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L3 ship
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Barak Degre
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2013-12-04 01:40:47 UTC
I've been googling around and can't find a definite answer as, in my opinion, it just seems like people suggest pure overkilling ships for running missions; I mean, I've seen lots of people suggesting at least a cruiser to run L2, whereas I'm running them just fine with a destroyer, hence the question, what is the bare minimum to jump to L3?

Is a Cruiser enough? Or do I really need to to be able to fit a BattleCruiser?


In my eyes it would seem that a fully fitted Cruiser should be sufficient as it's the natural progress, Frigates for L1, Destroyers for L2 and so on, is this the case? Would just love an honest opinion before I proceed spending ISK, don't really have spare to waste on tests.
ColdCutz
Frigonometry
#2 - 2013-12-04 02:38:37 UTC  |  Edited by: ColdCutz
Yes L3's can be done with T1 cruisers. The first time I warped into an L3 with my Vexor I had my friend follow me along just incase it was too much. I was able to handle it solo after that, but it took a fair amount of speed tanking and distance to handle the firepower; this was when I had moderate armor tanking skills. Most people recommend the battlecruiser to newer players because their tanking skills may still be very low, and as such the higher base hitpoints offer a larger buffer to make mistakes in an L3.
Barak Degre
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-12-04 02:51:04 UTC
Thanks for the info, much appreciated.
Thomas Builder
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2013-12-04 03:11:10 UTC
It also very much depends on the mission.

There are L4 missions that can be done in a cruiser, while others are difficult in a battleship. (Or were difficult before the MJD was introduced - that thing makes many missions way to easy...) Just because you can do one mission in a cruiser doesn't mean you can do all of that level. E.g. if you get a lvl 3 with elite cruisers, you will have trouble getting enough dps out of your cruiser to break their tank - especially if you don't have that many skill points. And with a cruiser you'll have a much lower margin of error - while a BC might survive you killing a trigger ship early, that cruiser might not.
Anya Klibor
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2013-12-04 03:45:34 UTC
Generally, you want to play it safe in missions. As carbearish as it sounds, you really do want a battlecruiser for L3s and a battleship for l4s. You can use some HACs for L3s (the Ishtar is perfect for them) and even in some L4s (it's a lot of speed tanking).

Leadership is something you learn. Maybe one day, you'll learn that.
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#6 - 2013-12-04 04:32:37 UTC
It's not just about being able to complete the mission. Yes, you might be able to technically do a level 3 in a frigate, but it would take you so long that you could run a bunch of level 2 missions in the same time instead and get better ISK/standing gains. Same thing applies to running level 4 in a BC or in a BS that you just barely have the skills to sit in.
Good Apollo BS4
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-12-04 04:44:38 UTC
OP if you're feeling brave and have a few mil of isk you don't need get a couple friends and try speed tanking an l3 in frigates... You might be surprised how easy it is... You might also lose a cheap frigate lol but it's surprising how difficult it is for larger ships to hit smaller ones that go really fast... We used to run L4s in small frigate groups. You did sometimes bcs of webbing npv frigs but other times it's hugely fun! Wouldn't recommend doing that if you have very low frig skills but try it sometime
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#8 - 2013-12-04 05:06:09 UTC
Anya Klibor wrote:
Generally, you want to play it safe in missions. As carbearish as it sounds, you really do want a battlecruiser for L3s and a battleship for l4s. You can use some HACs for L3s (the Ishtar is perfect for them) and even in some L4s (it's a lot of speed tanking).



HACs can handle L4s very, very efficiently.

When I need to repair sec status after ganking too many miners, I usually blitz L4s in a specific Ishtar fit (medium damage, able to project it at both short and long range, active armor tank). Never have trouble with even the harder storyline missions, or the more feared L4s.

The key to making the transition from L2s to L3s is switching your tank from mission to mission to fit the damage type your foes use, and respecting mission triggers.


Also, never fly anything in a mission that you cannot afford to lose. You will make mistakes from time to time, and sometimes a mission will throw a bit of a curveball at you. I remember being in real trouble when I was new to L3s and encountered a mission where I was neuted dry while warp scrambled in a Myrmidon, and only my light drones and the ability to overheat my armor resist modules were able to save me. (I had enough cap to hit the hardeners, but not to run armor reppers).


The key to transitioning from L3s to L4s is having a tech 2 tank, the ability to break battleship rats' tanks, and the ability to deal with warp scrambling elite frigates (via light drones, a web and close range guns, or a microjump drive). A tech 1 battleship with tech 2 tanking modules, sensibly chosen guns and drones and relevant utility modules will be the best option for most lower skilled characters.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#9 - 2013-12-04 05:08:25 UTC
Good Apollo BS4 wrote:
OP if you're feeling brave and have a few mil of isk you don't need get a couple friends and try speed tanking an l3 in frigates... You might be surprised how easy it is... You might also lose a cheap frigate lol but it's surprising how difficult it is for larger ships to hit smaller ones that go really fast... We used to run L4s in small frigate groups. You did sometimes bcs of webbing npv frigs but other times it's hugely fun! Wouldn't recommend doing that if you have very low frig skills but try it sometime


A newbie's issue will be the tanks on some elite cruiser rats.

I can do ~450 DPS in an assault frigate, and ~350 in a standard frigate (IIRC). But someone without two years of skill training may struggle to hit 200. IIRC some L3s have rats with 150-200 DPS tanks.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2013-12-04 05:18:04 UTC
The general rule for ship progression verses mission level :

Level 1 = Frigate and Destroyer
Level 2 = Cruiser
Level 3 = Battlecruiser
Level 4 = Battleship
Level 5 = Capital ships or Fleet with logistics support

That basically applies to T1 ships. T2 ships basically step up a level for their hull class.

Of course there's always an exception to the rule.

For example, I have a T1 Frigate (Rifter) that's able to complete level 3 encounter missions within the mission bonus time. I also have a friend who completes level 4 encounter missions with an Assault Frigate (Jaguar).

Basically in my first 9 months of playing this game I decided to stay in my Rifter and max train all skills related to that ship (most to level 5) before moving up to another hull class. While doing that I also upgraded the ship fittings along the way as I moved up in mission levels. Eventually my Rifter was max fit with T2 rigs and Faction / Deadspace modules completing level 3 encounter missions within the mission bonus time.

As I said, there's always an exception to the rule.


DMC

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#11 - 2013-12-04 05:22:15 UTC
If completing missions "within the bonus time" is even a concern, you've already driven any semblance of profit into the ground long ago. Which - don't get me wrong - is fine for a veteran looking for challenge and crazy new things to do. I would however never recommend that to a newbie concerned about their bottom line.
Good Apollo BS4
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-12-04 05:27:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Good Apollo BS4
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Good Apollo BS4 wrote:
OP if you're feeling brave and have a few mil of isk you don't need get a couple friends and try speed tanking an l3 in frigates... You might be surprised how easy it is... You might also lose a cheap frigate lol but it's surprising how difficult it is for larger ships to hit smaller ones that go really fast... We used to run L4s in small frigate groups. You did sometimes bcs of webbing npv frigs but other times it's hugely fun! Wouldn't recommend doing that if you have very low frig skills but try it sometime


A newbie's issue will be the tanks on some elite cruiser rats.

I can do ~450 DPS in an assault frigate, and ~350 in a standard frigate (IIRC). But someone without two years of skill training may struggle to hit 200. IIRC some L3s have rats with 150-200 DPS tanks.


Yeah, lost a couple t1s in l4s... Then got to t2s. Blaster enyos! Everywhere lol. Haven't done it in a while but we would run the fours with 4 enyos that put out approx 220dps no OH... Threes were not too bad except for a few that had those stupid elite frigs... Cruiser tanks weren't too bad but always had enough dumb noobs (like me :) ) that we could break tank. but hell it's a 2 mil incursis or whatever. Long as rats can't pod lol have fun! :)
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#13 - 2013-12-04 05:49:13 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
The general rule for ship progression verses mission level :

Level 1 = Frigate and Destroyer
Level 2 = Cruiser
Level 3 = Battlecruiser
Level 4 = Battleship
Level 5 = Capital ships or Fleet with logistics support

That basically applies to T1 ships. T2 ships basically step up a level for their hull class.

Of course there's always an exception to the rule.

For example, I have a T1 Frigate (Rifter) that's able to complete level 3 encounter missions within the mission bonus time. I also have a friend who completes level 4 encounter missions with an Assault Frigate (Jaguar).

Basically in my first 9 months of playing this game I decided to stay in my Rifter and max train all skills related to that ship (most to level 5) before moving up to another hull class. While doing that I also upgraded the ship fittings along the way as I moved up in mission levels. Eventually my Rifter was max fit with T2 rigs and Faction / Deadspace modules completing level 3 encounter missions within the mission bonus time.

As I said, there's always an exception to the rule.


DMC



When you mention 'capital ship', you should clarify that you mean specifically Carriers. Dreadnoughts and Titans are beyond worthless in missions as they struggle to apply damage even to battleships, much less cruisers and frigates. Using a supercarrier in a mission is like using a sledgehammer to swat a fly, except that the sledgehammer is made of solid gold, and the fly is outdoors in a bad neighbourhood in Detroit.

Also IIRC around 50% of level 5 missions have acceleration gates that do not allow carriers into them.


A better rule of thumb is the following, IMO:

L1: Any failfit with awful skills, any ship class
L2: Any semi-sensible fit whether tailored to the mission or not, any ship class that can apply short range damage
L3: Either a tech 2 tank, or a tech 1 tank tailored to the mission, any ship class other than a frigate, sensible choice of guns
L4: Tech 2 tank specifically tailored to the mission, sensible choice of guns
L5: Highly theorycrafted energy neutralizer proof tank tailored to the mission (using deadspace modules), or a fleet, or a carrier, plus an escape route in case your mission is hotdropped by hostile players. For fleets, both spider tanking and dedicated logistics are viable (if you don't know what those terms mean, you aren't ready for L5s). Most players never set foot in L5s and never aspire to, although there are a small number of people that run them heavily.

Incursion Vanguard site ('L6'): 10-11 person fleet with 2-3 dedicated logistics ships. Easily completed with 6-9 (particularly after constellation control changes a bit) but game mechanics actively punish doing so.
Incursion Assault site ('L7'): 20 person fleet with fleet composition chosen to fit the needs of the specific site.
Incursion Mothership site: 40 person fleet. Can be done with fewer but again, game mechanics actively punish doing so.



All that said, as someone that started my EVE career running only missions then grew out of that, I advise the following: Run missions up to and including level 3 missions to learn the combat interface. Then, stop running them unless you specifically need to for some in-game goal.

I presently run missions for security status and to build the trust of people who I want to betray. That is really about it.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#14 - 2013-12-04 06:00:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Iria Ahrens
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:


Also, never fly anything in a mission that you cannot afford to lose. You will make mistakes from time to time, and sometimes a mission will throw a bit of a curveball at you. I remember being in real trouble when I was new to L3s and encountered a mission where I was neuted dry while warp scrambled in a Myrmidon, and only my light drones and the ability to overheat my armor resist modules were able to save me. (I had enough cap to hit the hardeners, but not to run armor reppers).


I remember the first time I did The blockade in my prophecy. This is of course back in the days when it sucked, but I wanted to fly one because it looked so cool. I hadn't learned to make sure my warp path was clear, so when the damage started getting too much and I tried to bug out, I kissed an asteroid, and kissed it again, and again, and I didn't know what to do to make it hurry up and stop playing love games with an asteroid, and I got popped.
Oops

My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#15 - 2013-12-04 06:22:35 UTC
Barak Degre wrote:
Is a Cruiser enough? Or do I really need to to be able to fit a BattleCruiser?

I use an Assault Frigate.

The recommendation of a battlecruiser is overkill, but it is a safe choice.

I've done level 2 missions in a destroyer; Mission of Mercy is a tough nut to crack. I just wouldn't recommend it to everyone.
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2013-12-04 07:52:11 UTC  |  Edited by: DeMichael Crimson
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
If completing missions "within the bonus time" is even a concern, you've already driven any semblance of profit into the ground long ago. Which - don't get me wrong - is fine for a veteran looking for challenge and crazy new things to do. I would however never recommend that to a newbie concerned about their bottom line.

As long as the mission is completed within the bonus time, it's profit.

It was just an example to show the exception to the rule regarding ship class verses mission level. It was not my intention to encourage the OP to run level 3 missions in a T1 Frigate. I distinctly stated that I had a max fit up and had max trained all skills related to that ship.

Also I don't recall the OP saying anything about 'The Bottom Line'.



DMC

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
Barak Degre
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2013-12-04 16:13:28 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
The general rule for ship progression verses mission level :

Level 1 = Frigate and Destroyer
Level 2 = Cruiser
Level 3 = Battlecruiser
Level 4 = Battleship
Level 5 = Capital ships or Fleet with logistics support

That basically applies to T1 ships. T2 ships basically step up a level for their hull class.

Of course there's always an exception to the rule.

For example, I have a T1 Frigate (Rifter) that's able to complete level 3 encounter missions within the mission bonus time. I also have a friend who completes level 4 encounter missions with an Assault Frigate (Jaguar).

Basically in my first 9 months of playing this game I decided to stay in my Rifter and max train all skills related to that ship (most to level 5) before moving up to another hull class. While doing that I also upgraded the ship fittings along the way as I moved up in mission levels. Eventually my Rifter was max fit with T2 rigs and Faction / Deadspace modules completing level 3 encounter missions within the mission bonus time.

As I said, there's always an exception to the rule.


DMC

This is exactly what I was NOT looking for.

As mentioned, this is the kind of info that I've been finding all day while googling and I was here to ask a different opinion as by my own experience I didn't need a Cruiser to run L2.

I've started running L2 with an Algos about 10 days in the game, which means pretty much with little to no skills and I've been highly successful, I've lost barely 2 ships which I've more than repayed through mission running as I've spent probably 6 or 7 millions in fittings whereas I've made almost 40.

I'm not even upset about losing the ships on the simple ground that I saw my mistakes and I have learned from them, now I am better at kiting and generally speaking at navigating around the environment, which means that with a T1 Destroyer I am running L2 without ever being in danger, and with ample time to collect my extra rewards. Mostly achieved by having heavily skilled in drones and letting them do their job while I kite.


Still appreciate the feedback though, just making a point.


I am not interested in testing myself to the extremes and running LX with a puny Frigate to prove anything, it's just that I don't like when it's too easy, I don't see the challenge, hence I wouldn't want to wait until I'm overkilling L3 to move up, I just wanted to know when it's fair to start giving it a shot; by reading the above comments I would say that, probably, I could already do it with a Cruiser, if I do pay attention.

Skilling now some extra range for target and drones which would help the kiting and don't really have time anyway until the next week to study the setup of my next ship, so I'll just wait for Monday or Tuesday, study a setup for a Vexor and give it a test, if it's too hard I can still leg it, park it and move back to run L2 on my Algos.



Thanks to everyone else that posted, especially to Sabriz Adoudel who made a very informative post with exactly the info I was looking for.



DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
If completing missions "within the bonus time" is even a concern, you've already driven any semblance of profit into the ground long ago. Which - don't get me wrong - is fine for a veteran looking for challenge and crazy new things to do. I would however never recommend that to a newbie concerned about their bottom line.

As long as the mission is completed within the bonus time, it's profit.

It was just an example to show the exception to the rule regarding ship class verses mission level. It was not my intention to encourage the OP to run level 3 missions in a T1 Frigate. I distinctly stated that I had a max fit up and had max trained all skills related to that ship.

Also I don't recall the OP saying anything about 'The Bottom Line'.



DMC

I can't really stand one side or the other as I am honestly not sure what is meant with "The Bottom Line" in this context, English is not my primary language and some times I still miss a clue here and there.

I don't really need to know that I can run some L4 with a T1 frigate, exceptions are not what I'm after, my point is more about what kind of ship will see me through ALL of L3 while earning my fair share.
Good Apollo BS4
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2013-12-04 16:21:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Good Apollo BS4
If you are looking to up the challenge a bit remove some tank and add in DMG mods. Useful for when you start pewpew and will keep you on your toes in the missions

As for one ship for all L3s... I used a brutix, rail fit. Swapped to a navy brutix eventually bcs I could afford to lose a few. Rail fit the tank on a brute is epic. Damage is pretty good too. Can run some fours but don't advise.

Lots of people do the frigs in threes and fours by the way. Wouldn't call it an exception :) just less frequent.
Barak Degre
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2013-12-04 16:35:38 UTC
Running solo, hence I am not considering the option.

Moving up to another drone ship on the simple ground that I have focused my skilling there at the moment, moving to a different kind of ship while I am not yet good all round would just mean asking for trouble.

Also, I am already low on tank to have DMG in, since I started running L2 :P

I barely have 1 armour and 1 resistance module, mostly on the ground that I have no grid left to fit anything else and defence is better than an empty slot.
Son of Dagan
Doomheim
#20 - 2013-12-04 17:03:44 UTC
Barak Degre wrote:
This is exactly what I was NOT looking for.

As mentioned, this is the kind of info that I've been finding all day while googling and I was here to ask a different opinion as by my own experience I didn't need a Cruiser to run L2.

I've started running L2 with an Algos about 10 days in the game, which means pretty much with little to no skills and I've been highly successful, I've lost barely 2 ships which I've more than repayed through mission running as I've spent probably 6 or 7 millions in fittings whereas I've made almost 40.


Algos will breeze through level 2 missions simply because with the most basic of aggro management("let them target me first") no enemy in level 1-2 missions ever targets drones, so you can just stay at 20km+ and wait while your drones kill everything. You don't even need a repair module.

Now you're probably thinking of repeating your Algos trick in L3 in a Vexor, and you're going to be surprised as hell when it turns out elite frigates suddenly target and web your drones popping them like popcorn.

The reason people give these generalized answers is because there's a shitload of variables to running missions. What skills you have, what ship you fly, your fit, your piloting, whether or not you read up on mission and know the triggers, and even the mission itself since they can vary wildly in difficulty across the same level.
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