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[Rubicon 1.1] Sisters of EVE Battleship

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Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#841 - 2013-12-05 16:52:42 UTC
Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:
But they don't always "hear" us, rapids are a VERY good sign hat they choose when to listen and when to pretty much tell us to F off, don't forget that

Rapids were OP, crowding out other missile systems. You know that in your heart. You just don't want to own up to it.
Now they're OP for ganking, but crap for long engagements, so there are trade-offs - as there should be in eve.


Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#842 - 2013-12-05 16:55:37 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
I really have a hard time following on the big issue the hacking/scanning boni seem to create.
It's like asking for coffee, getting free cake, complaining that you don't like the cake, and demanding something else. It just doesn't work that way.
You ordered coffee, you're given *this* cake for free. Deal with it.

PS: I believe it should be EITHER rr-amount or rr-range. Both is a bit much for a T1-ship.


without both it would be no different than being a logistics cruiser (actually it would be worse because the cruiser has 2 to 3X the range, and/or the same repairing power).

Assume a cap transfer, cap boosters.. I don't see this having any overt cap issues at the moment (considering this battleship has 6X the amount of capacitor the logistics ships have).


oh.

And to the coffee analogy.

If I ordered coffee and it was 3 dollars (lets say I ordered a cappuccino), and they gave me a piece of fruit cake with it.. Hey great, free cake.

If I ordered coffee and it was 60 dollars (same damn cappuccino), and they gave me a piece of fruit cake for "free", to hell I'd argue left and right for attempting to charge me 60 fking dollars for a damn coffee, and then having the nerve to try to give me a "free" fruit cake as some bonus that I'm suppose to be happy and grateful for.

Yaay!!!!
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
#843 - 2013-12-05 16:59:15 UTC
Mournful,

I never said they weren't OP. I said they are worthless now, which they are. The fix wasn't a fix, it just broke them worse. So now they need looked into again to make them worth using again.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#844 - 2013-12-05 17:03:03 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
Lloyd Roses wrote:
I really have a hard time following on the big issue the hacking/scanning boni seem to create.
It's like asking for coffee, getting free cake, complaining that you don't like the cake, and demanding something else. It just doesn't work that way.
You ordered coffee, you're given *this* cake for free. Deal with it.

PS: I believe it should be EITHER rr-amount or rr-range. Both is a bit much for a T1-ship.


without both it would be no different than being a logistics cruiser (actually it would be worse because the cruiser has 2 to 3X the range, and/or the same repairing power).

Assume a cap transfer, cap boosters.. I don't see this having any overt cap issues at the moment (considering this battleship has 6X the amount of capacitor the logistics ships have).


oh.

And to the coffee analogy.

If I ordered coffee and it was 3 dollars (lets say I ordered a cappuccino), and they gave me a piece of fruit cake with it.. Hey great, free cake.

If I ordered coffee and it was 60 dollars (same damn cappuccino), and they gave me a piece of fruit cake for "free", to hell I'd argue left and right for attempting to charge me 60 fking dollars for a damn coffee, and then having the nerve to try to give me a "free" fruit cake as some bonus that I'm suppose to be happy and grateful for.


The RR-amount in comparison to a TECH 2 (specialized) logistics vessel is aroun 175%-200% of what a maxrepfitted Oneiros could achieve or what you can realistically fit on a guardian. The RR-amount compared to other T1-logicruisers would be roughly 300%, while also staying T1.

300% repamount, (range debatable, but 20km for slow battleships is totally sufficient and quite generous), full bonused dronebay, brilliant slotlayout for a logivessel (SeBos, heavy CBs, MJD, ECCM all fit in the mids, together with 6 resist-lows) and it having mostly the resistances of a well-fitted guardian - to me sounds like they pressed one gimmick to many into that hull, as it stands now.

Your coffeeresponse is dull. You obviously think that both the role-bonus and the price should be dropped to your desired levels, sadly, no extracake for you.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#845 - 2013-12-05 17:04:02 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Okay, another short update:

Adding role bonus: 100% bonus to remote armor repairer range

We agreed that this will make quality of life a lot better when attempting to use the remote repair bonus without adding too much power.

Possibly a more detailed post in a couple hours regarding the discussion on black ops/bridging/cloaking and the all-over-the-place design, but I'm super busy atm and just wanted to make sure you guys knew about this change as soon as possible.

Thanks


I don't think remote reps should require so much bonusing to be usable, as someone else pointed out. It should be something like 20km base for large, with logi cruisers having 30 or 40 or something maybe.

I see you guys throwing around a lot of very large bonuses these days, when I think instead you should be changing mods themselves.
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#846 - 2013-12-05 17:10:06 UTC
Sal Landry wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Rise and Fozzie are just two people, who recognise that the wisdom of crowds is to be respected.

Are you serious?

I hope not. The inattention to the asked-for feedback in the RLML, as well as the casual dismissal of other opinions by Rise(CCP40sec), clearly demonstrate that they have zero fucks to give when it comes to what the player base has to say.
As for RLMLs, or LMs, being OP prior to Retribution- That has been covered for well over a dozen pages in the RLML thread that is being ignored by CCP, it boils down to the proper medium missile options being complete crap for just about everything.

I am glad to see however, that after adding another check in the box to the "wreck missiles" plan, they have moved on to another project. Maybe next year we'll see what they pull out of the sewer for missiles...
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#847 - 2013-12-05 17:15:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
TrouserDeagle wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Okay, another short update:

Adding role bonus: 100% bonus to remote armor repairer range

We agreed that this will make quality of life a lot better when attempting to use the remote repair bonus without adding too much power.

Possibly a more detailed post in a couple hours regarding the discussion on black ops/bridging/cloaking and the all-over-the-place design, but I'm super busy atm and just wanted to make sure you guys knew about this change as soon as possible.

Thanks


I don't think remote reps should require so much bonusing to be usable, as someone else pointed out. It should be something like 20km base for large, with logi cruisers having 30 or 40 or something maybe.

I see you guys throwing around a lot of very large bonuses these days, when I think instead you should be changing mods themselves.


Logi cruisers should really have like 25-30km range. Cap chaining logi should be forced into heavy neut range/point range, and non-chaining logi should be forced into bonused neut range (geddon heavy or curse medium range)/linked point range.

Its crazy that a cruiser can rep 1800 dps from 70km (scimitar repping another scimitar), but no subcap in the game, even pirate battleships with full faction/deadspace fits can do that sort of damage. And logi dont even have to deal with tracking, falloff or sigs.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#848 - 2013-12-05 17:16:26 UTC
Oh, another thought: regarding the hacking bonus. I actually think that there's a good reason to bump it up to +15. Bear with me, here, as it's gonna take a little bit to get there.

Right now, the +10 bonus is shared amongst the entire SOE line and covops / exploration T3s. Given the low-risk and fast-paced nature of hacking sites (if only to get to them before someone else does,) a battleship is at a marked disadvantage, especially in low/null security space. Bumping the bonus to +15 would give greater incentive to risk the battleship for the site.

This actually dovetails well with the proposed covert jump drive I've been talking up in previous posts, and gives the covert jump drive some PvE utility. Consider the following scenario: I am flying a covert ops frigate with a covert cyno, and my buddy is in a Nestor packed to the chock with hacking utility. I explore the surrounding areas and pin down a hacking site. Then, I light my covert cyno and bring in my friend to do the site. He does the site while I go and look for another. Rinse, repeat.

This fits well with the Sisters of Eve theme, and with the ship line generally resembling ambulances in general -- first responding relief and support, and gives the ship the covert feel that one expects without going too far in the process.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#849 - 2013-12-05 17:19:16 UTC
Querns wrote:
Oh, another thought: regarding the hacking bonus. I actually think that there's a good reason to bump it up to +15. Bear with me, here, as it's gonna take a little bit to get there.

Right now, the +10 bonus is shared amongst the entire SOE line and covops / exploration T3s. Given the low-risk and fast-paced nature of hacking sites (if only to get to them before someone else does,) a battleship is at a marked disadvantage, especially in low/null security space. Bumping the bonus to +15 would give greater incentive to risk the battleship for the site.

This actually dovetails well with the proposed covert jump drive I've been talking up in previous posts, and gives the covert jump drive some PvE utility. Consider the following scenario: I am flying a covert ops frigate with a covert cyno, and my buddy is in a Nestor packed to the chock with hacking utility. I explore the surrounding areas and pin down a hacking site. Then, I light my covert cyno and bring in my friend to do the site. He does the site while I go and look for another. Rinse, repeat.

This fits well with the Sisters of Eve theme, and with the ship line generally resembling ambulances in general -- first responding relief and support, and gives the ship the covert feel that one expects without going too far in the process.

I agree- except I'd dare to suggest bumping it up to +20. A battleship is not the first choice for exploration, and a bonus that high would actually make it reasonable to choose the Nestor over a Covert Ops or T3 for exploration.

"A City made of Dreams is built in heaven"
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#850 - 2013-12-05 17:22:53 UTC
Wouldn't +20 also make sure that absolutely and literally everyone could complete even WH Ghost Sites with ease?
Martin Vanzyl
EVE University
Ivy League
#851 - 2013-12-05 17:23:33 UTC
CCP Rise,

You need to ask yourself the following question, "What does the individual capsuleer not have now, but will need in the future, given the direction that CCP Seagull is steering us in?" Or "What type of ship would we need going through THE stargate?"

There'd be no jump gates in new frontier... so a Small/Medium/Large Jump Drive - which doesn't use fuel, and has significantly less range than fueled Cap Jump Drives, but has a cooldown/recharge timer that will make it quite a strategic consideration when to use it

Clone Vat Bay - similar ability to Rorqual, clone jump into the Nestor and it spawns in space where you last left it in the new galaxy, no need to have to go all the way back to New Eden through the Stargate to jump clone to that corp event you want to attend. Make it an ability only usable 'On grid', hi, low, null, new galaxy through Stargate, so as to avoid making wspace pvp corps cry murder. Since being able to clone jump into wormhole space...Twisted

Ship Maintenance Bay - Dock cruiser and below stuff inside for fitting and repair. For fixing PVE damage to modules and PVP,,, no stations out there.

RR amount and range ability in the band between a Cruiser and Carrier.

Drone bay and bonuses that can give it teeth as well, along with the current Laser bonus.

This will most certainly justify the incredible LP and Isk cost.

Otherwise as it stands now, this ship is just a LP sink.
Grenn Putubi
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#852 - 2013-12-05 17:26:55 UTC
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:
Querns wrote:
Oh, another thought: regarding the hacking bonus. I actually think that there's a good reason to bump it up to +15. Bear with me, here, as it's gonna take a little bit to get there.

Right now, the +10 bonus is shared amongst the entire SOE line and covops / exploration T3s. Given the low-risk and fast-paced nature of hacking sites (if only to get to them before someone else does,) a battleship is at a marked disadvantage, especially in low/null security space. Bumping the bonus to +15 would give greater incentive to risk the battleship for the site.

This actually dovetails well with the proposed covert jump drive I've been talking up in previous posts, and gives the covert jump drive some PvE utility. Consider the following scenario: I am flying a covert ops frigate with a covert cyno, and my buddy is in a Nestor packed to the chock with hacking utility. I explore the surrounding areas and pin down a hacking site. Then, I light my covert cyno and bring in my friend to do the site. He does the site while I go and look for another. Rinse, repeat.

This fits well with the Sisters of Eve theme, and with the ship line generally resembling ambulances in general -- first responding relief and support, and gives the ship the covert feel that one expects without going too far in the process.

I agree- except I'd dare to suggest bumping it up to +20. A battleship is not the first choice for exploration, and a bonus that high would actually make it reasonable to choose the Nestor over a Covert Ops or T3 for exploration.


anything more than +10 would make hacking trivial for someone with T2 modules. You'd end up with enough strength to get past any obstacle with only taking damage very rarely.
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#853 - 2013-12-05 17:27:50 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Phoenix Jones wrote:
Lloyd Roses wrote:
I really have a hard time following on the big issue the hacking/scanning boni seem to create.
It's like asking for coffee, getting free cake, complaining that you don't like the cake, and demanding something else. It just doesn't work that way.
You ordered coffee, you're given *this* cake for free. Deal with it.

PS: I believe it should be EITHER rr-amount or rr-range. Both is a bit much for a T1-ship.


without both it would be no different than being a logistics cruiser (actually it would be worse because the cruiser has 2 to 3X the range, and/or the same repairing power).

Assume a cap transfer, cap boosters.. I don't see this having any overt cap issues at the moment (considering this battleship has 6X the amount of capacitor the logistics ships have).


oh.

And to the coffee analogy.

If I ordered coffee and it was 3 dollars (lets say I ordered a cappuccino), and they gave me a piece of fruit cake with it.. Hey great, free cake.

If I ordered coffee and it was 60 dollars (same damn cappuccino), and they gave me a piece of fruit cake for "free", to hell I'd argue left and right for attempting to charge me 60 fking dollars for a damn coffee, and then having the nerve to try to give me a "free" fruit cake as some bonus that I'm suppose to be happy and grateful for.


The RR-amount in comparison to a TECH 2 (specialized) logistics vessel is aroun 175%-200% of what a maxrepfitted Oneiros could achieve or what you can realistically fit on a guardian. The RR-amount compared to other T1-logicruisers would be roughly 300%, while also staying T1.

300% repamount, (range debatable, but 20km for slow battleships is totally sufficient and quite generous), full bonused dronebay, brilliant slotlayout for a logivessel (SeBos, heavy CBs, MJD, ECCM all fit in the mids, together with 6 resist-lows) and it having mostly the resistances of a well-fitted guardian - to me sounds like they pressed one gimmick to many into that hull, as it stands now.

Your coffeeresponse is dull. You obviously think that both the role-bonus and the price should be dropped to your desired levels, sadly, no extracake for you.


Just the reverse. I want the rep range, I want the rep amount bonus.

I don't want the +10 virus/analyzer bonus (aka the fruitcake).

I think you believe I don't like the rep range bonus or the rep amount bonus. That is incorrect.

But like I said before, if the analyzer/relic bonuses aren't factored into the ships and is purely some (add-on), so be it.



Yaay!!!!
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#854 - 2013-12-05 17:29:32 UTC
Grenn Putubi wrote:
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:
Querns wrote:
Oh, another thought: regarding the hacking bonus. I actually think that there's a good reason to bump it up to +15. Bear with me, here, as it's gonna take a little bit to get there.

Right now, the +10 bonus is shared amongst the entire SOE line and covops / exploration T3s. Given the low-risk and fast-paced nature of hacking sites (if only to get to them before someone else does,) a battleship is at a marked disadvantage, especially in low/null security space. Bumping the bonus to +15 would give greater incentive to risk the battleship for the site.

This actually dovetails well with the proposed covert jump drive I've been talking up in previous posts, and gives the covert jump drive some PvE utility. Consider the following scenario: I am flying a covert ops frigate with a covert cyno, and my buddy is in a Nestor packed to the chock with hacking utility. I explore the surrounding areas and pin down a hacking site. Then, I light my covert cyno and bring in my friend to do the site. He does the site while I go and look for another. Rinse, repeat.

This fits well with the Sisters of Eve theme, and with the ship line generally resembling ambulances in general -- first responding relief and support, and gives the ship the covert feel that one expects without going too far in the process.

I agree- except I'd dare to suggest bumping it up to +20. A battleship is not the first choice for exploration, and a bonus that high would actually make it reasonable to choose the Nestor over a Covert Ops or T3 for exploration.


anything more than +10 would make hacking trivial for someone with T2 modules. You'd end up with enough strength to get past any obstacle with only taking damage very rarely.

Yeah, I agree that +20 is too much. +15 would make things possibly too easy, but considering that you are risking a 1.5b+ ship to do the deed, I feel like that's actually okay.

Also, to the guy above who suggested the clone vat bay -- just, no. You've obviously never tried to use one. Anyone who has knows that clone vat bays are uniformly terrible and until they are iterated on (if ever,) that they should not even be trained, much less unironically suggested as being used.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#855 - 2013-12-05 17:35:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
TrouserDeagle wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Okay, another short update:

Adding role bonus: 100% bonus to remote armor repairer range

We agreed that this will make quality of life a lot better when attempting to use the remote repair bonus without adding too much power.

Possibly a more detailed post in a couple hours regarding the discussion on black ops/bridging/cloaking and the all-over-the-place design, but I'm super busy atm and just wanted to make sure you guys knew about this change as soon as possible.

Thanks


I don't think remote reps should require so much bonusing to be usable, as someone else pointed out. It should be something like 20km base for large, with logi cruisers having 30 or 40 or something maybe.

I see you guys throwing around a lot of very large bonuses these days, when I think instead you should be changing mods themselves.



Logi cruisers have a 70km rep and energy transfer range, not to mention generous fitting and capacitor bonuses to go with it.


If you are forcing logi into brawling range you may as well bring more brawlers...that is about all of the good they will do you.
Candente
Navy Veteran Club
#856 - 2013-12-05 17:36:53 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
In the posts for the Stratios and Astero I think I mentioned that one of the designs we are trying to emulate is the Gnosis. Ships capable of doing many things but being the absolute best for few.


How often do Gnoses actually get used, though? If you make a hard-to-get, expensive ship that's ok at a bunch of things, but doesn't have any one thing it excels at, you're just going to see people spend less money on three or four cheaper ships that each excel at their role.

Drones? Use a Domi.

Logi? Use a Guardian or Oneiros.

Exploration? Use a CovOps.

Cheaper, easier to get, better at their job.



  • The Gnosis is the same price of a Drake, oppose to Nestor will be priced as a dread
  • The Gnosis can be used by all without discriminating racial/weapon/armor system skills, oppose to the SoE ships being Amarr/Gallente
  • The Gnosis is a BC so it travel around faster than Nestor, though this bs may travel just as fast due to its low mass.
  • Both ships are really only for highsec pve. You got DED 4/10 where you can do with Gnosis at least, but no such luck with a bs.


Sure, there are more specialized ships that can do individual things better than Gnosis, but I dare say that the Gnosis is a successful Swiss knife due to its low price, low entry barrier, and a focused theme (on exploration), things which Nestor, at its current form, definitely lacks.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#857 - 2013-12-05 17:37:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
Michael Harari wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Okay, another short update:

Adding role bonus: 100% bonus to remote armor repairer range

We agreed that this will make quality of life a lot better when attempting to use the remote repair bonus without adding too much power.

Possibly a more detailed post in a couple hours regarding the discussion on black ops/bridging/cloaking and the all-over-the-place design, but I'm super busy atm and just wanted to make sure you guys knew about this change as soon as possible.

Thanks


I don't think remote reps should require so much bonusing to be usable, as someone else pointed out. It should be something like 20km base for large, with logi cruisers having 30 or 40 or something maybe.

I see you guys throwing around a lot of very large bonuses these days, when I think instead you should be changing mods themselves.


Logi cruisers should really have like 25-30km range. Cap chaining logi should be forced into heavy neut range/point range, and non-chaining logi should be forced into bonused neut range (geddon heavy or curse medium range)/linked point range.

Its crazy that a cruiser can rep 1800 dps from 70km (scimitar repping another scimitar), but no subcap in the game, even pirate battleships with full faction/deadspace fits can do that sort of damage. And logi dont even have to deal with tracking, falloff or sigs.



well i did say in the T1 logi cruiser buff that 1000% too range is crazy but they ignored it and if you fit large reps you can get some crazy range out of them... i think bringing in e-war and logi into more mid range would be about right say 50km sort of range .. since these are the most powerful mods surely giving them excessive range gives them impunity too being countered in most circumstances ..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
#858 - 2013-12-05 17:40:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Thaddeus Eggeras
The Gnosis is only low now because EVERYONE got one and because of the BPs from the collectors edition. Once enough of them get blow away, they will go up. Give it a year or 2. The SoE BS will be around the price of a Mach, or other top pirate faction BSs, maybe slightly higher, nothing more. Stop whining
Hatsumi Kobayashi
Perkone
Caldari State
#859 - 2013-12-05 17:42:58 UTC
If you're going to stick with the exploration theme for the flavour of it and since all level-headed people know a battleship with a covert ops cloaking device would be redonkulous, what about a built-in warp core bonus like the Venture? Doesn't have to be big, even something like +2 would give credence to it being a SoE support hull with Asteroses and Stratioses.

No sig.
BeanBagKing
The Order of Atlas
#860 - 2013-12-05 17:46:51 UTC
Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:
The SoE BS will be around the price of a Mach, or other top pirate faction BSs, maybe slightly higher, nothing more. Stop whining

If thats true then there would probably be a lots less complaints, but every estimate has been on the order of three times higher. Where are you getting yours from? It also doesn't help that CCP has yet to comment on an intended price point.