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Everything [I know] is wrong with Hybrid Turrets - Long - CCP Please Read!

Author
Magosian
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2011-11-08 19:34:07 UTC
Donna Divine wrote:
His point seems to be that CCP needs to work according tothe following process:

1. define combat rules
2. define combat roles
3. balance weapons and shisp accordingly.

His argument seems to be that CCP last did serious work on 1 and 2 in 2007-2009, and should really redefine the overall picture on those points before making up their mind about blasters, and especially rails.


Ahhhh!

I'm curious if CCP took that into consideration when the projectile/TE/TC changes went live (1-2 years ago? I don't remember exactly). Based on the lopsided results, I would guess CCP did not.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#62 - 2011-11-08 19:34:52 UTC
Magosian wrote:
Donna Divine wrote:
His point seems to be that CCP needs to work according tothe following process:

1. define combat rules
2. define combat roles
3. balance weapons and shisp accordingly.

His argument seems to be that CCP last did serious work on 1 and 2 in 2007-2009, and should really redefine the overall picture on those points before making up their mind about blasters, and especially rails.


Ahhhh!

I'm curious if CCP took that into consideration when the projectile/TE/TC changes went live (1-2 years ago? I don't remember exactly). Based on the lopsided results, I would guess CCP did not.

I think they did , but they are minmatar fanboys so they made them op.
Zachis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#63 - 2011-11-08 19:52:07 UTC
They haven't used that process in a long time.

Wondering if they could make sensor dampeners effective for blaster boats, like they used to be. At least that was one design that fit with the Gallente combat philosophy. Force your enemy to come to your range, or limit their ability to damage you as you close on them.
Donna Divine
Gilded Goose Brokerage
#64 - 2011-11-08 20:08:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Donna Divine
Yes, indeed you need to first design your intended overall goal before balancing every part of it.
Damps are a good example of a way too strengthen the Gallente role without needing to overpower their primary weapons.

I forgot to add, i agree entirely with noisrevbus. His contribution is actually very well thought out, and right on the mark, if not right to the point.
Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#65 - 2011-11-08 20:47:01 UTC
Noisrevbus wrote:
rebalance Blaster and Rails to excel in the full extent of what the current mechanics define as short (~0-10km) and long (~100-150km) range - they do not need vast improvement in volumous figures.


I've been saying this all along aswell, hopefully CCP realizes it too before it's too late.
Monger Man
D.S.A.
#66 - 2011-11-08 20:51:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Monger Man
noisrevbus post is interesting. And probably the most spot on.

And it got me thinking quite a bit.

Especially about ewar and the effects it has on Gallente hulls.

I'm especially thinking neuts, those seem to hurt me the most.

Damps right now a pretty pointless. What if they changed them to not effect
targeting (Caldari already have that), instead either effect the falloff/optimal of
other ewar effects (neuts, nos, td, painters, ecm, ect..) or increase there cycle times.

The area that my be to powerfull would be scram, jam, web.

This way you have a tool to keep those effects off you while you close, or keep range.

Edit.

I still think its an interesting idea for damps. But anybody can fit a damp.
So it probably wouldn't help blaster boats that much.
Tac Mannall
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2011-11-08 21:15:35 UTC
I think Noisrevbus hit on the problem exactly. It's a well thought out assesment and it takes in to account the entirety of the game mechanics and content rather than weapon and ship systems. Moreover, it just feel more solid and right rather than the arguments to straight buff certain aspects of hybrids or ships.
It's definetly something that CCP should consider.


Zachis wrote:
They haven't used that process in a long time.

Wondering if they could make sensor dampeners effective for blaster boats, like they used to be. At least that was one design that fit with the Gallente combat philosophy. Force your enemy to come to your range, or limit their ability to damage you as you close on them.


Personaly I love Damps, I've been drawn to them since I started and they're great at dictating engagement range. The only problem is that even on a bonused ship you need at least three to get an opponent's targetting distance down into web and scram range. Unfortunately, nearly all Gallente ships don't have that many mid slots to dedicate to them and still have the neccessary prop and tackle mods as well. Those that do, the Arazu, Lachesis and Keres use them very well but it doesn't help the general ship pool and their combat ability otherwise is rather weak by comparison.
Uppsy Daisy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#68 - 2011-11-08 23:18:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Uppsy Daisy
This is a good thread in my opinion, and CCP would do well to read it.

In case none of you have seen it, the best comments from CCP on this are here in the Talos feedback thread:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=321989#post321989

Also there have been further buffs, but they are pretty small:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=29692&find=unread
Magosian
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2011-11-09 01:42:02 UTC
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
This is a good thread in my opinion, and CCP would do well to read it.

In case none of you have seen it, the best comments from CCP on this are here in the Talos feedback thread:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=321989#post321989

Also there have been further buffs, but they are pretty small:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=29692&find=unread



Yup, I've also begun diverting my attention to the Test Server Feedback section. I've also made an attempt to draw some attention here. I don't want to come off as a spammer so I neglected to report all of this. Hopefully this will get more visibility. Thanks for sharing. Big smile
Sanguine Belroth
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2011-11-15 03:49:58 UTC
Previously I mentioned Enyo can kill a Dramiel.
And quite rudely my loss of an Enyo vs Dramiel was posted back at me :P I would like to point out he had a optimal tracking disrupter script - more power to him.

If you are l33t though, it can be done.
http://www.rifterdrifter.com/2011/06/the-little-enyo-that-could/
Twice, in quick succession!

I don't want to see a game in which everything is the same. Its rock paper scissors. Something fit one way, will kill something fit another.

I re-iterate my congratulations to CCP on their well thought out, not major or drastic changes. And ignore the whiners. This is the internet, and you cannot, willnot, ever, possibly, even remotely get close, to pleasing everyone.

Although you can **** off most everyone (remember a couple months ago). Stay the course CCP!!!!
vorneus
Hub2
#71 - 2011-11-15 18:13:36 UTC  |  Edited by: vorneus
Niko Takahashi wrote:
Sir you are the king of overly Long posts.

That is almost in the annual report of all things hybrid class.

I did manage to force my self to read about half of it.

I still am pissed they did not boost the speed of Caldari boats as well.
It is totally stupid all Caldari ships will be so slow now it is not funny.


Rokh with 2 speed Mods is still slower then a buffer tanked rigged Megathron even with the current stats let alone the buffed ones.

Fix that FFS




My post is in reply to the thread in general, I quoted the above because I just wanted to make the point that while you're partially correct, the rohk has an optimal range bonus and the ability to use cruises/torps, and thus has a much better damage projection than a mega. A mega also has little choice but to armor tank which reduces it's speed, whereas a rohk shield tanks. In other words, it should be faster. Also, I can't check right now but I find the stat of a rohk with 2 speed mods being slower than a plated and trimarked mega very hard to believe.

But anyway, regarding the topic itself. It's well thought out and, while not as concise and well structured as everyone here might like (I did read it all, btw) it makes some very valid points.

I however agree for the most part with a few of the other respondents who state that CCP have made a good amount of changes, and are looking to see how they pan out before making too hasty a large buff that everyone subsequently whines to have nerfed again.

I'd be happy if the current changes went live, then a few months later they were reviewed, feedback collected, and looked at again. In my opinion, small modifications followed by extensive testing is the best way to achieve a balanced outcome for this kind of thing, as nobody with the best will (or intellect) in the world can precisely state exactly what will fix the problem for everyone, taking everything into consideration. Anyone who claims to have done this is just arrogant and/or small minded.

All people can do is state what they think is wrong, and some possible amends to try (small modifications with testing, anyone?) as the creator of this topic has (mostly) done.

Thumbs up for a good discussion. Great initial post and interesting replies.

-Ed

This one time, I like, totally did some stuff.

Pinaculus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2011-11-21 19:40:39 UTC
A slight tweak to Sensor Damps would remove the need to tweak blasters any further. I would increase their individual effectiveness, but also increase their stacking penalty and change their ewar ship bonuses a bit.

It doesn't matter if you have short range weapons if you can force your enemy to come to you (unless he just leaves).

I know sometimes it's difficult to realize just how much you spend on incidental things each month or year, but seriously, EVE is very cheap entertainment compared to most things... If you are a smoker, smoke one less pack a week and pay for EVE, with money left over to pick up a cheap bundle of flowers for the EVE widow upstairs.