at all, and their stabs don't save them from a ship with even one scram. Go in with guns preheated, and burn right up to them. You'll almost always catch the AFK/tabbed out ones, as they don't run away because you don't start locking until you're right on top of them. By then, it's too late. You just burn them down to a wreck before they can warp.


most farmers have 3 stabs so they are immune to faction scram

and your tactic only works if you 100% know if hes an afk player else you will loose the catch by not locking asap
Pure Ebil
The Ebil Empire
#15 - 2013-12-06 17:15:22 UTC
Kane Fenris wrote:

this might work
still there are 2 more things that would trouble me
im pretty sure it wold be very hard to find balanced values
it would be a very special kind of mechanism to fix a simple problem
(what excatly is it that you want to preserve by allowing frigs warpcore stabs? my solution would just be simpler fix?)



If something is worth doing then it's worth doing right, simply banning them from frigs is an inelegant solution.
True, but I don't want to stop frigs using warp core stabs, just make it more interesting on both sides.
You might not be able to take out all of them but you would kill some before they got out & would be laughing when you saw the stabs & pleased you'd killed him in time. Likewise if they get out alive, with more damage taken than before, then they will have had fun waiting to see if they would escape or not.

FUN, that's what I want to preserve, simply banning them off smaller hulls removes the chance to catch them & the rewarding feeling from doing so.
Kane Fenris
NWP
#16 - 2013-12-06 17:26:01 UTC
Pure Ebil wrote:

If something is worth doing then it's worth doing right, simply banning them from frigs is an inelegant solution.
True, but I don't want to stop frigs using warp core stabs, just make it more interesting on both sides.
You might not be able to take out all of them but you would kill some before they got out & would be laughing when you saw the stabs & pleased you'd killed him in time. Likewise if they get out alive, with more damage taken than before, then they will have had fun waiting to see if they would escape or not.

FUN, that's what I want to preserve, simply banning them off smaller hulls removes the chance to catch them & the rewarding feeling from doing so.


yes youre right its not an elegant solution
but on the other side its simple and fast implemented and doesn't have any implications that are hard to foresee
as i initially stated it would hurt some people but for the over all situation between risk reward it would be a good thing

sure this is fun but tbh this only works in very few cases




Paranoid Loyd
#17 - 2013-12-06 17:27:51 UTC
Kane Fenris wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
You're targeting a niche group of people who want to avoid a fight, why should you not have to have a niche fit to catch them?


firsty its not niche
50% or more of those who farm fw sites fly fully stabbed
(peope posting her i don ot fly stabe wont disprove this ...)
and lots of people doing sites fly also stabed else 2x scramed stealth bombers wouldn't have been invented.

secondly yu have no way f knowing what your opponent will have in fw sites so it would be a complete gamble.
if you hunt for peope you normaly have some indicators of what your encountering (for example what they are trying to do) in this case you have absolutely no indication if you should have 2x scrams or not.


I suppose you have documented stats on your 50% claim?

Being able to fit your ship anywhere in space now makes your complete gamble comment irrelevant, if you come across a stabbed frig, go to your yurt and change your fit.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#18 - 2013-12-06 17:31:39 UTC
Kane Fenris wrote:

there is no to nearly no risk involved in following activities:
- doing FW sites in stabed frigates
- doing exploration(data/relic) sites in stabed frigtes
- Traveling null sec in stabed interceptors


I would take issue with the exploration one. I don't see it as a problem. Firstly, a stabbed frigate can very easily be killed before it can warp out, and the loss of agility mods, the cpu usage, and the worse targeting are all issues.

#3 isn't much of an issue. Safe nullsec travel has been around forever (pre-apocrypha imo), and even if you take away stabs from ceptors, you won't really be hurting their survivability much at all.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#19 - 2013-12-06 17:32:37 UTC
Kane Fenris wrote:


and your tactic only works if you 100% know if hes an afk player else you will loose the catch by not locking asap


And if they're stabbed and not AFK, they warp before you can catch them anyway. So what's your point?

You can continue locking early and tipping your hand, since you want to BLOO BLOO BLOO on the forums, or you can adjust your tactics to catch people who are clearly AFK farming.
Kane Fenris
NWP
#20 - 2013-12-06 17:32:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Kane Fenris
Paranoid Loyd wrote:

I suppose you have documented stats on your 50% claim?

Being able to fit your ship anywhere in space now makes your complete gamble comment irrelevant, if you come across a stabbed frig, go to your yurt and change your fit.


so if you're so sure its way less than 50% it should be easy to prove me wrong shouldn't it?

yeah i can refit... only after i know which one i have encountered you need to know before you encounter someone if the trade of you'll have to make is so huge.

Domanique Altares wrote:
Kane Fenris wrote:


and your tactic only works if you 100% know if hes an afk player else you will loose the catch by not locking asap


And if they're stabbed and not AFK, they warp before you can catch them anyway. So what's your point?

You can continue locking early and tipping your hand, since you want to BLOO BLOO BLOO on the forums, or you can adjust your tactics to catch people who are clearly AFK farming.


exactly this is my point!
im absolutely fine with this because the player actually spend his time playing the game.
he should not be able to do something else and escape.

hunting only for people who cant defend themselves is as boring as ganking miners.

Batelle wrote:

#3 isn't much of an issue. Safe nullsec travel has been around forever (pre-apocrypha imo), and even if you take away stabs from ceptors, you won't really be hurting their survivability much at all.


you're right it wouldn't hurt em much but it would remove the ability to not care and still survive

thats the whole point it baffles me that people do not take offense in people doing meaningful stuff without putting any effort in it
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