These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
123Next pageLast page
 

High Sec POS vs. POCO-- IT BREAKS THE GAME
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
#1 - 2013-12-05 02:00:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Patri Andari
High sec POS has many requirements that force players to grind standings and maintain the structure not only with fuel but starbase charters (taxes to the sov NPC). It offers little to no passive income, but can field passive defense. If you want to derive income from others they must join your (research) alliance but can not partake in all the beneifits, namely invention. Also there is a limit to how high security a POS can be erected

High sec POCO requires you place a structure and rates after blowing up an NPC.Ther is no passive defense, BUT anyone can use it (regardless of relationship like joining an alliance) and provide you with unlimited passive income. There is no fuel cost .... NO FUEL COST...and no need to even buy starbase charters. In fact ALL taxes to the sov. NPC are paid by usersCool As far as I know, with this last expansion, they can be erected in any high sec system regardless security. NO STANDINGS GRIND REQUIRED!


Should not there be:

1. A requirement of standings with SOV NPC faction to erect a high sec POCO?
2. A requirement to pay taxes (charters) to the SOV NPC?
3. Some form of maintenance costs (fuel) for their use?


I like the idea of players owning these entities but it makes little sense to introduce them this way while POS owners have such heavy burdens with such limited rewards

Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character. And character is everything. - author unknown
Jill Chastot
WE FORM BL0B Inc.
Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2013-12-05 02:05:07 UTC
Shooting Structures is not fun.
Doing missions suck.

Why do you hate people that just want to see the universe burn?

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=298596&find=unread OATHS wants you. Come to the WH "Safety in eve is the greatest fallacy you will ever encounter. Once you accept this you will truely enjoy this game."
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
#3 - 2013-12-05 02:09:16 UTC
Jill Chastot wrote:
Shooting Structures is not fun.
Doing missions suck.

Why do you hate people that just want to see the universe burn?



Can I put you down as one who would support removal of the standings, starbase charters, and fuel costs requirements for POS?

Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character. And character is everything. - author unknown
Cypherous
Liberty Rogues
Aprilon Dynasty
#4 - 2013-12-05 02:47:22 UTC
Patri Andari wrote:
Jill Chastot wrote:
Shooting Structures is not fun.
Doing missions suck.

Why do you hate people that just want to see the universe burn?



Can I put you down as one who would support removal of the standings, starbase charters, and fuel costs requirements for POS?


POCO's cannot help you bypass lab limitations in busy systems, POCO's cannot provide you with construction facilities, these are things a POS gives and requires the standings to do so, POCO's only generate passive income if people use them, there is no requirement to do so it just costs slightly more, if you build a POCO in the wrong place you might never actually make any money from it at all, no to mention that a POCO is a much more interesting target for war dec corps, it has no defenses and its loss affects not only the owning corp but also any users who happened to still have materials stored in it, worth noting is that only the owning corp gets an indication that the POCO was attacked not all the people using it, not to mention that should you need to move to a different system you cant just dismantle your POCO and take it with you like you can a POS :)

They are 2 very different structures with very different uses and very different costs and as such have very different requirements, i dont own any POCO's but i see no reason to change them from their current design, do you have any valid reasons as to why these 2 very different structures should be treated the same way?
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5 - 2013-12-05 02:56:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
There are uses for POSes outside of highsec, arguably their primary uses. And these very well warrant the fuel costs.

As far as standing requirements, meh, personally I think they're kinda dumb. But it kind of goes with the idea that highsec is (so far) NPC controlled; if you don't want NPCs to decide who gets to put up POSes in their space, get out of highsec.

None of this breaks the game, an definitely none of this BREAKS THE GAME. Your hyperbole achieves nothing other than making you look dumb.
Paranoid Loyd
#6 - 2013-12-05 03:04:00 UTC
Your OP does not at all address the title, how exactly is it breaking the game?

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#7 - 2013-12-05 03:10:03 UTC
Patri Andari wrote:
High sec POCO requires you place a structure and rates after blowing up an NPC.Ther is no passive defense, BUT anyone can use it (regardless of relationship like joining an alliance) and provide you with unlimited passive income. There is no fuel cost .... NO FUEL COST...and no need to even buy starbase charters. In fact ALL taxes to the sov. NPC are paid by usersCool As far as I know, with this last expansion, they can be erected in any high sec system regardless security. NO STANDINGS GRIND REQUIRED!


On the contrary, there is a standings requirement. Whatever standings requirement you choose to enforce. Similarly, you're free to enforce whatever income limits you choose.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Herbinator d'Arcadie
Arkadian Knight
#8 - 2013-12-05 03:27:41 UTC
Patri Andari wrote:
High sec POS ...
1. A requirement of standings with SOV NPC faction to erect a high sec POCO?
2. A requirement to pay taxes (charters) to the SOV NPC?
3. Some form of maintenance costs (fuel) for their use? ...

1. There should ABSOLUTELY be a required standing. It is essentially a free planet in SOV space, after all.
There is no way to explain pirate takeover of h-sec planets in roleplay parlance.
It was a mistake (hindsight) to implement h-sec POCOs without this. Moon POSs require standing!

2. SOV NPC taxes ... sure, why not?

3. Maintenance? Charters(?), maybe, so abandoned POCOs can revert to InterbusOCOs.

"Block" pigs. Refuse to fly with them.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#9 - 2013-12-05 03:29:48 UTC
Patri Andari wrote:
High sec POS has many requirements that force players to grind standings and maintain the structure not only with fuel but starbase charters (taxes to the sov NPC). It offers little to no passive income, but can field passive defense. If you want to derive income from others they must join your (research) alliance but can not partake in all the beneifits, namely invention. Also there is a limit to how high security a POS can be erected

High sec POCO requires you place a structure and rates after blowing up an NPC.Ther is no passive defense, BUT anyone can use it (regardless of relationship like joining an alliance) and provide you with unlimited passive income. There is no fuel cost .... NO FUEL COST...and no need to even buy starbase charters. In fact ALL taxes to the sov. NPC are paid by usersCool As far as I know, with this last expansion, they can be erected in any high sec system regardless security. NO STANDINGS GRIND REQUIRED!


Should not there be:

1. A requirement of standings with SOV NPC faction to erect a high sec POCO?
2. A requirement to pay taxes (charters) to the SOV NPC?
3. Some form of maintenance costs (fuel) for their use?


I like the idea of players owning these entities but it makes little sense to introduce them this way while POS owners have such heavy burdens with such limited rewards


The cost of POS fuel is reflected in the margins of the items you make with them. They are quite rarely reinforced or destroyed - my first highsec pos lasted until I desubbed it ran out of fuel and became an obvious target.

POCOs that are making money -will- get reinforced and destroyed, so the lacking fuel cost is easily made up for by the greater likelyhood you'll need to defend it, and the greater likelyhood you'll lose it if you don't.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#10 - 2013-12-05 03:30:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
1. No, because these things are meant to be ubiquitous and easy to set up rather than another reason to have to endure the horrible slog of mission-grinding. The less value missions have in regulating the availability of completely unrelated activities the better… in fact standings gain should probably be removed from missions completely.

2. No, because that's not really something that any kind of installation does and also because it's meant to be a money mover rather than a money sink.

3. No, because they're not meant to be item sinks either and because players are supposed to be able to field bajillions of them without going insane from doing fuel logistics.

They're not POSes; they share none of the mechanics or functions of POSes; they have a completely different purpose than POSes. They're to POSes what star gates are to stations: just because both hang around in space and can be docked with doesn't mean they are supposed to work the same in any way.

Two completely different things working completely differently doesn't in any way “break the game".
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#11 - 2013-12-05 03:33:49 UTC
Herbinator d'Arcadie wrote:

There is no way to explain pirate takeover of h-sec planets in roleplay parlance.



oh right because the mafia never ever had front companies.

and -10 standing pirates are defending POCOS in highsec, when anyone can engage them freely at any time. Sure I believe you.
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
#12 - 2013-12-05 04:30:30 UTC
The funtionality of a POCO is quite different from a POS I agree. To overstate the differences is disingenuous though.. It is a structure erected (in this case) for a corporation in high security space for (primarily) the generation of corporation assets.

Until now, this has gone hand in hand with the requirement for standings and taxes. I am all for a system that does away with this for a high sec POCO, but I have seen no reason why high security POS should still require greater effort.

Would be interesting to hear anyone argue why their is a need for disparate treatment, I woulld welcome such a well thought and reasoned arguement.

Up til now it seems like the only view is " they are different cause..."Question

POCO as they are stand to be the most passive income in the game.

Remember datacore nerf?

What is the justification for a high sec structure that requires no maintenance at all and no standings to erect yet can generate unlimited passive income? Please do not tell me the fact it must be defended is all.

Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character. And character is everything. - author unknown
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-12-05 04:39:07 UTC
Patri Andari wrote:
Please do not tell me the fact it must be defended is all.



This would be a considerable expense, if not for the fact that high sec is primarily populated by players like you.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
#14 - 2013-12-05 04:43:39 UTC
Tippia wrote:
1.

They're not POSes; they share none of the mechanics or functions of POSes; they have a completely different purpose than POSes. They're to POSes what star gates are to stations: just because both hang around in space and can be docked with doesn't mean they are supposed to work the same in any way.

Two completely different things working completely differently doesn't in any way “break the game".


Completely different?

Overstate much?

Are not they both structures that (in this case) are anchored in NPC sov space. (same)

Are not they both intended to (primarily) generate profit from other capsuleers. (same)

You have been around long enough to know that POS owners have been begging for a way to open their research slots to the general public for profit. Of course you also know game mechanics do not allow this, (yet*) but if they did certainly those people selling high sec corporations and the current owners of high sec POS would have a more seasoned claim to such passive income than those who never had to worry much about standings and fuel.

Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character. And character is everything. - author unknown
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#15 - 2013-12-05 04:43:46 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Patri Andari wrote:
Please do not tell me the fact it must be defended is all.



This would be a considerable expense, if not for the fact that high sec is primarily populated by players like you.

Don't worry, there are plenty of players willing to provide content to highsec, even if they do not reside there.

OP, if you think POCOs are purely passive income, set up a couple. You'll see how much "passive" and how much "income" they are.
Malak Alraheem
Doomheim
#16 - 2013-12-05 04:45:50 UTC
Other than it sounds like a whine because someone missed the great Interbus bash of 2013, it really is not that big of a deal.

Your argument is missing the rest of the story. By your logic there should also be standings needed to even do PI on planets as well as the need to fuel the command centers. How dare any player be allowed to even set up on a planet and tinker with PI before they have done endless grinding, paid charters, and bought fuel?

Please give it a rest. It is a different game mechanic and it works just fine. Unlike the datacore issue (which is still free money BTW, they just taxed it basically) this is somethings that someone CAN take away from you if they want to. However, in most cases, the cost of doing so isn't going to give you a worthwhile return on your investment in the near term. There isn't a lot of isk to come from most of the high-sec planets, they are a limited resource and a competitive market.
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2013-12-05 04:45:51 UTC
I think Goons POCO'ed OPs factory planet.Lol

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
#18 - 2013-12-05 04:47:24 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Patri Andari wrote:
Please do not tell me the fact it must be defended is all.



This would be a considerable expense, if not for the fact that high sec is primarily populated by players like you.


Gratz to Space Llama Industries on their new null sec holdings.

Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character. And character is everything. - author unknown
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
#19 - 2013-12-05 04:48:14 UTC
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
I think Goons POCO'ed OPs factory planet.Lol


Sorry m8 I do not PI

Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character. And character is everything. - author unknown
MadMuppet
Critical Mass Inc
#20 - 2013-12-05 04:52:29 UTC
Patri Andari wrote:
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
I think Goons POCO'ed OPs factory planet.Lol


Sorry m8 I do not PI


Wait, so you are complaining about a mechanic that you don't invest in?

This message brought to you by Experience(tm). When common sense fails you, experience will come to the rescue. Experience(tm) from the makers of CONCORD.

"If you are part of the problem, you will be nerfed." -MadMuppet
123Next pageLast page