Ships & Modules

Thats likely to be 175m3 of not capacitor boosters, or other tactical issues - like jumping with cargo expanders on, hoping to get to a location where you can refit.

You refuse to acknowledge the other side completely- with perfect transversal a smaller ship can avoid turret damage 100%, but missiles always hit no matter what the target does. Missiles also have much longer ranges than comparable turrets.

Missiles are fine. It's the CCP dev's who keep changing them who are broken.

I think a reload time on any of CCP Rise ideas of somewhere in the region of 40 months should fix it.

I have given it thought, and it has been suggested earlier. The missile damage application mechanic is just broken. Maybe if we finally get some tracking enhancing modules the formula is somewhat salvageable. But it doesn't make sense from the get go. Im talking about large size guns still having the very real potential to affect small hulls, but missiles struggle to keep up with 1 size smaller forget about 2.
The whole damage modifier concept of the higher average dps (missiles) vs higher potential dps (gunnery) is bankrupt.
Why? Well that is simple you can't create the concept since turrets need to have a respectable damage application instead of a random number generator. Thus you will always end up with gunnery having flexibility well past missiles as it always has been.
A large problem is the fact that several mechanism just do the same versus missiles as against gunnery but without a counter for missiles like flying differently.
You add speed which works vs tracking, but also for it if you use guns. It is a very plain difference in force multiplication from statistics.

All the arguments against missiles I have seen so far are fubar and come from people that don't use missiles but just "dislike" them.
I should've picked up on "missiles are for PvE" much sooner, where speed and signatures are dependable.
I did pick up on it though so I decided to make my main full PvE and buy a character on the marketplace, one that doesn't need 15% short of DOUBLE the support skills to make heavy sized missiles work for worse outcomes.
15x multiplier for target painting and 21x for missile support=36x vs 18x for all of gunnery support, 16x for projectiles as you don't need controlled bursts.
For reference a 2x multiplier is a week at perfect training, 8x a month.Not mentioning that you can get most out of gunnery with a MUCH lower amount of SP invested. Whereas missile support skills are quintessential to basic application since you can't improve application through proper flying AND the force multiplier is higher on missile skills with a lower outcome. Say you take projectiles you get falloff support (trajectory analyses) to 5 and leave optimal at 4 and you're good. Or the other way around for lasers get optimal (sharpshooter) to 5 and leave falloff at lvl 4. The tracking skill "motion prediction" x2 very important vs 2 skills in missiles at 7x multiplier.

I have completely given up on missiles having finished the tracking skills and leaving the rest at lvl 4 besides cruise missiles.
With the marauder changes I gave thought to flying a Golem with the changes but screw it, I won't take any more missiles up the ash.
And I am certainly not putting 15x multiplier into target painting alone and the missile range skills to 5 (x6) which are VERY needed for short ranged missile systems "torpedos" as I don't like like the idea of cruises anemic dps on a golem with bastion n all adding nothing to them.
Biting the bullet and switching to gunnery, I'd rather fly 3 optimal marauders in the end then one missile boat.
Besides with excellent missile skills it would still take less time to get techII large AC and fly a vargur then torpedoes at this point, ridiculous considering I have 27 mill some SP that is a years and a month+, including 2 and a half months in missiles at perfect training speed and more in actual time of-course. I've posted about it here before: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3846978#post3846978

The HM nerf was very similar to rlml, last minute horrible and around for eternity to come.
They also discontinued support for my mac OS, me running a mac mini with a busted dvd drive meant game over.
This was announced POST expansion in basically a Troll post by CCP stating we should essentially be playing on a real computer anyway sucks to be you etc. what'd you expect. They apologized later but the damage was done.
Again, just GIVE UP on missiles I have done the math before in my previous thread. There is no reason to put anymore SP in missiles unless you are 10%-5% away from maxing out sub capital everything in missiles. I'll stick with my rattlesnake, gather SP and get away from missiles all together.

Isn't this the whole reason missiles are fubar, they have 0 synergy with warp scramblers/webs.
If you are out of range of scrambers/webs you are kiting in a semi straight line with guns having awesome tracking, you do this with missiles the only time you will want to be in this position is with small missiles since they have the tracking to be effective outside of web-range against a wide range of ships.
With guns you fight inside of web-range and do well or outside and do well, with missiles you fight inside of web-range or you use small size missiles in which case you probably still do..
So unless you are comfortable with "the missile tree" being light missiles+rockets then yes missiles are fubar.
This is what most missile whining comes from rockets+small missiles and tbh most of the time, it is just bitching because people couldn't win. Since for some reason it is not okay for missiles to ever hard counter something, or ever be on top. The weapon system mechanics further add to the feeling of OP I can't win because what makes it breaks it too. You either have the stats to hit well or you don't, shine or fail with missiles because they're broken. The formula needs changed badly in a manner that missiles need a certain way of flying to be effective or something that adds to it. They should've implemented a common suggestion where if you loose a volume to overkill have it redirect to another target, just to begin to make up for delayed damage application.

Edit: Imho with current missile mechanics you have a very problematic situation when it comes to medium sized missile damage projection vs small, and large to medium and small.

Personally, this is my view on missiles and it would appear a lot of people agree on it:
Frigate and battleship sized launchers are alright.
Rockets -> Great
Light missile launchers -> Low ROF, medium damage, great range. I would say balanced.
Cruise missiles -> Solid
Torpedos -> Somewhat hull dependent but alright, and you can just use cruise missiles instead. :P

Cruiser launcher are the issue.
HAM -> The problem here imo is not so much the launcher, but the ammo. Heavy missiles just need some changes.
HM -> Same as above. I think the launcher works almost alright, but the ammo is just meh. The damage application of the missiles is just rubbish. I think heavy missiles should get somewhat better damage application, and Heavy launchers in general need a DPS bump.

Rapid launchers, both light and heavy: The sustained DPS is extremely low. The fact you can shoot for 50sec and then spend 40 sec reloading is rubbish. The whole hit and run idea is great on paper, except that it doesn't work at all when you're webbed and scrammed. Then you can argue that the wrong launcher was fitted for the situation. In that case I would ask, which other cruiser sized launcher would you use instead? HM and HAM have their own issues, and light launchers just lack the DPS to take down a cruiser. There simply is no alternative.

With the recent passes on T1 ships cruisers have gained a lot of momentum and I like them a lot. They feel viable now. Unfortunately the missile system not so much. We have a great base, but nothing to put on it. I'm even OK with the damage specific bonuses on the Caldari ships. I would like to see it changed to all damage types, but whatever, I can live with it.

The problem I have is that I just don't have a solid launcher to put on my Caracal, Drake, ...

I don't know if this is relevant but traditionally, Gallente and Caldari always had a great war between them. it somehow makes sense for Caldari to develop ships that counter the inherent advantages of Gallente ships. On the other hand, you could always just argue "why don't they just make them to do more damage of the type that REALLY hurts?". That's a good question. Not sure why the Gallente resistance gap isn't getting exploited more. :P

Do you have anything to compare it to though? I don't think you would look at missiles the same way if you used gunnery and applied 100% or close to it to cruisers and frigates. I don't have large gunnery but I get the package through flying sentry boats.

Edit: I am aware that sentries have excellent tracking but they also suffer from being unable to split guns, and dps loss from a hyperactive rate of fire combined with 1 sec server response time. Aside from that you need a decent range for the tracking greatness. Also missiles as stoicfaux showed lose a large chunk of dps to defenders at close ranges. I would tell a newbie to go for maelstrom/vargur today.

Yes - missile users really dont get it. Its like they play WoW inside eve.

Lets compare, 3x gyro/ballistics - nothing else.
Vanilla Cane 720mm arty, EMP: 434 dps @ 15 + 22k

Vanilla Drake Heavy T2, scourge: 322 dps @ 63k

Vanilla Cane 425mm auto, EMP: 518 dps @ 1.5 + 12k

Vanilla Drake HAss T2, scourge: 444 dps @ 20.2k

Missile users want ALL the benefits, but none of the drawbacks. Try autos for crap range, or artillery for crap damage application. I fly a cane, I know to close and web and scram. I close to apply damage. Artillery, I have to maintain range, I cannot close to apply damage. Try tracking a frigate closein with artillery you fucktards.

In a drake - I fit web and painter and scram. I still get better range with assault, better applied damage ALL the time. You DONT NEED TO TRACK, flying a drake is like flying a tonka toy. Or grow some balls and close in, paint, web and scram the target. Thats how a drake applies damage.

And remember - eve is a game for sharing - get some friends who fly ships that complement the missile boat.

not really, missiles are "static" damage. Granted in battle the variables change (transverse, target resistance, sig - boosters, boosts, MWDs) but for the most can be closely calculated. pilot skill does come into account obviously, but much less than people make it out to be since most people are average pilots at best.