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On Minmatar Cultural Intolerance
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Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#21 - 2013-09-05 04:39:17 UTC
Matar Ronin wrote:
]By the definition of prime fiction you state here in what different light does it portray the Caldari? I think the intolerance of the "State" is just as restrictive as the intolerance of the "Tribe" in prime fiction. But let's just dump on the Minmatar, because it's fashionable to do so.

I wonder why seemingly intelligent, seemingly not bigoted players are so quick to buy into prime fiction that casts the "Dark" people as tribal inferiors and their "Not Dark Cult Slavers" as the shiny golden vessels of progress and religious zeal. I do not hear many singing the praises of the Sansha while deriding the constant warfare engaged in by the mostly non-cyborg races of the four empires.

To be honest I doubt if the Icelandic lads who created the EVE lore and authorize the prime fiction have had much real life experience with "Dark" people and unfortunately for us all they slipped into an easily acceptable stereotype for their largely white male base demographic. It is a shame that such an insulting premise has become an essential element of the game, truly an embarrassing shame.


Calm down, cowboy.

The discussion is about "Minmatar Cultural Intolerance;" you need not bring the Caldari's intolerance into this because you feel like your side is being picked on. That really only shows you have no rebuttal except "but they did this! we can't be bad...at all."

Every side in EVE is "bad" in many ways, and to shrug off the portrayal of them isn't going to help you learn the realities of the lore, if you really care about the lore.

You are really adamant about calling the Amarrians by "Amarrian Racist Cult of Slavers," even out of character....This concerns me. Take a breath, realize this is a game, and think objectively rather than defensively. I don't know why you're so upset about a "dark" portrayal of the Minmatar, but it wouldn't be EVE Online if everything wasn't dark in it's own way.

Even the Sansha can be portrayed in a good light if played right. Certainly the Cartel and Guristas can. Blooders....well you have to be a damn good politician to do that but I'm not saying it's impossible.

By your assumptions of CCP and the "Icelandic" take on the Minmatar, I'm guessing you feel a personal attachment to the Minmatar and feel like you're being insulted when a virtual race's flaws are pointed out...

Take another deep breath and realize it's a game, again.
Matar Ronin
#22 - 2013-09-05 05:30:18 UTC
Eran Mintor wrote:
Matar Ronin wrote:
]By the definition of prime fiction you state here in what different light does it portray the Caldari? I think the intolerance of the "State" is just as restrictive as the intolerance of the "Tribe" in prime fiction. But let's just dump on the Minmatar, because it's fashionable to do so.

I wonder why seemingly intelligent, seemingly not bigoted players are so quick to buy into prime fiction that casts the "Dark" people as tribal inferiors and their "Not Dark Cult Slavers" as the shiny golden vessels of progress and religious zeal. I do not hear many singing the praises of the Sansha while deriding the constant warfare engaged in by the mostly non-cyborg races of the four empires.

To be honest I doubt if the Icelandic lads who created the EVE lore and authorize the prime fiction have had much real life experience with "Dark" people and unfortunately for us all they slipped into an easily acceptable stereotype for their largely white male base demographic. It is a shame that such an insulting premise has become an essential element of the game, truly an embarrassing shame.


Calm down, cowboy.

The discussion is about "Minmatar Cultural Intolerance;" you need not bring the Caldari's intolerance into this because you feel like your side is being picked on. That really only shows you have no rebuttal except "but they did this! we can't be bad...at all."

Every side in EVE is "bad" in many ways, and to shrug off the portrayal of them isn't going to help you learn the realities of the lore, if you really care about the lore.

You are really adamant about calling the Amarrians by "Amarrian Racist Cult of Slavers," even out of character....This concerns me. Take a breath, realize this is a game, and think objectively rather than defensively. I don't know why you're so upset about a "dark" portrayal of the Minmatar, but it wouldn't be EVE Online if everything wasn't dark in it's own way.

Even the Sansha can be portrayed in a good light if played right. Certainly the Cartel and Guristas can. Blooders....well you have to be a damn good politician to do that but I'm not saying it's impossible.

By your assumptions of CCP and the "Icelandic" take on the Minmatar, I'm guessing you feel a personal attachment to the Minmatar and feel like you're being insulted when a virtual race's flaws are pointed out...

Take another deep breath and realize it's a game, again.
Hey just because I live in California doesn't mean you get to call me a cowboy! lol

Because you disagree with my rebuttal it equates to being no rebuttal?

If some of the points I was making comparing the lore of the other races to that of the Minmatar bothered you, be at peace it is after all just a game.

My reference to the Icelandic lads was that in my experience most prejudice is not usually "boy I really hate those guys", it's usually "honestly I don't know first hand anything about them and really don't it give much thought" so fact free stereotypes and false perceptions abound, and are perpetuated.

I'd put the Sansha and the Blood Raiders in the same boat of no redeeming social value, but it would be interesting watching someone extoll the virtues of their cultures that are horrendous in the lore.

Therein lies the point I was trying to make, both the Sansha and the Blood Raiders personify evil without being a specific racial group. They are dark in character, not necessarily in skin coloration. I would put forth that our good Icelandic friends at CCP were culturally clumsy and irrefutably inconsiderate when they chose to make the dark skinned characters of the EVE/ Dust 514 universe the tribes that got enslaved.

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Matar Ronin
#23 - 2013-09-05 05:45:15 UTC
Eran Mintor wrote:
You are really adamant about calling the Amarrians by "Amarrian Racist Cult of Slavers," even out of character....This concerns me.
Do not be alarmed, I work in the film industry, I use this time online as an immersive interactive writing tool. Seeing what reactions are stimulated and what statements are brought forth in response. As the saying goes "I am a professional, don't try this at home." lol

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#24 - 2013-09-05 06:19:10 UTC
I live in California too, more specifically San Francisco. California doesn't make me think of cowboys either... Not sure what that has to do with this but I'll just stop there before I derail this thread...

Anyways, I did say you had a rebuttal, but it merely equates to "hey these guys are 'dark skinned' and are victims of slavery. how racist and wrong of you, they didn't, nor would, do anything bad!"

The lore doesn't portray any race or faction in black and white. There is a lot of area that could be construed as bad, or waved off as acceptable due to circumstances. It depends how you play it; Sansha included.

Keep in mind that these races and factions have evolved from humans tens of thousands of years from now. You can hold onto any perception, or what-have-you, that you hold today, but they really mean nothing in this environment because people would have obviously changed so much over that time-span that it's irrelevant.

The fact you think CCP/Icelanders are picking on skin color just makes me want to vomit.

Keep in mind, they made Gallente, one of the most powerful empires in EVE, ancestors of the French...

There is some humor there, really.

Don't relate EVE cultures or stereotypes to current day ones, it just doesn't fit.
Matar Ronin
#25 - 2013-09-05 06:40:18 UTC
Eran Mintor wrote:
I live in California too, more specifically San Francisco. California doesn't make me think of cowboys either... Not sure what that has to do with this but I'll just stop there before I derail this thread...

Anyways, I did say you had a rebuttal, but it merely equates to "hey these guys are 'dark skinned' and are victims of slavery. how racist and wrong of you, they didn't, nor would, do anything bad!"

The lore doesn't portray any race or faction in black and white. There is a lot of area that could be construed as bad, or waved off as acceptable due to circumstances. It depends how you play it; Sansha included.

Keep in mind that these races and factions have evolved from humans tens of thousands of years from now. You can hold onto any perception, or what-have-you, that you hold today, but they really mean nothing in this environment because people would have obviously changed so much over that time-span that it's irrelevant.

The fact you think CCP/Icelanders are picking on skin color just makes me want to vomit.

Keep in mind, they made Gallente, one of the most powerful empires in EVE, ancestors of the French...

There is some humor there, really.

Don't relate EVE cultures or stereotypes to current day ones, it just doesn't fit.
I take it you have no sense of humor, the California reference in regard to cowboy was a joke .... followed by lol ... to make it a bit more clear.

Swallow that vomit back down son prejudice exists and not believing so does not make it go away.

Then the grand finale, where you say the time span in the game means nothing about contemporary things is relevant and then you follow it up with how CCP based the Gallente on the French. Nicely done!

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#26 - 2013-09-05 06:57:05 UTC
Matar Ronin wrote:
I take it you have no sense of humor, the California reference in regard to cowboy was a joke .... followed by lol ... to make it a bit more clear.

Swallow that vomit back down son prejudice exists and not believing so does not make it go away.

Then the grand finale, where you say the time span in the game means nothing about contemporary things is relevant and then you follow it up with how CCP based the Gallente on the French. Nicely done!


If I had no sense in humor I wouldn't have made the Gallente comment (which, officially, CCP has removed that lineage from Gallente ancestry years ago but I still like to poke fun at it time to time). However, if you want to use that comment as an example that current day prejudices exist in EVE you clearly aren't considering the dark ages of EVE where not a soul even knew of the existence of Earth, let alone people like the French, Russians, etc.

Perhaps consider me confused why a California cowboy is a joke....there are plenty cowboys in Cali so I fail to see the joke.

Finally, I never said prejudice doesn't exist. I told you to that EVE doesn't allow your prejudices based on current day; these races and factions are not the Chinese, Africans, Europeans, etc.
Matar Ronin
#27 - 2013-09-05 07:16:41 UTC
Eran Mintor wrote:

Perhaps consider me confused why a California cowboy is a joke....there are plenty cowboys in Cali so I fail to see the joke.
I said just because I live in California ...... where as you said above "there are plenty of cowboys" doesn't mean you get to call me a cowboy! lol

That was in response to your saying "Calm down cowboy" I made that the joke knowing full well you had no knowledge of my California residency, similar to saying "just because I'm from New York doesn't mean you get to call me a wall street broker" if you had made some reference to Gordon Gekko and how greed is good.

I hope this makes you less confused.

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Rhodopsin Pserad
Ho Theos Geometrei
#28 - 2013-10-25 05:03:09 UTC
Every race in Eve has a grand evil, the Mimatar's evil is their tribalism. Rather than conforming to a strong and uniform cultural system, they decided they'd rather be weak, divided, inter-combative, and self-obsessive. Like all cultures in human history, such people are inevitably conquered just as the Byzantine Christians were by the Muslims the Africans and Native Americans by the Europeans, the Tibetans by the Chinese, the Greeks by the Trojans, the Jews by the Romans, etc.. Nature doesn't forgive weakness.

"Si vis pacem, para bellum."

"Does the Eagle know what is in the pit, Or wilt thou go ask the Mole? Can Wisdom be put in a silver rod, Or Love in a golden bowl?"  "Above all, you can believe in Providence in either of two ways, either as thirst believes in the orange, or as the ass believes in the whip."
Matar Ronin
#29 - 2013-12-04 18:24:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Matar Ronin
Rhodopsin Pserad wrote:
Every race in Eve has a grand evil, the Mimatar's evil is their tribalism. Rather than conforming to a strong and uniform cultural system, they decided they'd rather be weak, divided, inter-combative, and self-obsessive. Like all cultures in human history, such people are inevitably conquered just as the Byzantine Christians were by the Muslims the Africans and Native Americans by the Europeans, the Tibetans by the Chinese, the Greeks by the Trojans, the Jews by the Romans, etc.. Nature doesn't forgive weakness.

"Si vis pacem, para bellum."
In my opinion the above is an overly grand supposition. Tribalism is not very different from nationalism. The uniform culture of tribalism is not less potent then any other form of culture by definition. In every racial sector of EVE the same evils exist and play themselves out according to the cultural template of their society.

Weapons technology does not make one strong and the prey weak. I can shoot a Kodiak bear with my human weapons tech, the bear has not become weak.

Europeans are on a relatively short roll, in terms of human existence on the planet, and as the planet shrinks they will eventually vanish back into the genetic pool and be indistinguishable from the darker skined, curly haired, almond eyed people who have the dominant genes. The "weak" recessive genes are what nature does not long tolerate. As uncomfortable a fact as that may be to many eurocentric thinkers, their path into the future is harshly limited by hard scientific facts.

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
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