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A new war should we get out of the cluster? (spinoff of the next or last frontier thread.)
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Cuci Cairi
#21 - 2013-12-04 16:57:10 UTC
This is one of those topics that seems rather pointless until something actually happens. We have no idea what would happen, what will happen, or what can happen. Live in the present.
Anslo
Scope Works
#22 - 2013-12-04 17:57:25 UTC
You'd fine wrecks and some busted stations, maybe planetside salvage if they got that far.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#23 - 2013-12-04 19:09:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Makoto Priano wrote:
Hakatain-haan: do Sansha's wormholes require a cynosural beacon? Because I believe the answer is 'no,' but if I'm mistaken and you could provide a citation...?


The operating principles of Sansha's wormholes are not known to me. That being said, what he's generating appear to be similar in format to natural wormholes, which don't require a cynosural field, as I explained in my original comment:

Stitcher wrote:
3: The field stabilizes the wormhole connection long enough for a ship, or several ships, to come through.

[...]

The reason for this has to do with how you stabilize a wormhole. The "natural" wormholes used to get into and navigate Phase Two Space genuinely do have zero internal length, which is why they look so much different, and also why they're unstable, and collapse within a day or so of their formation, or are disrupted by matter passing through them. Artificial wormholes are given some internal length to give the fluctuations that build up with time and matter transit the chance to dissipate. The effect's not perfect and stargates need to close and re-open their wormholes periodically, but doing so is the work of seconds.

Anyway, because they have internal length, these wormholes need stabilizing at both ends, otherwise end B collapses very quickly, with disastrous consequences for anything attempting to traverse the internal length of the bridge at the time, as well as for anything that was near to End A at the moment when the remains of the traversing object are squeezed out of the collapsing event horizon as a burst of gamma radiation and high-energy particles. Cynosural fields provide that stabilization.


I don't currently know of any way to generate such a wormhole from a single end. Obviously it's possible, I just don't know how it's done, nor what the practical limitations are on its range and mass transit capacity.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Slaver Filth
Council of Apostles
#24 - 2013-12-04 19:29:01 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Makoto Priano wrote:
Hakatain-haan: do Sansha's wormholes require a cynosural beacon? Because I believe the answer is 'no,' but if I'm mistaken and you could provide a citation...?


The operating principles of Sansha's wormholes are not known to me. That being said, what he's generating appear to be similar in formate to natural wormholes, which don't require a cynosural field, as I explained in my original comment:

Stitcher wrote:
3: The field stabilizes the wormhole connection long enough for a ship, or several ships, to come through.

[...]

The reason for this has to do with how you stabilize a wormhole. The "natural" wormholes used to get into and navigate Phase Two Space genuinely do have zero internal length, which is why they look so much different, and also why they're unstable, and collapse within a day or so of their formation, or are disrupted by matter passing through them. Artificial wormholes are given some internal length to give the fluctuations that build up with time and matter transit the chance to dissipate. The effect's not perfect and stargates need to close and re-open their wormholes periodically, but doing so is the work of seconds.

Anyway, because they have internal length, these wormholes need stabilizing at both ends, otherwise end B collapses very quickly, with disastrous consequences for anything attempting to traverse the internal length of the bridge at the time, as well as for anything that was near to End A at the moment when the remains of the traversing object are squeezed out of the collapsing event horizon as a burst of gamma radiation and high-energy particles. Cynosural fields provide that stabilization.

Far too many capsuleers have lost the ability to see beyond Concord and the Empires they knit together. Every bit of technology does not come from Concord. Constellation Holders in the Amarr Empire for example control systems with multiple planets populated by billions of baseliners.

Do you really think we share all of our technological advances with everyone?

Sansha wormhole generation is proof there is more then just one way to do things in EVE.

The official history of the cluster is just that, an official history, many things are not included, many things are still held secret.

Humanity in the cluster is much more then just what Concord and the Empires admit to.

We create, innovate, and explore. If you are limited to what officially exists great I hope that keeps working for you, but some of us see more, do more, and keep some of the most groundbreaking technological advances close to our vest.

"Child of Amarr seek not warmth in our cold hearts, we are the old serpent of New Eden and you must do your part, revel in our viciousness, we rule by venom and our strike is merciless, "
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#25 - 2013-12-04 19:43:54 UTC
Your mastery of the fine art of blending the bloody obvious with pretentious condescension is breathtaking.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#26 - 2013-12-04 19:44:23 UTC
Ah, pardon-- this is what I get for skimming. My apologies, Hakatain-haan. Still, it stands that if the Sansha are able to generate wormholes large enough to transit a supercarrier, then they are able to generate wormholes superior to the natural formation. Further, we know that they are either able to bypass cynosural jamming fields, or that they don't require a cynosural beacon to form a wormhole. That we don't know how this is achieved doesn't mean that the technology is beyond our grasp; merely that it isn't available to us at this point in time.

In brief, while I appreciate your fire on the topic, let's understand that our grasp of theory is a functional one. We know what is practicable, but not necessarily what would be theoretically possible given technological advances. This is why there's so much interest in these new research facilities; we know groundbreaking work is being done, we know it's likely that we will witness some revolutionary advancement of the technology, but we also don't have the theoretical grounding to understand where exactly that will lead us.

This is why PRIAN is participating in SYNE's venture, and why I've been having my associates scour any facility they find.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Yu Tasogare
Doomheim
#27 - 2013-12-04 19:58:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Yu Tasogare
truth be told, these new research facilites interest me.. of course, as a new capsuleer, getting involved in such matters would be far too risky at the moment, for multiple reasons including CONCORDs little statement "Forbidding" us from going into these sites. I say "forbidding" because we all know full well that at the very least, the capsuleer empires in nullsec (CFC included) would most likely say a big "Screw your rules" to CONCORD and partake in the forbidden fruit that are these research facilites... and considering that they have a massive amount of supercapital ships and 1000s of battle hardened capsuleer pilots, the only way I see CONCORD actually being able to enforce these restrictions on the research facilites is in the same manner Sansha's Nation was crushed with all four empires working together and being merciless... which has a very low chance of happening at this moment considering they're at each others throats at the moment which Diana Kim and her superior can attest to...
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-12-04 20:03:43 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:
while I appreciate your fire on the topic, let's understand that our grasp of theory is a functional one.


The question as given was "can [a jump drive] lock on to planetary or a sun's gravity well for jump calibration? "

To which the answer is "no".

That answer is never going to be wrong because jump drives based on the current technological principles simply cannot do that and never will. Any technology capable of doing that would not be a jump drive by the current definition of the term. It might yield an identical functional outcome, it might even be called a jump drive, but jump drives as we presently know and identify them cannot, and will never be able to do that by definition.

that's not to say we won't invent some alternative in the future that could, just that such a technology would not meet the current definition of a jump drive.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#29 - 2013-12-04 20:27:45 UTC
Fair enough.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2013-12-04 22:33:22 UTC
If it becomes possible to leave the cluster, and there is a specific destination to go to, then we will do what human beings have been doing since the dawn of time.

Make a mad dash to this new world, kill whoever was there before us, claim it as our own, and try to kill anyone that arrives after us.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#31 - 2013-12-04 23:07:44 UTC
I amend my original remark:

Hydrogen, rocks, and warfare.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#32 - 2013-12-05 00:28:47 UTC
Warfare in a form of colliding rocks.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#33 - 2013-12-05 00:45:00 UTC
I once read a discussion of planetary bombardment that detailed the inefficiency of using asteroids to destroy targets. In brief, the discussion went, it took more energy and materiel to locate an appropriate asteroid and propel it to the target than it did to simply bombard the target with missiles.

Still, if one is able to retrieve the drive units...

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#34 - 2013-12-06 18:25:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Claudia Osyn
Makoto Priano wrote:
The simple truth is that we can't possibly know. We could jump into a mausoleum, a grave of the ancients. We could jump into the true Sleeper home systems, not those isolated as a cancer. We could find fabled, mythical Terra, full of gods and ancient powers.

Odds are, though, there will be plenty of hydrogen. And rocks. One can't forget the rocks.

It's useless to theorize unless or until we're able to escape the boundaries of New Eden.


I did an experiment on theoretical speculation once. See I took this furrier and put it in a box with a vial of poison and a Geiger counter attached to a hammer that would break the vial if the Geiger counter detects any decay........

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Caviar Liberta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2013-12-07 05:31:00 UTC
Yu Tasogare wrote:
ok, what would all of you think would happen if we got out of the cluster? I personally would think that both expansion of the empires and the null sec "empires" would happen with the null sec empires of course going to war with each other. if and when this happened, it would undoubtadly become a war that makes the fight between goonswarm and BoB look like a schoolyard fight.


I see 2 options if we were able to expand outside of the current known space.

Either there is show of force to try ensure any progression into new space is done as safely and openly as possible.

The other option is to do it covertly as possible and with minimal investment of resources for maximum return of anything gained.
Caviar Liberta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2013-12-07 05:38:42 UTC
Stitcher wrote:


No, they can't. You see, a cynosural field isn't just a fancy and high-powered way of saying "coo-ee! over here!", it's actually a vital component in the creation of a stable artificial wormhole, designed to do three things:

1: the cynosural field generator creates a localized quantum field fluctuation which forms one end of a wormhole. This distortion "tunnels" through extra-dimensional spacetime to meet the other end of the wormhole which is being generated by the jump drive or bridge.


So however improbable it might be, there is a slim chance that a jump drive might be able to lock onto a naturally occurring wormhole creating an alternate connection point to it?
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