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[Rubicon 1.1] Sisters of EVE Battleship

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James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#581 - 2013-12-04 20:17:04 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
Oh and screaming "It WONT GET IT", without actually saying why does not make the wish not come true :-)

Gotta love Goons :-P

It should be pretty self evident as to why. If any battleship should have covert ops cloak it would be the battleships that are specialized for it. Not some random faction ship. Same with the jump drive, portal array, and covert cyno.

Bubble immunity is just ridiculous. You're basically asking for the ship to have the ability to escape almost all but the most prepared camps with impunity.

Bastion is ridiculous too. They just came out with a line of T2 (read: specialized) ships specifically for the purpose of using the module. The purpose is defeated if you start granting that ability to other ships.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#582 - 2013-12-04 20:17:30 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
It's not getting a jump drive.
It's not getting a covert cloak.
It's not getting bubble immunity.
It's not getting covert jump portal.
It's not getting covert cyno.
It's not getting bastion capability.

Please stop asking for these things. None of these are workable ideas.
Please also stop asking for:

A logistics battleship. Logistics battleships are just a terrible idea for several reasons, mainly the fact that they're slow, would have to have short range to avoid trampling on actual specialized logistics ships, and lock too slowly to be of actual use in anything more than a very small engagement.

An exploration battleship. There's literally no reason why you should ever try exploring in a battleship, no matter what its bonuses may be. It's too slow both in and out of warp to be effective at this role at all.

I'll add that these latter two are also exactly why the original proposal completely sucks, especially considering not enough of a bonus is given to either to make it useful for these roles at all.

The ship isn't a "jack of all trades, master of none." It's a "useful for nothing, shiny new ship to spin in our hangars".

People will ask for that anyway Blink

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude
Anys Thes'Realin
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#583 - 2013-12-04 20:17:41 UTC
I saw somebody suggest giving the Nestor the ability to fit a Capital Remote Armor Repairer earlier. I love the idea, as it'd be something a little different for the ship.

However, looking at some numbers I think it'd be too powerful. With the proposed 50% RAR amount, it'd sitll be repping nearly x3 the amount of armor, and even limiting it to only one per ship i think would make it a little too powerful. You could put a penalty on the ship saying, "75% Reduction in Capacitor Requirements but a 50% reduction in Repair amount" but at that point it'd be easier just to stick with the Large Remote Armor Repairers and bonus them appropriately.

My EVElopedia roleplaying profile, last updated February 23rd, 2014: http://tinyurl.com/nfazlch I support having more clothes for our characters!  http://tinyurl.com/kpafjh2
Andrea Keuvo
Rusty Pricks
#584 - 2013-12-04 20:17:42 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
It's not getting a jump drive.
It's not getting a covert cloak.
It's not getting bubble immunity.
It's not getting covert jump portal.
It's not getting covert cyno.
It's not getting bastion capability.

Please stop asking for these things. None of these are workable ideas.
Please also stop asking for:

A logistics battleship. Logistics battleships are just a terrible idea for several reasons, mainly the fact that they're slow, would have to have short range to avoid trampling on actual specialized logistics ships, and lock too slowly to be of actual use in anything more than a very small engagement.

An exploration battleship. There's literally no reason why you should ever try exploring in a battleship, no matter what its bonuses may be. It's too slow both in and out of warp to be effective at this role at all.

I'll add that these latter two are also exactly why the original proposal completely sucks, especially considering not enough of a bonus is given to either to make it useful for these roles at all.

The ship isn't a "jack of all trades, master of none." It's a "useful for nothing, shiny new ship to spin in our hangars".


This. At its pricetag it needs something special to make anyone even consider using it. Bonus to cloaked speed like blops BS has is the minimum really. Being able to deploy 6 or 7 sentries could be good, or at least makes it better than a 150m isk Dominix.
Hatsumi Kobayashi
Perkone
Caldari State
#585 - 2013-12-04 20:18:02 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Last, I'm seeing some complaints or concerns that it feels kind of all over the place. This is definitely intentional. In the posts for the Stratios and Astero I think I mentioned that one of the designs we are trying to emulate is the Gnosis. Ships capable of doing many things but being the absolute best for few. The hacking and probing bonuses are a good example of that here. We didn't choose them over something else that would make the ship a powerful fighter, we just included them to give the ship more options.


It's certainly a fitting choice for a SoE ship to be able to do many things, but the current proposition for the battleship has it doing things that don't fit a battleship hull at all. Someone ITT previously mentioned it already, but exploration requires you to move around many different and potentially hostile systems to find what you're after. The Nestor has a low mass so yeah okay, it can sort of do it wormholes, but it's so otherwise limited in maneuverability that I'd rather take a Prototype Cloak plated Drake instead. It's not capable of doing something if no one bothers trying to do it because it just doesn't work, does it? Might as well give it a 50% Spacecooking role bonus.

It's in that sense that many people, me included, believe that it's all over the place.

No sig.
Fitz Muller
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#586 - 2013-12-04 20:19:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Fitz Muller
As a wormhole dweller, let me add my view to the range vs amount argument. At the moment we use remote repair ravens, remote repair dominix and remote repair tengu. None of these get range bonus and they are all very successful. When we run T3 fleets we use scimitars and our damage dealers are able to move more. I am glad to see the 50% repair ammount bonus and not the range.

Having said that, I think it dramatically changes the game for null/low blob fleets and nobody likes blob fleets even now. But they are expensive, so killing a blob of those will be more rewarding as well.

The mass idea is perfect, well done.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#587 - 2013-12-04 20:20:36 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
It's not getting a jump drive.
It's not getting a covert cloak.
It's not getting bubble immunity.
It's not getting covert jump portal.
It's not getting covert cyno.
It's not getting bastion capability.

Please stop asking for these things. None of these are workable ideas.
Please also stop asking for:

A logistics battleship. Logistics battleships are just a terrible idea for several reasons, mainly the fact that they're slow, would have to have short range to avoid trampling on actual specialized logistics ships, and lock too slowly to be of actual use in anything more than a very small engagement.

An exploration battleship. There's literally no reason why you should ever try exploring in a battleship, no matter what its bonuses may be. It's too slow both in and out of warp to be effective at this role at all.

I'll add that these latter two are also exactly why the original proposal completely sucks, especially considering not enough of a bonus is given to either to make it useful for these roles at all.

The ship isn't a "jack of all trades, master of none." It's a "useful for nothing, shiny new ship to spin in our hangars".



I dunno thinking about getting a pair of these to do 10/10 complexes.

Though still think the ship needs an sma and cha with a clone vat bay.

Maybe 100k m3 for the sma and 20k for the cha.

I would get some nice use out of it in Russian claimed space when they are all asleep.

Park my srat in the ship and setup a jump clone.

I glad ccp designed a ship that has no real use for blobbing.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Tom-A-Hawk
Big Bad Bulls
#588 - 2013-12-04 20:21:19 UTC
Bad and boring design, change those scanning and data bonuses, they're useless
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#589 - 2013-12-04 20:23:25 UTC
Tom-A-Hawk wrote:
Bad and boring design, change those scanning and data bonuses, they're useless


Agreed make the ship an escort carrier designed to compliment the srat and astrios.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#590 - 2013-12-04 20:27:31 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Andrea Keuvo wrote:
This. At its pricetag it needs something special to make anyone even consider using it. Bonus to cloaked speed like blops BS has is the minimum really. Being able to deploy 6 or 7 sentries could be good, or at least makes it better than a 150m isk Dominix.

I refer you back to my original proposal, which had 100/600 bandwidth/drone bay and could use 10 bonused drones, with the blackops cloaked speed bonus. 10 hammerhead IIs with the 10% damage bonus per level at level 5 does 475 DPS, which increases to 700 with two DDAs. I deliberately chose to avoid sentries here for two reasons: sentry ships are boring and we have plenty of those already, and because scout drones are easy to counter in blobs (smartbombs). You could increase the bandwidth to 125 I suppose which would allow you to use 5 sentries, but I'm not entirely sure if that's a good idea. If the proposed damage here is too much the bonus could be scaled back to 7.5% per level or even 5% per level.

As far as the blops bonus goes, the full bonus may be overpowered. Maybe a scaled back bonus of 500% or even 375% would be a better idea.

You could even do away with the laser bonuses entirely and this would still be a good ship.

Not only would this make the ship worth flying, but also impractical to field in blobs (one of the main balance concerns) and more importantly it would be unique and fun.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Atkins Friendly
Spaceship Renegades
Casually Hardcore
#591 - 2013-12-04 20:30:22 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Tom-A-Hawk wrote:
Bad and boring design, change those scanning and data bonuses, they're useless


Agreed make the ship an escort carrier designed to compliment the srat and astrios.



And can we please get a new video :)

I think we can all agree that the Rubicon videos showing the SoE ships getting popped easily kinda leaves a bad taste. Show this BS stepping up and kicking ass for the Sister's sake.
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#592 - 2013-12-04 20:30:54 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Phoenix Jones wrote:
Oh and screaming "It WONT GET IT", without actually saying why does not make the wish not come true :-)

Gotta love Goons :-P

It should be pretty self evident as to why. If any battleship should have covert ops cloak it would be the battleships that are specialized for it. Not some random faction ship. Same with the jump drive, portal array, and covert cyno.

Bubble immunity is just ridiculous. You're basically asking for the ship to have the ability to escape almost all but the most prepared camps with impunity.

Bastion is ridiculous too. They just came out with a line of T2 (read: specialized) ships specifically for the purpose of using the module. The purpose is defeated if you start granting that ability to other ships.


Oh I actually agree with everything you said, minus the bastion module. I have a different view regarding this ship and that module (I went pretty in-depth on it a few posts ago). That is solely assuming that the Nestor becomes a logistic's platform (which is a very dramatic change from what it does currently).

But to sum it up. I agree with you on the following:

It's not getting a jump drive.
It's not getting a covert cloak.
It's not getting bubble immunity.
It's not getting covert jump portal.
It's not getting covert cyno.

Excuse me if I overstepped and implied I didn't (Looking back seems I did).

Yaay!!!!
Victor Maximus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#593 - 2013-12-04 20:33:29 UTC
Lina Miaoke wrote:
Makes me sad that we probably wont see a capital ship line up from SoE. Sad


Probably a good thing. A capital with scanning and virus strength bonuses would make peoples heads explode.Ugh
Quinn Corvez
Perkone
Caldari State
#594 - 2013-12-04 20:36:37 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Phoenix Jones wrote:

We have enough cloaks. I don't see the real benefit or need for it. I'd love to hear the reason why besides (getting from point a to b in low/null).

Whats the upgrade reason for an explorer to jump into a battleship capable of it?


Getting from point A to B in null/low is precisely the reason why this ship needs a covert cloak.

It is intended to be a exploration / support ship. Without a cloak there is no reason for anyone to fly these ships outside of high sec. All we are left with is the a logistics ship with a worse rep range that a T1 logistics frigate. Even if it had better range it's still just another logistics ship to add to the other 16 that already exist in game.

The argument that this ship should not have a cloak is an arbitrary one. People said the original Stratios would be OP, so CCP changed it to reduce its damage capabilities. Why can't the same be done with a battle ship?

If CCP reduced the number of turret slots (shouldn't have any to begin with) then the ship would be perfectly fine with a cloak. We would finally have a cloaky logistics ship with the added benefit of being able to dish-out okay drone damage (nowhere near as good as a domi).

... Instead we are going to sit here arguing, postion our stupid ideas for 150+ pages and when the ship finally gets released, it will be yet another uninspired, overpriced toy that brings nothing meaningful to EvE gameplay.


Pretty much sums the issue up.

Either it gets a cloak or CCP need to completely rethink the bonuses.
Rio Bravo
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#595 - 2013-12-04 20:36:56 UTC
My conclusion: I like it the way it is! Only thing I would consider to help it in its role is maybe is having a Jump Drive. Being JD responsive without covert ops cloak would fully equip it for it's role in space. Otherwise...I like whats proposed. The graphics design is awesome too by the way, I like it. Very 2001 Space Odyssey.

“You see, in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend: Those with loaded guns and those who dig. I dig.”  - Clint Eastwood, misquote.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#596 - 2013-12-04 20:37:23 UTC
Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Last, I'm seeing some complaints or concerns that it feels kind of all over the place. This is definitely intentional. In the posts for the Stratios and Astero I think I mentioned that one of the designs we are trying to emulate is the Gnosis. Ships capable of doing many things but being the absolute best for few. The hacking and probing bonuses are a good example of that here. We didn't choose them over something else that would make the ship a powerful fighter, we just included them to give the ship more options.


It's certainly a fitting choice for a SoE ship to be able to do many things, but the current proposition for the battleship has it doing things that don't fit a battleship hull at all. Someone ITT previously mentioned it already, but exploration requires you to move around many different and potentially hostile systems to find what you're after. The Nestor has a low mass so yeah okay, it can sort of do it wormholes, but it's so otherwise limited in maneuverability that I'd rather take a Prototype Cloak plated Drake instead. It's not capable of doing something if no one bothers trying to do it because it just doesn't work, does it? Might as well give it a 50% Spacecooking role bonus.

It's in that sense that many people, me included, believe that it's all over the place.

Yeah. When people say "it's all over the place" they're not saying "this ship will be alright for these things", they're saying "it's not even worth using this ship to do these things at all".

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Andrea Keuvo
Rusty Pricks
#597 - 2013-12-04 20:41:33 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hi hi

I haven't been in the office today so sorry for the break in communication. I'm still not in actually, so I don't have time to go into tons of depth here but I wanted to address a few of the trends I see so far in the feedback.

First, I think we should get some kind of range bonus on the reps. 100% sounds about right, but we need to talk about this as a team before anything gets committed to. I'll get back to you once we can figure out where to go.

Second, It's really not getting a covert cloak . This is an extremely powerful capability and it's possible that it should stay off limits for battleships completely. On top of that, if there was going to be a covert battleship, black ops is where we need to start. We will be looking at them for a balance pass eventually, they are one of the remaining classes that haven't gotten their tiericide pass yet, and we can approach this topic when that happens.

Last, I'm seeing some complaints or concerns that it feels kind of all over the place. This is definitely intentional. In the posts for the Stratios and Astero I think I mentioned that one of the designs we are trying to emulate is the Gnosis. Ships capable of doing many things but being the absolute best for few. The hacking and probing bonuses are a good example of that here. We didn't choose them over something else that would make the ship a powerful fighter, we just included them to give the ship more options.

I'll be back in the office tomorrow and I'll catch up on the thread fully and try to cover anything big that I missed here.



Maybe we should go about this another way. Maybe you can post what roles/uses you envisioned this ship having and we can propose ships that can perform the same functions as well or better at a significantly lower cost. If you can't come up with some unique role/use for this ship we go back to the drawing board?

Also, the concept art is fugly please tell me there will be significant changes. As it is now it is not only useless but horrible to look at while you are spinning it.
S4nn4
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#598 - 2013-12-04 20:41:46 UTC
role = bait ?

For anything else, there are better (and more cost effective) ships.
But as bait... even a freighter pilot would attack! My fingers itch for F1 just by looking at it.
Candente
Navy Veteran Club
#599 - 2013-12-04 20:42:33 UTC
Just reiterating what's been said so far: This ship has many bonuses in to many different areas. The bonus should be tailored to a clear role this ship supposed to fulfill that no other ships currently can.

For example, remove all exploration bonus because without a cloak, there is no point.

This ship should be a mini carrier given its role in RR. Some ideas to consider:

  • Remove all turret/missile hardpoints/bonuses. No jumping ability to keep it from becoming OP.
  • At least 2x the normal rep range while sacrificing rep amount. Bonus to drone repping amount.
  • Fitting service and ship hanger (maybe half of an Orca's) for fleet and corp members.
  • Creative abilities regarding drones. ie. Module that can passively repair drones that are in drone bay, or increase number of drones can be fielded.


Along with a low mass, only then a ship like this that cost over 2 bil ISK can be considered useful in wspace pve, primarily in lower class systems where caps can't be used.
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#600 - 2013-12-04 20:46:01 UTC
I think we just gave CCP Rise a hell of a lot of feedback :-).

I think the General Jist is... Re-imagine.

Yaay!!!!