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The great missile debate

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Aivo Dresden
State War Academy
Caldari State
#61 - 2013-12-05 17:30:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Aivo Dresden
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
not really, missiles are "static" damage. Granted in battle the variables change (transverse, target resistance, sig - boosters, boosts, MWDs) but for the most can be closely calculated. pilot skill does come into account obviously, but much less than people make it out to be since most people are average pilots at best.


Your 440 DPS Drake there does a whooping 25dps attacking a frig orbiting at 400ms. The whole problem with heavy missiles is damage application, which is far from what you make it out to be and the whole reason they are practically useless.

That isn't even a fast frig, If I put down a Malediction going at 5k, you're doing 3 dps. Thorax going 300ms, 140dps. Wooptidoo.
TheMercenaryKing
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#62 - 2013-12-05 17:33:35 UTC
Aivo Dresden wrote:
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
not really, missiles are "static" damage. Granted in battle the variables change (transverse, target resistance, sig - boosters, boosts, MWDs) but for the most can be closely calculated. pilot skill does come into account obviously, but much less than people make it out to be since most people are average pilots at best.


Your 440 DPS Drake there does a whooping 25dps attacking a frig orbiting at 400ms. The whole problem with heavy missiles is damage application, which is far from what you make it out to be.


Again there are many factors, yes, an orbiting frig would take alot less damage, but like any ship, you have some kind of counter or assist such as a TP, Web, or Scram. If you are going into combat improperly, then you do not deserve to do damage. There is a counter to everything in Eve.
Aivo Dresden
State War Academy
Caldari State
#63 - 2013-12-05 17:40:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Aivo Dresden
OK for the sake of argument. Same Thorax, webbed (60%), scramed and painted (+30% sig) ... 250ish dps. And that would be assuming he doesn't have a prop mod still on. In which case you'll do even less.

Little edit, since were EFT warrioring, the same naked Thorax shooting back is cranking out 350dps, in to the Drake (only Scrammed/webbed 60%). And let's be honest, there are things that do a lot more damage than a Thorax. :P

The difference being that on a frigate, the Thorax can still apply a nice amount of DPS, albeit less than on the Drake, it'll do much, MUCH more than the Drake could ever dream of doing. I mean I'd love to do this for every single ship that can fit HAMs, but at some point you'll have to start admitting that the damage application is a bit low.
Platypus King
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#64 - 2013-12-05 17:54:08 UTC
On topic but also a tad off:

I believe LML are the best weapon system in game for frig/destroyer kiting. That is also why RLML were so good. They didn't fix the base of RLML like they should have instead they created a silly weapon system that has such little use. Instead of looking at LMLs range and damage application like I think should have been done they made RLML nothing like LMLs. That being said 40 second reload sucks and I could get over it if they gave it a 10 second ammo swap when RLMLs are full.

My point is missiles are used for damage selection. Please don't create more missile systems that hinder that. Until then, LML destroyers are the ship that shoots LML that can kill anything note worthy solo.

Finally I believe hams and cruises are pretty decent as is but maybe consider trimming some flight time for increased velocity. Especially on hams. The quicker the volley lands on webbed target the better.
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#65 - 2013-12-05 17:56:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcus Walkuris
TheMercenaryKing wrote:


Again there are many factors, yes, an orbiting frig would take alot less damage, but like any ship, you have some kind of counter or assist such as a TP, Web, or Scram. If you are going into combat improperly, then you do not deserve to do damage. There is a counter to everything in Eve.


If you are going to make the effort to *hand waive "There are no problems here, missiles are fine".
At least have the decency to state facts not fiction, you lay out the numbers or paint a realistic scenario and NOT: "Zebra's eat grass we eat the zebra's and we return to the earth upon which the zebra's eat grass" you see Simba, that is the circle of logic.
Many factors pshh, deserving to do damage, lol. Ohh so I and we all don't deserve to do damage, way to slap the morals around.
Seriously if that is all, don't post. Not trying to troll but that was philosophically offensive "your post".
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#66 - 2013-12-05 18:57:02 UTC
Rab See wrote:
Yes - missile users really dont get it. Its like they play WoW inside eve.

Lets compare, 3x gyro/ballistics - nothing else.
Vanilla Cane 720mm arty, EMP: 434 dps @ 15 + 22k

Vanilla Drake Heavy T2, scourge: 322 dps @ 63k

Vanilla Cane 425mm auto, EMP: 518 dps @ 1.5 + 12k

Vanilla Drake HAss T2, scourge: 444 dps @ 20.2k

Missile users want ALL the benefits, but none of the drawbacks. Try autos for crap range, or artillery for crap damage application. I fly a cane, I know to close and web and scram. I close to apply damage. Artillery, I have to maintain range, I cannot close to apply damage. Try tracking a frigate closein with artillery you fucktards.

In a drake - I fit web and painter and scram. I still get better range with assault, better applied damage ALL the time. You DONT NEED TO TRACK, flying a drake is like flying a tonka toy. Or grow some balls and close in, paint, web and scram the target. Thats how a drake applies damage.

And remember - eve is a game for sharing - get some friends who fly ships that complement the missile boat.


You've never flown a drake if you think arty applies worse than heavy missiles or do you think having a two slot tank for a slow bc is wise?

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Aivo Dresden
State War Academy
Caldari State
#67 - 2013-12-05 19:22:44 UTC
Yea I can't really see a decent Drake fit that requires a MWD, web, scram and TP, leaving a 2 slot tank.
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#68 - 2013-12-05 19:48:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Kitty Bear
Rab See wrote:
Yes - missile users really dont get it. Its like they play WoW inside eve.

Lets compare, 3x gyro/ballistics - nothing else.
Vanilla Cane 720mm arty, EMP: 434 dps @ 15 + 22k

Vanilla Drake Heavy T2, scourge: 322 dps @ 63k

Vanilla Cane 425mm auto, EMP: 518 dps @ 1.5 + 12k

Vanilla Drake HAss T2, scourge: 444 dps @ 20.2k

Missile users want ALL the benefits, but none of the drawbacks. Try autos for crap range, or artillery for crap damage application. I fly a cane, I know to close and web and scram. I close to apply damage. Artillery, I have to maintain range, I cannot close to apply damage. Try tracking a frigate closein with artillery you fucktards.

In a drake - I fit web and painter and scram. I still get better range with assault, better applied damage ALL the time. You DONT NEED TO TRACK, flying a drake is like flying a tonka toy. Or grow some balls and close in, paint, web and scram the target. Thats how a drake applies damage.

And remember - eve is a game for sharing - get some friends who fly ships that complement the missile boat.


comparing Tech 2 missile ammo with a 'cherry picked' Tech 1 projectile ammo
turret users really don't get it either.

720mm Artillery II vs a 25% Omni tank, base Tech 2 DPS is

Quake M is 506.34 dps @ 7500 + 21875m
Tremor M is 289.34 dps @ 54000 + 21875m

then you factor the turrets ability to miss or crit
Quake M becomes 0, 1519.02 dps
Tremor M becomes 0, 868.02 dps

now lets compare turret tracking to missiles explosion radius & explosion velocity
turret tracking within optimal range increases chance of miss
turret tracking within falloff range decreases chance of miss
(i.e. the longer the range, the less relevant tracking becomes to the hit/miss equation)
explosion radius & velocity remain constant regardless of range to the target, so you will generally always score a hit
the targets speed is crucial to both platforms
for missiles that modifier applies at all ranges
for turrets that modifier is greater within optimal range, and less pronounced within falloff ranges

so giving your quoted Scourge results
Vanilla Drake Heavy T2, scourge: 322 dps @ 63k443.44dps @ 47.2k
Cane 720mm T2: 0, 289.34 - 1519.02dps @ 7.5 - 54 + 22k

so yeah ... I totally understand why you would cherrypick 1 specific ammunition type
because when you start doing full and complete comparisons .. missiles suck.

[edit]
ok .. I checked your drake numbers
I apologise for stating you cherrypicked vs a t2 ammo type as I wrong for assuming you were using scourge fury as the drake baseline (ive added scourge fury info above)

so lets compare T1 ammo vs T1 ammo
Vanilla Drake Heavy T2, scourge: 322 dps @ 63k
Vanilla Drake Heavy T2, Inferno/Mjolnir/Nova: 214.34 dps @ 63k

Cane 720mm T2, : - [Type A] 180.84 dps @ 48k + 22k
- [Type B] 289.34 dps @ 30k + 22k
- [Type C] 434 dps @ 15k + 22k

where
[Type A] is Carbonised Lead, Nuclear & Proton
[Type B] is Depleted uranium, Titanium Sabot
[Type C] is EMP, Fusion & Phased Plasma


so the drake either does 214 or 322 dps @ 63km
the hurricane does 0, 180.84 to 1202 dps @ 37km to 70km

like the drake the hurricane can chose it's damage type, and there consequences in range or dps to those choices
Aivo Dresden
State War Academy
Caldari State
#69 - 2013-12-05 20:36:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Aivo Dresden
Rab See's numbers are also made assuming the missile applies full damage, this rarely happens. That's absolute maximum you can get out of a naked cruiser.

You already go below 300 when just shooting a Maller that isn't moving, only because of it's signature radius. If God forbid, it starts moving as well, you will drop to 250 dps. A Maller with a signature radius of 130 and with it's base speed of 164m/s is by no standards a fast or particularly big cruiser.

The damage application is just so horribly bad, I don't think everyone here really understand.
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2013-12-05 21:06:05 UTC
So why do people say HMLs are broken? Im not being a smart ass. I am curious as to the argument.

Unless I am missing something: They apply good consistent (and selectable) DPS at huge ranges. Their damage is effected by target speed and explosion velocity, but the same goes for turrets (and in fact, turret damage is effected by target AND shooter speed and gun resolution). In the example the guy posted above - whatever the damage they do to a Maller at 0 at X speed, they do the same damage to that Maller at X speed out to 60k-ish, and vice-versa. Try that with any medium turret weapon system.

Again - Im not being a smart ass here - I just dont understand the gripe. It sounds as if the gripe is "I want HMLs to be what they were before." Before, they were broken.

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#71 - 2013-12-05 21:15:58 UTC
Hrett wrote:
So why do people say HMLs are broken? Im not being a smart ass. I am curious as to the argument.

Unless I am missing something: They apply good consistent (and selectable) DPS at huge ranges. Their damage is effected by target speed and explosion velocity, but the same goes for turrets (and in fact, turret damage is effected by target AND shooter speed and gun resolution). In the example the guy posted above - whatever the damage they do to a Maller at 0 at X speed, they do the same damage to that Maller at X speed out to 60k-ish, and vice-versa. Try that with any medium turret weapon system.

Again - Im not being a smart ass here - I just dont understand the gripe. It sounds as if the gripe is "I want HMLs to be what they were before." Before, they were broken.


Not to be a smart ass either, but if you have to ask these questions you have not read much into this thread.
Essentially the gripe is: That as you are stating perceived characteristics of missiles, these are created by hearsay and believable since you (clearly) don't use HM or missiles in general.
Read things over missiles suffer damage reduction against stationary targets, at larger ranges they do FAR less damage then turrets since they increase hit chance by kiting. Wth, just read things over it has all been said. (not trying to be short appreciate you trying to jump in, just read a bit).
Rab See
Stellar Dynamics
#72 - 2013-12-05 21:28:24 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Aivo Dresden wrote:
Here come the EFT warriors. Roll
Your paper DPS is very different from actual applied DPS.
If you had been paying any attention to the rest of the thread than you would have noticed that the main issue with heavy missiles is in fact the damage application.


*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

Paper DPS shows what the 'best' is. Its a starting point to illustrate that other factors will influence the applied DPS.

That comes down to fit and flying. *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal
You dont get all of them in one go so compromise and work in a gang.

I love killing 700 dps Tengus that get it wrong. I hate it when they get it right. *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal
Rab See
Stellar Dynamics
#73 - 2013-12-05 21:32:17 UTC
Marcus Walkuris wrote:
Hrett wrote:
So why do people say HMLs are broken? Im not being a smart ass. I am curious as to the argument.

Unless I am missing something: They apply good consistent (and selectable) DPS at huge ranges. Their damage is effected by target speed and explosion velocity, but the same goes for turrets (and in fact, turret damage is effected by target AND shooter speed and gun resolution). In the example the guy posted above - whatever the damage they do to a Maller at 0 at X speed, they do the same damage to that Maller at X speed out to 60k-ish, and vice-versa. Try that with any medium turret weapon system.

Again - Im not being a smart ass here - I just dont understand the gripe. It sounds as if the gripe is "I want HMLs to be what they were before." Before, they were broken.


Not to be a smart ass either, but if you have to ask these questions you have not read much into this thread.
Essentially the gripe is: That as you are stating perceived characteristics of missiles, these are created by hearsay and believable since you (clearly) don't use HM or missiles in general.
Read things over missiles suffer damage reduction against stationary targets, at larger ranges they do FAR less damage then turrets since they increase hit chance by kiting. Wth, just read things over it has all been said. (not trying to be short appreciate you trying to jump in, just read a bit).


So if you think they are bad. Switch ships. Switch weapons. GET THE FK OVER IT. And I will laugh when you find out how bad artillery is unless shooting at something doing zero speed, painted, webbed, scrammed and stupid.
Rab See
Stellar Dynamics
#74 - 2013-12-05 21:40:33 UTC
Aivo Dresden wrote:
Rab See's numbers are also made assuming the missile applies full damage, this rarely happens. That's absolute maximum you can get out of a naked cruiser.

You already go below 300 when just shooting a Maller that isn't moving, only because of it's signature radius. If God forbid, it starts moving as well, you will drop to 250 dps. A Maller with a signature radius of 130 and with it's base speed of 164m/s is by no standards a fast or particularly big cruiser.

The damage application is just so horribly bad, I don't think everyone here really understand.


My numbers assume the missile is doing full damage and the guns too. Neither do. Did you know guns can miss a target doing 10m/s.

Can you not see? Those missiles do damage at 4k like autocannons and at the range of artillery in optimal. And WAY beyond. Fix them and take the crap that is 4k optimal. Fix them and take the crap of missed shots - ZERO damage. A frig orbitting a drake firing heavies gets hit by those, and precision missiles hit better. Artillery will miss every time, as will autocannons.

So you have learned a maller is smaller than the missile sig? PAINT IT FOR **** SAKE. If he has a prop mod, then web/scram it.

With my guns, I will web and scram it, and tracking to assist. Gets the same effect.
Rab See
Stellar Dynamics
#75 - 2013-12-05 21:45:04 UTC
Kitty Bear wrote:


[some numbers]

the hurricane does 0, 180.84 to 1202 dps @ 37km to 70km

like the drake the hurricane can chose it's damage type, and there consequences in range or dps to those choices


Wow. its NOT 1202 dps - its one hit that might add up to the equivalent, then another at 0. I love seeing people make insane assumptions. The average is as stated.
Rab See
Stellar Dynamics
#76 - 2013-12-05 21:46:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Rab See
Aivo Dresden wrote:
Yea I can't really see a decent Drake fit that requires a MWD, web, scram and TP, leaving a 2 slot tank.



Nope - show me a cane that isnt a glass cannon and has all of the above.

2 slot tank . Invuln and Ancillary - VOILA. Hell - its what I use!


I also come with friends. Get some, they can paint, or web or scram.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#77 - 2013-12-05 21:50:28 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Kitty Bear wrote:
then you factor the turrets ability to miss or crit
Quake M becomes 0, 1519.02 dps
Tremor M becomes 0, 868.02 dps
Please, learn math and the turret hit formula before trying to assess turret damage.
*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

Ok, so if I understand correctly, to be good, missiles should :
- perfectly hit a interceptor going full speed, or at least do reasonable damage, like 200dps, and without tackle ;
- still hit farther than any LR turret can ;
- have the same dps than SR turrets with short range ammo ;
- don't be limited to any damage type, or it's unfair.

Have I missed something ?
Aivo Dresden
State War Academy
Caldari State
#78 - 2013-12-05 21:56:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Aivo Dresden
Rab See wrote:
My numbers assume the missile is doing full damage and the guns too. Neither do. Did you know guns can miss a target doing 10m/s.

Can you not see? Those missiles do damage at 4k like autocannons and at the range of artillery in optimal. And WAY beyond. Fix them and take the crap that is 4k optimal. Fix them and take the crap of missed shots - ZERO damage. A frig orbitting a drake firing heavies gets hit by those, and precision missiles hit better. Artillery will miss every time, as will autocannons.

So you have learned a maller is smaller than the missile sig? PAINT IT FOR **** SAKE. If he has a prop mod, then web/scram it.

With my guns, I will web and scram it, and tracking to assist. Gets the same effect.

It is just painful to explain this when you are this oblivious to all the things everyone else has said here. It's like you're just literally not reading it or somehow refusing it from registering.

Ok; so your guns can miss, fair point. They also can get wrecking hits, doing tons of damage. Someone else already put down the math for that.

You don't think it's broken that a cruiser sized weapon already loses almost a third of it's damage from signature radius reductions, when firing at other stationary cruisers? You really don't see the problem with that? Run it through EFT against an Osprey or other small cruisers and then do the same with a Cane or so.

This is really what broke heavy missiles; both for HAMs and HM. The damage reduction in relation to signature radius is just too much. Like I said before; the launchers are alright but that doesn't really matter much if you're going to load them with broken ammo.
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#79 - 2013-12-05 21:58:26 UTC
Rab See wrote:
Aivo Dresden wrote:
Yea I can't really see a decent Drake fit that requires a MWD, web, scram and TP, leaving a 2 slot tank.



Nope - show me a cane that isnt a glass cannon and has all of the above.

2 slot tank . Invuln and Ancillary - VOILA. Hell - its what I use!


I also come with friends. Get some, they can paint, or web or scram.

Seriously, stop hijacki
ng this thread with your 0 fact trolling. I haven't the slightest why missile anything threads keep attracting trolls like you who cannibalize the entire thread with insults and stupidity. You have made no attempt to REASON a different point of view. I reported you and I urge anyone to not reply to your "argume
nts".
Aivo Dresden
State War Academy
Caldari State
#80 - 2013-12-05 22:00:35 UTC
To be honest, fair enough; canes are generally fit like a glass canon. That said; they are doing 3-4 times the damage though. :P A Drake would be more like a glass dagger. Bringing knives to a gunfight and all.