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[NERF] Serpentis web bonus change

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Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#481 - 2013-12-05 18:09:19 UTC
And yes, bhaalgorn's web bonus is indeed very strong, and in some situations, will be better than web strength. However, bhaalgorn webs do not enable a moros to volley afterburning frigates. Vindicator webs do.
Tawa Suyo
C.O.D.E
#482 - 2013-12-05 18:11:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Tawa Suyo
NightmareX wrote:
It doubles the web range. How is that NOT poverpowered?


Now, web range is definitely powerful, it decreases the window of effectiveness of kiters between damage application and caught, but it is not ~over~ powered. It does not in and off itself allow a single class of ships to exceed their designed engagement envelope several times over.


However, in context... Please explain how a web range bonus allows blap dreads to track ab hacs (or even ab frigates) in the same way that a 90% web does? That's why 90% webs are overpowered and that's why they need removal from the game (also the hilarious power of DDs at the frig/tackle level).

(I will even make allowances for the fact that you've just had to go on SiSi to realise something that near every PvP-er knows and that dreads aren't allowed in highsec, so feel free to use broad (but accurate) terms to answer the question)
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#483 - 2013-12-05 18:12:35 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Michael Harari wrote:
And yes, bhaalgorn's web bonus is indeed very strong, and in some situations, will be better than web strength. However, bhaalgorn webs do not enable a moros to volley afterburning frigates. Vindicator webs do.

Because the Vindicator's role is to hit smaller ships much better than the other pirate battleships is doing. What other ships is doing after a Vindicator have webbed someone isn't the Vindicator's fault.

Hitting smaller stuffs really good is the whole idea behind the Vindicator and the reason why it have the web bonus.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#484 - 2013-12-05 18:14:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
NightmareX wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
And yes, bhaalgorn's web bonus is indeed very strong, and in some situations, will be better than web strength. However, bhaalgorn webs do not enable a moros to volley afterburning frigates. Vindicator webs do.

Because the Vindicator's role is to hit smaller ships much better than the other pirate battleships is doing.

It's the whole idea behind the Vindicator and the reason why it have the web bonus.


The vindicator could do that with a local tracking bonus, or 75% webs. 90% webs enable x-l guns (the ones that go on dreads and titans) to hit afterburning frigates.

Edit: http://pbrd.co/1d1yp6t This is a tracking moros against a quad webbed punisher. With 90% webs it gets up to 40% of its dps on the punisher, who is moving at 7m/s. With 60% webs, the moros does 0 damage, no matter how many webs you put on the punisher.
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#485 - 2013-12-05 18:17:45 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Michael Harari wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
And yes, bhaalgorn's web bonus is indeed very strong, and in some situations, will be better than web strength. However, bhaalgorn webs do not enable a moros to volley afterburning frigates. Vindicator webs do.

Because the Vindicator's role is to hit smaller ships much better than the other pirate battleships is doing.

It's the whole idea behind the Vindicator and the reason why it have the web bonus.


The vindicator could do that with a local tracking bonus, or 75% webs. 90% webs enable x-l guns (the ones that go on dreads and titans) to hit afterburning frigates.

Again, what other ships is doing with the ships a Vindicator have pinned down is not the Vindicator's fault. The Vindicator is made to hit smaller stuffs pretty well. And that bonus can't just go away just because other ships hits those ships better. Then it's the other ships problem.

EDIT: If a frig is doing 1300 m/s with his Afterburner overloaded, then a Vindicator is going to take that frig down to 130 m/s. There is no way a dread is going to hit that frig with that speed.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Tawa Suyo
C.O.D.E
#486 - 2013-12-05 18:21:58 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
And yes, bhaalgorn's web bonus is indeed very strong, and in some situations, will be better than web strength. However, bhaalgorn webs do not enable a moros to volley afterburning frigates. Vindicator webs do.

Because the Vindicator's role is to hit smaller ships much better than the other pirate battleships is doing.

It's the whole idea behind the Vindicator and the reason why it have the web bonus.


The vindicator could do that with a local tracking bonus, or 75% webs. 90% webs enable x-l guns (the ones that go on dreads and titans) to hit afterburning frigates.

Again, what other ships is doing with the ships a Vindicator have pinned down is not the Vindicator's fault. The Vindicator is made to hit smaller stuffs pretty well. And that bonus can't just go away just because other ships hits those ships better. Then it's the other ships problem.



So is your suggestion that vindicators shouldn't be allowed in fleets?

Is it also not the primaries fault if they get reps from logi, therefore you can just make logi hilariously powerful?


The vindicator could still hit smaller ships with a tracking bonus and then wouldn't cause an issue in fleet combat.

And you stilll haven't answered the question: please explain how a web range bonus allows blap dreads to track ab hacs (or even ab frigates) in the same way that a 90% web does?
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#487 - 2013-12-05 18:22:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
NightmareX wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
And yes, bhaalgorn's web bonus is indeed very strong, and in some situations, will be better than web strength. However, bhaalgorn webs do not enable a moros to volley afterburning frigates. Vindicator webs do.

Because the Vindicator's role is to hit smaller ships much better than the other pirate battleships is doing.

It's the whole idea behind the Vindicator and the reason why it have the web bonus.


The vindicator could do that with a local tracking bonus, or 75% webs. 90% webs enable x-l guns (the ones that go on dreads and titans) to hit afterburning frigates.

Again, what other ships is doing with the ships a Vindicator have pinned down is not the Vindicator's fault. The Vindicator is made to hit smaller stuffs pretty well. And that bonus can't just go away just because other ships hits those ships better. Then it's the other ships problem.


So you think its ok for a battleship to be hitting a skirmish linked, afterburning interceptor with HG snakes and strong x-instinct?

Edit: This is with not a single tracking modifier - not a single TE, metastasis rig, tracking implant, target painter or drop booster. Just dual webs, and the fact that a 60% webbed, scrammed, vindicator moves faster than a dual 90% webbed malediction
Ueberlisk
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#488 - 2013-12-05 18:23:16 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
And yes, bhaalgorn's web bonus is indeed very strong, and in some situations, will be better than web strength. However, bhaalgorn webs do not enable a moros to volley afterburning frigates. Vindicator webs do.

Because the Vindicator's role is to hit smaller ships much better than the other pirate battleships is doing.

It's the whole idea behind the Vindicator and the reason why it have the web bonus.


The vindicator could do that with a local tracking bonus, or 75% webs. 90% webs enable x-l guns (the ones that go on dreads and titans) to hit afterburning frigates.

Again, what other ships is doing with the ships a Vindicator have pinned down is not the Vindicator's fault. The Vindicator is made to hit smaller stuffs pretty well. And that bonus can't just go away just because other ships hits those ships better. Then it's the other ships problem.

EDIT: If a frig is doing 1300 m/s with his Afterburner overloaded, then a Vindicator is going to take that frig down to 130 m/s. There is no way a dread is going to hit that frig with that speed.


Thats with one web. nuff said.
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#489 - 2013-12-05 18:23:41 UTC
Tawa Suyo wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
And yes, bhaalgorn's web bonus is indeed very strong, and in some situations, will be better than web strength. However, bhaalgorn webs do not enable a moros to volley afterburning frigates. Vindicator webs do.

Because the Vindicator's role is to hit smaller ships much better than the other pirate battleships is doing.

It's the whole idea behind the Vindicator and the reason why it have the web bonus.


The vindicator could do that with a local tracking bonus, or 75% webs. 90% webs enable x-l guns (the ones that go on dreads and titans) to hit afterburning frigates.

Again, what other ships is doing with the ships a Vindicator have pinned down is not the Vindicator's fault. The Vindicator is made to hit smaller stuffs pretty well. And that bonus can't just go away just because other ships hits those ships better. Then it's the other ships problem.



So is your suggestion that vindicators shouldn't be allowed in fleets?

Is it also not the primaries fault if they get reps from logi, therefore you can just make logi hilariously powerful?


The vindicator could still hit smaller ships with a tracking bonus and then wouldn't cause an issue in fleet combat.

And you stilll haven't answered the question: please explain how a web range bonus allows blap dreads to track ab hacs (or even ab frigates) in the same way that a 90% web does?

So now it's all about blap dreads and not about how each pirate ships is balanced to each others?

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#490 - 2013-12-05 18:26:06 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Stasis webifier effects do indeed have a stacking penalty. It's actually a good point that we should add a mention of that fact to their descriptions.


mm.. any intention on rebalancing webs ... a 10% nerf too strength would be nice and mixing the metas up into roles so they are all useful one way or another ??
- range
-strength
-cap usage
-lower cpu requirement

and making the T2 web/mods in general actually need lv5 so its more consistent... ??

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#491 - 2013-12-05 18:26:14 UTC
NightmareX wrote:

So now it's all about blap dreads and not about how each pirate ships is balanced to each others?


No, if you look above I mention the maximally sigtanked malediction being hittable by a vindicator with no tracking modules and void loaded.
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#492 - 2013-12-05 18:26:31 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Ueberlisk wrote:
Thats with one web. nuff said.

And dual 28 km webs and 3150 cap neuted every 24 seconds is not going to kill the frigs ability to use the AB / MWD?

When you are going to neut a frig, you don't activate all of the 3 neuts as the same time. First you activate one neut and then 4-5 seconds later you activate the 2nd neut and so on to keep the cap on the frig low as long as possible.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Saeger1737
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#493 - 2013-12-05 18:28:49 UTC
Vindi doesn't need a tracking bonus, that's what the kronos is for. It lost its webs and has become useless if neuts are present on the field.

MERC WITH A MOUTH, Send me DPS and my fleet will double it back! Special offer!
Tawa Suyo
C.O.D.E
#494 - 2013-12-05 18:29:41 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
[So now it's all about blap dreads and not about how each pirate ships is balanced to each others?


Well, it's about how the ships are balanced in overall PvP. That's what balance is.


And you've still not answered the question; please explain how a web range bonus allows blap dreads to track ab hacs (or even ab frigates) in the same way that a 90% web does?

Also, even if just in regard to other pirate BS. Which other pirate BS allows dreads to track ab frigates?
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#495 - 2013-12-05 18:30:57 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
NightmareX wrote:

So now it's all about blap dreads and not about how each pirate ships is balanced to each others?


No, if you look above I mention the maximally sigtanked malediction being hittable by a vindicator with no tracking modules and void loaded.

In that case, he must be doing something very wrong. I have never managed to hit ANY frigs that are orbiting my Vindicator at 500m / 1km with an AB so my damage would make much of a damage to their frigs.

A frig orbiting me at 500m with a speed of 120 m/s is going to be hard for a Vindicator to hit, even with FN Antimatter.

I even use a +5% tracking implant, so yeah.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#496 - 2013-12-05 18:32:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
NightmareX wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
NightmareX wrote:

So now it's all about blap dreads and not about how each pirate ships is balanced to each others?


No, if you look above I mention the maximally sigtanked malediction being hittable by a vindicator with no tracking modules and void loaded.

In that case, he must be doing something very wrong. I have never managed to hit ANY frigs that are orbiting my Vindicator at 500m / 1km with an AB so my damage would make much of a damage to their frigs.

A frig orbiting me at 500m with a speed of 120 m/s is going to be hard for a Vindicator to hit, even with FN Antimatter.

I even use a +5% tracking implant, so yeah.


A dual vindicator-webbed ab frigate is slower than a scrammed and webbed vindicator. You just slowboat away from it, and its transversal drops to nothing.

This is of course assuming the frigate starts on 0 with you. If he starts at range you can just web him at 18km and blap him there.
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#497 - 2013-12-05 18:35:39 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Tawa Suyo wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
[So now it's all about blap dreads and not about how each pirate ships is balanced to each others?


Well, it's about how the ships are balanced in overall PvP. That's what balance is.


And you've still not answered the question; please explain how a web range bonus allows blap dreads to track ab hacs (or even ab frigates) in the same way that a 90% web does?

Also, even if just in regard to other pirate BS. Which other pirate BS allows dreads to track ab frigates?

It's the combination of web range and neut amount that makes the Bhaalgorn even more dangerous than the Vindicator is.

The Vindicator only do it's DPS potential inside 10 km (so it kinda need a tool to catch others and then get into the optimal range) while the Bhaalgorn have it's potential to DPS, shut down most ships speed and cap wise from around 30 km.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#498 - 2013-12-05 18:37:48 UTC
NightmareX wrote:


The Vindicstor only do it's DPS potential inside 10 km while the bhaalgorn have it's potential to shut down most ships speed and cap wise from around 30 km.


There are more kinds of ammo than void.
Tawa Suyo
C.O.D.E
#499 - 2013-12-05 18:38:29 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Tawa Suyo wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
[So now it's all about blap dreads and not about how each pirate ships is balanced to each others?


Well, it's about how the ships are balanced in overall PvP. That's what balance is.


And you've still not answered the question; please explain how a web range bonus allows blap dreads to track ab hacs (or even ab frigates) in the same way that a 90% web does?

Also, even if just in regard to other pirate BS. Which other pirate BS allows dreads to track ab frigates?

It's the combination of web range and neut amount that makes the Bhaalgorn even more dangerous than the Vindicator is.

The Vindicator only do it's DPS potential inside 10 km while the Bhaalgorn have it's potential to DPS, shut down most ships speed and cap wise from around 30 km.



Except that the frig can just leave because frig cap regen time beats heavy neut cycle time quite handily.

That also doesn't answer the question; please explain how a web range bonus allows blap dreads to track ab hacs (or even ab frigates) in the same way that a 90% web does?
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#500 - 2013-12-05 18:39:50 UTC
Tawa Suyo wrote:
Except that the frig can just leave because frig cap regen time beats heavy neut cycle time quite handily.

That also doesn't answer the question; please explain how a web range bonus allows blap dreads to track ab hacs (or even ab frigates) in the same way that a 90% web does?

Did you forget to read this?: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3967709#post3967709

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama