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The great missile debate

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Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#81 - 2013-12-05 22:00:35 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Kitty Bear wrote:
then you factor the turrets ability to miss or crit
Quake M becomes 0, 1519.02 dps
Tremor M becomes 0, 868.02 dps
Please, learn math and the turret hit formula before trying to assess turret damage. *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal


no it's perfectly good math

statistically a turret is equally capable of always missing or hitting with a critical hit
a critical hit is 3x damage
a miss is 0 damage

therefore the possible total range of damage lies between those two extremes

I am not stating that is the damage that is done
I am stating that is the possible range of damage that can be done






of course whenever the turret vs missile debate comes in, turret users ALWAYS want the critical hit values discounted, because it skews their precious misrepresented figures.
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#82 - 2013-12-05 22:09:29 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Kitty Bear wrote:
then you factor the turrets ability to miss or crit
Quake M becomes 0, 1519.02 dps
Tremor M becomes 0, 868.02 dps
Please, learn math and the turret hit formula before trying to assess turret damage.
*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

Ok, so if I understand correctly, to be good, missiles should :
- perfectly hit a interceptor going full speed, or at least do reasonable damage, like 200dps, and without tackle ;
- still hit farther than any LR turret can ;
- have the same dps than SR turrets with short range ammo ;
- don't be limited to any damage type, or it's unfair.

Have I missed something ?

I do believe he is showing the mirror image that is cherry picked math. (As clearly stated in his post). If you've come to bash this thread as well just leave. Please can we have one thread on this topic without spin?
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#83 - 2013-12-05 22:18:27 UTC
Marcus I don't cherry pick specific ammo types, whilst ignoring the others to give my numbers credence

I compared all 4 T1 heavy missiles to all 8 T1 projectile rounds
all I added is what most 'turret posters' deliberately avoid posting
"the effects of a critical hit in the dps figures"

and as I have already stated .. it then turns the turret dps figures into a 'damage range value' as opposed to the static figure generally quoted for them, where due to the lack of critical hits missiles can be accurately represented with a static dps figure


it's not rocket science ffs ... it's basic math
Aivo Dresden
State War Academy
Caldari State
#84 - 2013-12-05 22:21:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Aivo Dresden
To be honest, he has a point. You turret guys always argue guns can miss. You never mention they also get wrecking hits for triple damage. It is fair to take that in to consideration when discussing sustained dps.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#85 - 2013-12-05 22:24:43 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Kitty Bear wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Kitty Bear wrote:
then you factor the turrets ability to miss or crit
Quake M becomes 0, 1519.02 dps
Tremor M becomes 0, 868.02 dps
Please, learn math and the turret hit formula before trying to assess turret damage.
*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal


no it's perfectly good math

statistically a turret is equally capable of always missing or hitting with a critical hit
a critical hit is 3x damage
a miss is 0 damage

therefore the possible total range of damage lies between those two extremes

I am not stating that is the damage that is done
I am stating that is the possible range of damage that can be done

of course whenever the turret vs missile debate comes in, turret users ALWAYS want the critical hit values discounted, because it skews their precious misrepresented figures.

1) take a dictionnary and look at "statisticaly" definition.
2) expend "dps" to full words.
3) link 1 and 2 and think about what you've said.


Now, what missiles user don't understand is that missiles are a reliable weapon system : they never have good stats (except for range) but they never have garbage stats (like turrets can have) for the job they are meant to do.

That mean that for any possible scenario, there is turret better than missiles ; but for any scenario, there is a turret worse than missiles.

That is the price for reliability. If you are good enough that you'll never have to deal with turrets drawback, don't bother with missiles, they are not for you. Missiles are useless to "good enough" people. That is by design. You can't have a balanced missile system better than all turrets in a given situation (except at highest ranges). Missiles things are range and reliability, deal with it.
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#86 - 2013-12-05 22:25:50 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Ok, so if I understand correctly, to be good, missiles should :
- perfectly hit a interceptor going full speed, or at least do reasonable damage, like 200dps, and without tackle

Oh come on, please. Maxed RLML frig-killer Cerberus with Scourge Precision will do 280dps before drones (out of 544 total). No HAM or HM ship can dream of anything even close to 200dps.
Aivo Dresden
State War Academy
Caldari State
#87 - 2013-12-05 22:27:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Aivo Dresden
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
Oh come on, please. Maxed RLML frig-killer Cerberus with Scourge Precision will do 280dps before drones (out of 544 total). No HAM or HM ship can dream of anything even close to 200dps.

I've already put down the math for a Drake shooting at a 5km/s Malediction, You should consider yourself lucky if you're hitting 50 dps.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#88 - 2013-12-05 22:29:51 UTC
Aivo Dresden wrote:
To be honest, he has a point. You turret guys always argue guns can miss. You never mention they also get wrecking hits for triple damage. It is fair to take that in to consideration when discussing sustained dps.

I hate when people don't understand statistics and yet try to argue about turrets...

Please, if you don't understand how turret dps work, don't talk about it. You don't need to be ridiculous.
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#89 - 2013-12-05 22:31:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcus Walkuris
Kitty Bear wrote:
Marcus I don't cherry pick specific ammo types, whilst ignoring the others to give my numbers credence

I compared all 4 T1 heavy missiles to all 8 T1 projectile rounds
all I added is what most 'turret posters' deliberately avoid posting
"the effects of a critical hit in the dps figures"

and as I have already stated .. it then turns the turret dps figures into a 'damage range value' as opposed to the static figure generally quoted for them, where due to the lack of critical hits missiles can be accurately represented with a static dps figure


it's not rocket science ffs ... it's basic math

I never said as much as that. Just going by all crits isn't realistic and far from "average" dps and as such paints a beautiful picture of gunnery that is far outside the realm of likely possibilities. That is my message; "you wanted big numbers, have some numbers". Cherry pick as in show reality favorably to me me me, no reference to you picking the wrong ammo comparison.
Edit: As he was clearly objecting over the maximum possible dps.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#90 - 2013-12-05 22:34:35 UTC
Aivo Dresden wrote:
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
Oh come on, please. Maxed RLML frig-killer Cerberus with Scourge Precision will do 280dps before drones (out of 544 total). No HAM or HM ship can dream of anything even close to 200dps.

I've already put down the math for a Drake shooting at a 5km/s Malediction, You should consider yourself lucky if you're hitting 50 dps.
Oh and I like how missiles users just *have to* shoot *only* at the fastest and nimblest targets in the game whereas this target would just fly strait right into the turret ship and then sit down in its optimal range for him to perfectly apply its dps.

Large and slow ships don't exist in missiles users' world.
Aivo Dresden
State War Academy
Caldari State
#91 - 2013-12-05 22:35:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Aivo Dresden
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
I hate when people don't understand statistics and yet try to argue about turrets...
Please, if you don't understand how turret dps work, don't talk about it. You don't need to be ridiculous.

How is me saying both misses and wrecking hits should be taken in to consideration have anything to do with my knowledge of how turrets work; or even remotely suggest my point is ridiculous. If anything it makes you look ignorant and oblivious yourself.
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Large and slow ships don't exist in missiles users' world.

Thanks for proving my point. This just show you have no idea of the effects of speed and signature radius on the applied damage of heavy missiles being discussed here.
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#92 - 2013-12-05 22:42:18 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

1) take a dictionnary and look at "statisticaly" definition.
2) expend "dps" to full words.
3) link 1 and 2 and think about what you've said.


Now, what missiles user don't understand is that missiles are a reliable weapon system : they never have good stats (except for range) but they never have garbage stats (like turrets can have) for the job they are meant to do.

That mean that for any possible scenario, there is turret better than missiles ; but for any scenario, there is a turret worse than missiles.

That is the price for reliability. If you are good enough that you'll never have to deal with turrets drawback, don't bother with missiles, they are not for you. Missiles are useless to "good enough" people. That is by design. You can't have a balanced missile system better than all turrets in a given situation (except at highest ranges). Missiles things are range and reliability, deal with it.


im not just talking statistics, im talking probabilities as well.
ive tried to keep it nice and simple, so that people with limited understanding such as yourself can follow what im trying to put across, but I just cant display it in a 1+1=2 format.



the dps figures given by [rab see] are based on a turret based weapon hitting for standard 1x damage
because that is how the 3rd party tools display the raw data.
those tools do NOT factor in misses or critical hits, or any of the other hit variables used in eve's damage calculation
so when you triple the theoretical maximum volley damage, you also triple the maximum theoretical dps

as were all quoting theoretical numbers from a 3rd party calculator (eft/pyfa/evehq)
it's equally justifiable to give those theoretical numbers thier maximum values as well
hence I quoted a number range 0, x

im sorry if those possible damage ranges discount your argument regarding the weakness of turrets when compared to missiles
but critical hits change turret performance values significantly.
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#93 - 2013-12-05 22:45:42 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Aivo Dresden wrote:
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
Oh come on, please. Maxed RLML frig-killer Cerberus with Scourge Precision will do 280dps before drones (out of 544 total). No HAM or HM ship can dream of anything even close to 200dps.

I've already put down the math for a Drake shooting at a 5km/s Malediction, You should consider yourself lucky if you're hitting 50 dps.
Oh and I like how missiles users just *have to* shoot *only* at the fastest and nimblest targets in the game whereas this target would just fly strait right into the turret ship and then sit down in its optimal range for him to perfectly apply its dps.

Large and slow ships don't exist in missiles users' world.

Do you see us arguing against turret users? Your stigmatism really just screams raving, not logic. The whole point here is that missile ships are whale hunters,so yes flying missile boats you know plenty about "big and slow". Any more rhetorical questions and statements wrapped in suggestions and questions?
Aivo Dresden
State War Academy
Caldari State
#94 - 2013-12-05 22:46:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Aivo Dresden
Here's a chart that shows damage of all heavy missiles at max skills, with a painter, shooting a completely standard Malediction (33 sig and 435m/s base stats) at all speeds between 0ms - 435 m/s: LINK
That's a maximum of 8 dps per launcher, with all skills at V and a painter ...

For a Maller, we get anything between 22 and 19dps, depending on the missile. With 6 launchers that is an absolute maximum of 132 applied dps , on an untanked Maller, just cruising around. You're right, completely working fine that. Roll

No amount of BCUs, hull bonuses or other mods can compensate for the fact the applied damage of heavy missiles is just way too low to be a viable weapons platform.
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#95 - 2013-12-05 22:59:37 UTC
Aivo Dresden wrote:
Here's a chart that shows damage of all heavy missiles at max skills, with a painter, shooting a completely standard Malediction (33 sig and 435m/s base stats) at all speeds between 0ms - 435 m/s: LINK
That's a maximum of 8 dps per launcher, with all skills at V and a painter ...

For a Maller, we get anything between 22 and 19dps, depending on the missile. With 6 launchers that is an absolute maximum of 132 applied dps , on an untanked Maller, just cruising around. You're right, completely working fine that. Roll

No amount of BCUs, hull bonuses or other mods can compensate for the fact the applied damage of heavy missiles is just way too low to be a viable weapons platform.


Is there a similar browser based calculator for guns? I would love to pair up and compare some guns and missiles in comparable categories.
Aivo Dresden
State War Academy
Caldari State
#96 - 2013-12-05 23:30:56 UTC
Not that I'm aware of, but I'm sure you could run it through EFT or something.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#97 - 2013-12-05 23:36:37 UTC
Marcus Walkuris wrote:
Aivo Dresden wrote:
Here's a chart that shows damage of all heavy missiles at max skills, with a painter, shooting a completely standard Malediction (33 sig and 435m/s base stats) at all speeds between 0ms - 435 m/s: LINK
That's a maximum of 8 dps per launcher, with all skills at V and a painter ...

For a Maller, we get anything between 22 and 19dps, depending on the missile. With 6 launchers that is an absolute maximum of 132 applied dps , on an untanked Maller, just cruising around. You're right, completely working fine that. Roll

No amount of BCUs, hull bonuses or other mods can compensate for the fact the applied damage of heavy missiles is just way too low to be a viable weapons platform.


Is there a similar browser based calculator for guns? I would love to pair up and compare some guns and missiles in comparable categories.


People could make a bunch of ship in EFT but part of the problem is gunnery damage application is linked to player piloting. Being able to keep a good orbit/breaking the target's orbit to help your tracking. VS missile, your orbit can be complete crap all the way to a god damn straight line and you still evade just as much damage. All dps cahrt where a radial velocity will be applied will always be representing a perfect orbiting pilot who never make misstakes and a shooter who can't be arsed to stop being an immobile brick to mess up with the target's orbit. Gunnery dps charts will always be a ballpark figure because how the fight happen has a **** load of consequence on the results. For missile, keep the AB running and don't do sharp turns and he will never get perfect application because you are moving too fast.

They are litterally apples and oranges.
Aivo Dresden
State War Academy
Caldari State
#98 - 2013-12-05 23:57:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Aivo Dresden
Yes of course and I'm not disputing that in any way. The only message I'm conveying is that the applied damage for heavy missiles is a bit crap making its viability in pvp questionable. A slight change in heavy missile damage reduction from signature radius would probably put it on the same level as the other weapon systems.
Gimme more Cynos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#99 - 2013-12-06 00:03:57 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Bouh Revetoile wrote:


Now, what missiles user don't understand is that missiles are a reliable weapon system


until the target accidently activates the afterburner... Pirate

Please, stop the fairytales now. Missiles do have their issues (not as dramatic as some might say)
*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal
Aivo Dresden
State War Academy
Caldari State
#100 - 2013-12-06 00:07:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Aivo Dresden
I agree that rockets and light missiles are in a good place, same for cruise missiles. They are very competitive compared to their turret counterparts. The medium sized launchers however are under performing which is largely caused by the ammo being used in them, hence the discussion about it here. :)