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Why high sec Exploration rewards are that horrible?

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RAW23
#21 - 2013-12-05 08:35:48 UTC
Most people in this thread are just lazily repeating tired platitudes and not replying to the actual question.

The question is not 'why are high-sec exploration rewards low in comparison to low and null sec' but 'why are high-sec exploration rewards low in comparison to other high-sec activities'.

Banging the risk/reward drum doesn't answer this one (although a few of the replies have been more enlightening).

There are two types of EVE player:

those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.
Orravan
Anomalie
#22 - 2013-12-05 08:42:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Orravan
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
CCP also doesn't takes a hint that a majority of players eventually understand that they're being forced to play a certain way and thus they leave hisec through the unsub door.

It's not CCP' fault but their own. These players didn't understand what Eve is about to begin with. They are not more "forced to play a certain way" than they are "forced" to shoot and being shot in a FPS game. It's just what the game is about.

Eve has always been that way, a pvp game by essence, where rewards are equivalent to the risks taken. And that's what made it a successful game, actually.
And to be honest, HighSec and PvE has been boosted a lot on the last 10 years. You obviously don't realize how profitable and secure HighSec is right now, given the nature of Eve.


RAW23 wrote:
The question is not 'why are high-sec exploration rewards low in comparison to low and null sec' but 'why are high-sec exploration rewards low in comparison to other high-sec activities'.

Quote:
so why exploration rewards on high sec so bad ?

The repeated emphasis on "in High Sec" in OP' message makes it clear enough that's it's a comparison between HighSec and LowSec/Null exploration.
Either that, or OP is not clear enough. You'll notice that basically everyone, either those supporting OP or those contradicting him, understood it that way.

The same answers will be given anyway : risk / reward is the reason. Mining can earn you some cash in HighSec, but it's boring as hell, and it hardly is a "game" (though I acknowledge some people are having fun with it - which is fine).
And mining simply can't be compared to exploration, as it's the cornerstone of production in Eve.

Finicky diplomat. Suicidal explorer. Faithful ally.
Cheng Musana
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2013-12-05 09:24:09 UTC
Highsec is not supposed to be a insane source of income. Thats why you only get the lower end sites there. However sansha relic sites drop tripped power circuits and armor plates. both decent income for ISK.
Vicky Somers
Rusty Anchor
#24 - 2013-12-05 10:10:14 UTC
When it comes to exploration and reward:risk ratio, lowsec is the best and most fun place. You can move around freely and never get blown up if you do the basics of pvp right like watch local, d-scan and not poop yourself on a gate with reds. Most of lowsec if fairly empty. There are no bubbles. The sites can be very rewarding and most don't require much in terms of firepower and tank. The biggest threat you'll encounter in lowsec is other explorers, which doesn't happen very often. So yeah, just find a nice and quiet cluster of lowsec systems and go explore there.
Paul Otichoda
Perkone
Caldari State
#25 - 2013-12-05 10:11:27 UTC
My main problem with low/null combat sites is that they seem to be only able to be done by BS or heavy assault cruisers, which are very expensive and I don't have the money to waste on a BS that might get blown up before I cover it costs and I can't yet use heavy assault cruisers.

So either way I'm stuck with high sec combat sites.
Erotica 1
Krypteia Operations
#26 - 2013-12-05 10:19:43 UTC
Try exploring a highsec gate with some friends. It's amazing what kind of loot drops jump in right in front of you on a regular basis. All you have to do is shoot the unarmed freighter within the allotted time before Concord ends your mission.

See Bio for isk doubling rules. If you didn't read bio, chances are you funded those who did.
Seraph Essael
Air
The Initiative.
#27 - 2013-12-05 10:25:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Seraph Essael
Here, take a look at this. DED3's and DED4's in hisec are pretty good loot, especially if the DED module (sometimes modules) drops in them.

Also dont just always assume the sites are crap because nothing is in the loot. Sometimes you have to kill things in a specific order so that the commander will spawn or shoot certain structures etc.

In my first few months of Eve I made an absolute killing off the hisec DED sites. Bounties, loot, salvage and DED modules all added up and I had 2.7 billion in ISK. After 3 months of playing and still being a newbie, thats pretty good. I have of course got considerably less now though, as I'm Eve poor again (I need to run some more at somepoint).

Edit: Also don't underestimate the value of friends. Join a corp that runs lowsec and nullsec DED's so you can have people help you skill in the right direction and run DED5's and above when you're ready.

Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person."
RAW23
#28 - 2013-12-05 10:31:29 UTC  |  Edited by: RAW23
Orravan wrote:


RAW23 wrote:
The question is not 'why are high-sec exploration rewards low in comparison to low and null sec' but 'why are high-sec exploration rewards low in comparison to other high-sec activities'.

Quote:
so why exploration rewards on high sec so bad ?

The repeated emphasis on "in High Sec" in OP' message makes it clear enough that's it's a comparison between HighSec and LowSec/Null exploration.
Either that, or OP is not clear enough. You'll notice that basically everyone, either those supporting OP or those contradicting him, understood it that way.



Every single example he gives for comparison is to a different high-sec activity. He doesn't mention low or null at all. The reason he emphasises 'high-sec' is just because he is ... talking about high-sec exploration and has nothing to say about other types at all. The subsequent discussion based on a comparison to low and null is a consequence of laziness on the part of those responding and a pre-disposition towards reading everything in terms of their pet peeves. It has nothing to do with any lack of clarity in the OP.

Quote:
The same answers will be given anyway : risk / reward is the reason. Mining can earn you some cash in HighSec, but it's boring as hell, and it hardly is a "game" (though I acknowledge some people are having fun with it - which is fine).
And mining simply can't be compared to exploration, as it's the cornerstone of production in Eve.


I don't find this particularly compelling. a) Risk/reward is not a catch-all mantra that also covers boredom vs. excitement, those are two quite different things. b) His first two comparisons are to level 1 and 2 missions and, as far as I'm aware, these are not inherently more risky than exploration.

More convincing was the suggestion on the first page that high-sec exploration is only intended to be an introductory playground to get the skills down and is not actually meant to be a profession at all.

There are two types of EVE player:

those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.
Nalelmir Ahashion
Industrial Management and Engineering
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#29 - 2013-12-05 10:41:46 UTC
well guys the point of this thread is "Exploration rewards in highsec vs other highsec rewards".

I agree that lower security areas gives much better rewards and will be much more interesting to play but as my exploration skills were low I was practicing on highsec until I would have got them high enough.

I did number of DED 3\10 and 4\10 some unranked combat signatures, data and relic sites and of course the usual anomalies.

thing is that I really love exploration it's lot of fun... I was just roaming systems finding hidden places in space discovering stuff with some interesting hacking mini game \ scanning mini game and combat BUT rewards are joke I mean... 500 isk from data site? wtf

while doing L1s you get better reward then this and trust me I didn't got almost +10 standing with amarr navy without learning to check online every space pocket before I go into it and prepare myself accordingly... so once in a while you .. might... get officer loot yay but everywhere else you might get that loot...

so some ratting on belts there are officer rats sometimes with huge loot drops, on security missions you get the chance for officer spawn as well and loot from buildings. while mining in high sec I can make loads of cash very easily as I got perfect refining as well but I don't care about the isk I got enough for plex and some nice ship to fool around but to my annoyance scanning and searching a site for 20 minutes then get like 100 isk is just let down.. I thought there will be some scale of rewards with other activities.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#30 - 2013-12-05 11:00:11 UTC
In hisec, everything is indeed horrible

Players, mechanics, rewards. It's nice for your first month and first steps in space, but the game really starts once you leave the cradle.

Good luck!



.
Nalelmir Ahashion
Industrial Management and Engineering
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#31 - 2013-12-05 11:24:51 UTC
guys please stop comparing high to low and null this is not the topic here!

I'm asking about exploration vs other activities in highsec!

Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#32 - 2013-12-05 11:32:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:
guys please stop comparing high to low and null this is not the topic here!

I'm asking about exploration vs other activities in highsec!



For ages I made 65m/hr doing serpentis highsec exploration. I also made about 60m/hr when I was blitzing missions with a dominix.

if you do guristas highsec exploration you can beat 100m, and if I blitzed for sisters at their current conversion rate, I'd probably be near on 100m/hr in a dominix. About the only way you'll do better than those solo is mach in missions or by running incursions.


exploration is mostly about the sigs you discard, so that you get more time to find and do the ones with the likelyhood of valuable drops. and its also about how long you've been doing it to even out the randomness. It is a skinnerbox task after all.
Nalelmir Ahashion
Industrial Management and Engineering
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#33 - 2013-12-05 11:40:39 UTC
Tauranon wrote:


For ages I made 65m/hr doing serpentis highsec exploration. I also made about 60m/hr when I was blitzing missions with a dominix.

if you do guristas highsec exploration you can beat 100m, and if I blitzed for sisters at their current conversion rate, I'd probably be near on 100m/hr in a dominix. About the only way you'll do better than those solo is mach in missions or by running incursions.


exploration is mostly about the sigs you discard, so that you get more time to find and do the ones with the likelyhood of valuable drops. and its also about how long you've been doing it to even out the randomness. It is a skinnerbox task after all.



I tried exploration sites of all kinds for about 3-4 days and about 20 hours in total I think.

I did it in amarr space on domain and Kador regions in 0.5 and 0.6 regions as well..

never I had more valuable drop then the random 10 mil turret drop I got.

might be the site type? blood raiders and sansha sites have less chance to drop anything which worth the time?
Bloodmyst Ranwar
Menace of Morons
#34 - 2013-12-05 11:53:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodmyst Ranwar
Honestly, what a joke of a thread!

I consider myself a noobie to this game (been playing for about a year now) and even I know that you cannot expect to have such high rewards in relatively safe space!

If you want better rewards start exploring in low sec.... if you aren't happy with the rewards in low sec go into null sec!

The opportunities are there and it's entirely up to you where you do your exploration. Personally, I can't believe pilots think it's even that risky to explore nullsec!

If you want to stay in highsec and aren't happy with the rewards exploration provides you. Find another activity that nets you bigger rewards.

Don't come onto the forums whining to the developers to make the game "easy" for you. This alone is the sole reason why so many games these days are ****.



TLDR:Learn how to EVE. The more you learn about the game, the less you are worried about what security space you are in. If you can't be bothered, go back to WOW. WOW already caters to the "I want an easy, social game" audience.

EDIT: For those who say there isn't any ISK to be made in exploration. Please pass the word onto everyone else, the less exploration, the more sites I can run. I'm quiet happy with the ISK p/hour I generate. Here's a few hint I can give;

Exploration Skills are actually worth researching to LVL 5.
Try Null Sec exploration.
Some locations net better loot then others.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#35 - 2013-12-05 11:58:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:
Tauranon wrote:


For ages I made 65m/hr doing serpentis highsec exploration. I also made about 60m/hr when I was blitzing missions with a dominix.

if you do guristas highsec exploration you can beat 100m, and if I blitzed for sisters at their current conversion rate, I'd probably be near on 100m/hr in a dominix. About the only way you'll do better than those solo is mach in missions or by running incursions.


exploration is mostly about the sigs you discard, so that you get more time to find and do the ones with the likelyhood of valuable drops. and its also about how long you've been doing it to even out the randomness. It is a skinnerbox task after all.



I tried exploration sites of all kinds for about 3-4 days and about 20 hours in total I think.

I did it in amarr space on domain and Kador regions in 0.5 and 0.6 regions as well..

never I had more valuable drop then the random 10 mil turret drop I got.

might be the site type? blood raiders and sansha sites have less chance to drop anything which worth the time?


If you want to explore you should do all the unrateds and see what their escalations do and where they take you to. If you just want to make isk, focus on pirate 3/10s and 4/10s. 3-4 days of doing random exploration of what ever you find, will not even out your unlucky/lucky drops from the 3/10s and 4/10s because its not enough entries into the deds to get a reasonable sample.

There are a few strategies for finding ded sites more frequently - especially if your game time is moderate.

I would expect to make 60m/hr on average (with big streaks of nothing) from the 3 armor races, and 100m/hr from the shield races if I was really trying hard.
Nalelmir Ahashion
Industrial Management and Engineering
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#36 - 2013-12-05 12:03:36 UTC
Bloodmyst Ranwar wrote:

TLDR: Learn how to EVE. The more you learn about the game, the less you are worried about what security space you are in. If you can't be bothered, go back to WOW. WOW already caters to the "I want an easy, social game" audience.


if you finished to stroke your e-peen then I'll point you out I am not comparing low or null activities but the fact that most of the exploration sites I encountered on high sec including DED 3\10 and 4\10 had ridiculous drops and loot....
Make sense to think that an encounter which I needed to scan for and find in hidden corner of the system will net something which is at least about the same as L1 or something but hell on data site I got like 200 isk :X on relic site I got 5,000 isk and both of those I cargo scanned and picked about 4-5 cans cherry picking.

so the point is not to nerf or boost rewards or do any change at all as I don't really care I got other ways to make isk I just enjoy the experience my problem is I'm puzzled at this weird small value drops at first place..



@ Weeesearch so basicly you say that the DED rated sites are average value and the un rated sites are the more profitable ones that I should pursue?

what your thoughts about data and archaeology sites? you think they are worth the time?
Bloodmyst Ranwar
Menace of Morons
#37 - 2013-12-05 12:09:45 UTC
Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:
Bloodmyst Ranwar wrote:

TLDR: Learn how to EVE. The more you learn about the game, the less you are worried about what security space you are in. If you can't be bothered, go back to WOW. WOW already caters to the "I want an easy, social game" audience.


if you finished to stroke your e-peen then I'll point you out I am not comparing low or null activities but the fact that most of the exploration sites I encountered on high sec including DED 3\10 and 4\10 had ridiculous drops and loot....
Make sense to think that an encounter which I needed to scan for and find in hidden corner of the system will net something which is at least about the same as L1 or something but hell on data site I got like 200 isk :X on relic site I got 5,000 isk and both of those I cargo scanned and picked about 4-5 cans cherry picking.

so the point is not to nerf or boost rewards or do any change at all as I don't really care I got other ways to make isk I just enjoy the experience my problem is I'm puzzled at this weird small value drops at first place..



@ Weeesearch so basicly you say that the DED rated sites are average value and the un rated sites are the more profitable ones that I should pursue?

what your thoughts about data and archaeology sites? you think they are worth the time?


Last time I checked, the title of the thread was "Why high sec Exploration rewards are that horrible?" I'm merely pointing out that if you aren't satisfied with it, pick another location.

Otherwise, sorry if I misread the title...... did I get the wrong memo?
Nalelmir Ahashion
Industrial Management and Engineering
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#38 - 2013-12-05 12:15:52 UTC
@ Bloodmyst Ranwar

I'll explain... the title is just one part of a thread.. you should read the official post and preferably the entire topic before you post.

have a nice day sir.
Bloodmyst Ranwar
Menace of Morons
#39 - 2013-12-05 12:22:59 UTC
Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:
@ Bloodmyst Ranwar

I'll explain... the title is just one part of a thread.. you should read the official post and preferably the entire topic before you post.

have a nice day sir.


Again, if you think Highsec exploration rewards are bad... explore low sec and null sec. It's a solution to a problem you are whining about.

And thanks, it is a nice day today. Would prefer some rain though :)
Good Posting
Doomheim
#40 - 2013-12-05 12:25:49 UTC
Ok, two things:

1. I don't think you are an explorer yet. True explorers look for goods out of safe space* and they understand that some days are better than others but they always have fun. If you are interested only in isk, running L4s will be better for you (isk wise).

2. The rewards in Hi Sec aren't bad at all, but the space is too crowded. As an explorer myself, I'm encouraging you to get out of Hi Sec. The feeling of accomplishment and the rewards will be greater, but not always. In EvE, sometimes the risks outweight the rewards and you have to live with that. Knowing that your ship will live another day it's a success and tomorrow will be another day with new sites, new people to meet and new opportunities.

*By safe space i mean Hi Sec, pussy renters and other pets in Null Sec.