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Proposal: Close the training speed gap beween null and highsec with new boosters
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Aivo Dresden
State War Academy
Caldari State
#41 - 2013-12-05 22:17:48 UTC
So what you're saying is that you can't afford to replace your losses? Then the problem in your case is just that you can't afford to PvP in null. Simple as that. I *KNOW* I can't; so I don't. Hence I joined RvB.

If anything; I could get behind a remove all kinds of attribute changing implants and get rid of that all together. Just like learning skills; I suppose it could be counter productive. I am however not very comfortable with making a change that basically only benefits a certain group of null pilots; who are lets face it; a minority.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#42 - 2013-12-05 22:20:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Domanique Altares wrote:
This idea is ripe to fall prey to an altered version of Malcanis' law. Space rich incomes will determine the market price point of these proposed boosters, and they will end up costing no less (and likely far, far more) in the long run than plugging in a set of the same learning implants. Instead of making the added attributes easier to obtain, they will obsolete them.



this basically.

Looking at the good boosters you already pay fo an edge.


And it would not even be the bitters market pvp'ing. A big part of that be would be the cost of doing business. Drug pos' and the logitsitcs to run them cost isk. Lots of bottlenecks outside their control here so its not the lab owners gouging (too much anyway). Gas is a big bottleneck here for example.

Forget the booster but its gas component only comes from delve iirc. If delve residents collect this gas and say it will cost xyz isk no haggling....well then that drug lab owner pays xyz isk no haggling. Not like he can ask Curse residents for a better deal. They don't have the gas.

Even for the mild gains of the mid grade combat boosters from the labs you pay a pretty isk. Like yousaid to keep the juice flowing you'd probably be better off implanting it. At least +3's.
LtCol Laurentius
The Imperial Sardaukar
#43 - 2013-12-05 22:22:10 UTC
Aivo Dresden wrote:
So what you're saying is that you can't afford to replace your losses? Then the problem in your case is just that you can't afford to PvP in null. Simple as that. I *KNOW* I can't; so I don't. Hence I joined RvB.


Nope, that not what I am saying :) I can, and I have.

Aivo Dresden wrote:
If anything; I could get behind a remove all kinds of attribute changing implants and get rid of that all together. Just like learning skills; I suppose it could be counter productive. I am however not very comfortable with making a change that basically only benefits a certain group of null pilots; who are lets face it; a minority.


It will benefit all those with naked clones and those with clones up to +3. I bet you find plenty of those elsewhere as well, not least among newish players, wormhole players etc.
LtCol Laurentius
The Imperial Sardaukar
#44 - 2013-12-05 22:25:14 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
This idea is ripe to fall prey to an altered version of Malcanis' law. Space rich incomes will determine the market price point of these proposed boosters, and they will end up costing no less (and likely far, far more) in the long run than plugging in a set of the same learning implants. Instead of making the added attributes easier to obtain, they will obsolete them.


this basically.

Looking at the good boosters you already pay fo an edge.


And it would not even be the bitters market pvp'ing. A big part of that be would be the cost of doing business. Drug pos' and the logitsitcs to run them cost isk. Lots of bottlenecks outside their control here so its not the lab owners gouging (too much anyway). Gas is a big bottleneck here for example.

Forget the booster but its gas component only comes from delve iirc. If delve residents collect this gas and say it will cost xyz isk no haggling....well then that drug lab owner pays xyz isk no haggling. Not like he can ask Curse residents for a better deal. They don't have the gas.

Even for the mild gains of the mid grade combat boosters from the labs you pay a pretty isk. Like you to keep the juice flowing you'd probably be better off implanting it. At least +3's.


Well, since these things are actually attribute enhancing cerebral accelerators and not combat boosters, CCP would have a clean slate on the exact game mechanic. You cant just use current booster production and assume the same mechanics, materials and market situation.
Naomi Anthar
#45 - 2013-12-05 22:46:43 UTC
Roime wrote:
People don't play this game to gain SP, they play to have fun


Can't have much fun myself as i'm restricted by SP aka cannot fly MANY SHIPS with 1 year old character. Cannot use many weapon systems etc.

Sure you don't have problem with that old toon as yours. I would see no problem either. Got it ;) ?

Tho i live in low sec ... with implants (not +5 or some hg stuff) - just basic stuff. Shame that i won't go for 5s for example, but i know better that Smartbomb can be at next gate . Saw Santo Trafficante many times where i live(and he owned VERY old players pods , many pods in very short time - when he was around) .That reminds me that it's better to keep cheap implants, that won't hurt my wallet, if i will have to buy new.

Which of course hurts mostly new players (under 2 years i would say) that cannot fly much stuff.

I'm sure in time i will be ok aswell. But right now it's sad to even think about flying without +3.

Now don't get me wrong ! It's not gamebreaking problem. Just like ss penalty in fw plex is stupid , learning implants are stupid aswell. I will live with both of those issues, but it would be better if those problems (yes there is problem) would be resolved.

Sorry Roime, you forgot how it is to be low sp players where every sp counts, as even your core skills are still yet to be trained.
For older characters it's not big pain, hell they can even afford to lose T3's and retrain , because they have nothing cool enough to train anyway. Probably they got all 4 races subcaps trained with T2 guns up to large ones.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#46 - 2013-12-05 23:40:34 UTC
LtCol Laurentius wrote:
[Well, since these things are actually attribute enhancing cerebral accelerators and not combat boosters, CCP would have a clean slate on the exact game mechanic. You cant just use current booster production and assume the same mechanics, materials and market situation.



He has these as consumables, it almost the same mechanics for use. But being nice I will nice I will remove the drug aspect for a sec.

these would not be a base lp item or mission drop. The'y maybe be a FW lp store item. Pirate lp I'd see for sure. Being nice ccp would not put these in plexes and Ca's. Tis is too avoid even high markup on less than good items like say worm bpc's (hope they fix her up at some point but that is another thread).

FW would like the added cash cow. So would NPC 0.0 runnners. While not snake price these won't be cheap low % hardwire price either.

Drugs would be preferrable over either lp option tbh. Drug makers to score gas are very open to finding residents in spaces with the gas they need to give deep discounts on product made. Lose a few million upfront with the gas collector(s) but make it back, in spades, selling to to the rest of thier clients.

I have yet to see this deal with lp items. had friends in FW who had the lp to isk chart they had to follow + whatever costs the store tacked on to get the item. This they would not drop below and I could not blame them lol.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#47 - 2013-12-06 08:27:24 UTC
Naomi Anthar wrote:
Roime wrote:
People don't play this game to gain SP, they play to have fun


Can't have much fun myself as i'm restricted by SP aka cannot fly MANY SHIPS with 1 year old character. Cannot use many weapon systems etc.

Sure you don't have problem with that old toon as yours. I would see no problem either. Got it ;) ?

Tho i live in low sec ... with implants (not +5 or some hg stuff) - just basic stuff. Shame that i won't go for 5s for example, but i know better that Smartbomb can be at next gate . Saw Santo Trafficante many times where i live(and he owned VERY old players pods , many pods in very short time - when he was around) .That reminds me that it's better to keep cheap implants, that won't hurt my wallet, if i will have to buy new.

Which of course hurts mostly new players (under 2 years i would say) that cannot fly much stuff.

I'm sure in time i will be ok aswell. But right now it's sad to even think about flying without +3.

Now don't get me wrong ! It's not gamebreaking problem. Just like ss penalty in fw plex is stupid , learning implants are stupid aswell. I will live with both of those issues, but it would be better if those problems (yes there is problem) would be resolved.

Sorry Roime, you forgot how it is to be low sp players where every sp counts, as even your core skills are still yet to be trained.
For older characters it's not big pain, hell they can even afford to lose T3's and retrain , because they have nothing cool enough to train anyway. Probably they got all 4 races subcaps trained with T2 guns up to large ones.


My training started 12/2010, and I've never had problems with training speed. I don't feel the need to rush into ships, I was as happy in my first Imicus as I was in my first Proteus. I use +4s and Genolutions (+3). I can't use many weapon systems and fly ships almost exclusively from one race, which isn't in any way relevant when discussing "fun".

Success and fun is not dictated by SP, I fly 90% of my time T1 frigates which a <1 year old pilot can fly with exactly as good skills. My Tristan skills haven't improved in two years, but my human piloting skills have. Focus on a small selection of ships and you reach max character skills for those very fast.

Anyway, what would you gain by going for +5s? What would be your net gain on training time vs someone with disposable +4s in say, two years?

Make a skill plan in Evemon and compare +4s and +5s, not forgetting Cybernetics V, and then tell me they are worth all this whining.




.
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#48 - 2013-12-06 08:36:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Maldiro Selkurk
I know CCP often uses risk / benefit analysis in decision making but I'm glad the don't confine their development choices to this concept like it was mandated by God.

I can put insurance on my ship in high sec but I pay just as much for that insurance as you do even though I am MUCH less likely to collect on it then you are in null so there is a serious disconnect between risk and benefit in the area of insurance benefits with game mechanics strongly favoring nullbears.

I have lost two RNI's ,several other combat ships and a transport vessel but I still have never insured a single ship. I'm going to guess that there is a much higher percentage of uninsured ships in high than null.

In EVE some benefits go to you based solely on where you choose to play the game and this is a purposeful choice of CCP's development strategy.

In short, deal with the economic and practical aspects of nullsec life or gtfo and come join us in high sec and plug +5's.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2013-12-06 09:27:40 UTC
Sentient Blade wrote:
Roime wrote:
People don't play this game to gain SP, they play to have fun


Well when the variability and viability of the ships you can fly is measured in skillpoints then they are often one in the same.

CCP says you can specialize to be effective in combat, and it's true, you can... You can be an awesome Rifter pilot and do Rifter things all day long.

Until you get bored and want to try something else. Like a Cruiser, or a battleship. Doctrine ships.

Then you're completely out of luck.



That is irrelevant. THe people that are pvping just bought +2 and went to PVP. And when they know they will take a week off they junp into a +5.

After half a year like this you will have lost what? 1 or 2million SP? and gined what? FUN, and the real game experience.

This is just an excuse for cowardice.

SP ammount if relevant up to the point where you can fly a HAC. After you reach that, stop thinking oN SP and focus on using it.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2013-12-06 09:30:01 UTC
Reminding, In eve there is this concept of RISK and reward. Want to get the MORE SP reward? Take the risk of loosing some money. SIMPLE AS THAT!!

If you want implants to be removed.. what will be next? Ships that blow up resapwn at your station?

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2013-12-06 11:43:23 UTC
Roime wrote:
Anyway, what would you gain by going for +5s? What would be your net gain on training time vs someone with disposable +4s in say, two years?

The difference isn't that big even before you count Cybernetics V in, but I still remember how even +3s wern't exactly disposable for me when I was new.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
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