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[Rubicon 1.1] Sisters of EVE Battleship

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Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#501 - 2013-12-04 16:00:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
BeanBagKing wrote:
The common option among the EFT warriors here ...


Remind me again why EFT warriors should be allowed to have opinions in the first place, much lest post them in a public forum.
Rio Bravo
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#502 - 2013-12-04 16:02:24 UTC
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:


do u guys not know how this game works? the only requirement to be able to be bridged through a black ops is to be able to fit a covert ops cloak. if you cannot fit a covert ops cloak you cant bridge through, simple as. so forget about such crazy thoughts.



Got to start thinking outside the box. i.e. warp bubble immunity, bastions EW immunity, etc. Come on! I know your smart enough!

:D

“You see, in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend: Those with loaded guns and those who dig. I dig.”  - Clint Eastwood, misquote.
Grenn Putubi
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#503 - 2013-12-04 16:05:07 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:

So a ship that has a jump drive and a covert ops cloak is fine but a BS that can only has a covert cloak is somehow massively overpowered? Roll

You disappoint me but if you're sticking to that decision, you need to go all out on the logi bonuses. 200-300% bonus to rep range in addition to the rep amount is absolutely necessary.


There is currently no ship in EVE that has a jump drive and a covert ops cloak. The BLOPS ships can't fit a covert cloak, only a normal cloak, though they do get a speed bonus while cloaked they are not capable of warping while cloaked and that's the big issue.

No BS can currently warp while cloaked and I believe it should stay that way.
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
#504 - 2013-12-04 16:07:35 UTC
F it I say make it so it turns into a gaint robot that brake dances
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#505 - 2013-12-04 16:10:29 UTC
I'm looking forward to the V2 of this.

I like the low mass concept and have no problem with the combat related bonuses or the slot layout. It's certainly something I could work with.

I wouldn't want to see it covops cloak, because EVE does not need covops cloaking battleships.

I wouldn't want to see it gain it's own jump drive. That kind of ability does not belong on a faction BS.

I wouldn't want to see it gain the ability to take a BLOPS bridge. We do need a better logistics solution for BLOPS fleets, but I do not think a faction BS is the right answer to that problem. A new set of T2 support BS, maybe.

I wouldn't want to see it's rep range increase a huge amount. The combination of a MJD and a long range rep would remove one of the major inhibiting factors in MJD BS fleets. I'm not sure if that inhibiting factor should be removed, but if it is to be removed I am certain that it should not be a faction BS that removes it. 100% rep range is as far as I would go on this.

I think the exploration bonuses could be useful in the right hands, but they do seem a little out of place on a battleship. If any bonus must be traded away, then those are the ones I would look at first.

Overall, I'd say either add a 100% range bonus to the reps or rethink the logistics role completely, because going only half way doesn't make much sense. I'd much rather see this kind of logistics role go to T2 hulls and have this ship fill a different role.
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#506 - 2013-12-04 16:13:43 UTC
I'm going to try to defend why I'm interested in fitting this ship with a bastion module (aka the marauder effect). This is from a PVP standpoint though.

My fear with making the Nestor a spacepriest without the Bastion module is that it itself would be too fragile and would die in a ball of fire before its made anytype of significant difference in a battle, because basically everybody will primary the billion isk ship on the field if there is no logi backing it. Even mega tanked, it will evaporate.

By giving it the bastion module, you are effectively making it much more resilent on the field, able to last longer, able to survive longer. The real differences between this ship and carriers (as spacepriests) is that this ship does not have the tank that a carrier does, but it does have the potential mobility of a Battleship and the benefit of being "simpler" than a carrier. Its a inbetween both small gang and large fleet fight ship. The bastion module gives this ship the two real benefits it needs to be a combat logistics medical ship.

1) Resistances to survive the field
2) Immunity to basic Ewar (sensor dampeners, ecm, etc).

Now the main concern is that having a ship like this be a logistics boat and have the bastion module would essentially be too powerful. In so on paper it is. In practice though...

1) The bastion module prevents this ship from moving, meaning its a Giant Battleship floating in space at 0 speed. A Dreadnought should be able to actually hit this thing. Fighters would wreck dps damage to an unbelievable amount. Its resistant but also vulnerable. Now the counter to this is more than "drop a dread" on it, as every other ship would be able to do significant damage to it. Its a battleship, other battleships should be a good counter to it.

2) The range on the repairers is SHORT. Meaning that if this ship is in bastion mode, the ships its defending would have to keep IT in range. The enemy drags a ship out of repairing range of the Nestor, it will basically die. Even if you boost this ships range to 20 or 25km repair range, that is still VERY short. You require the pilots of eve to use it more of an anchor, a very short anchor.

3) The Nestor in Bastion mode can't be helped by other ships. It can't be repaired, boosted, cap transferred, etc etc.

4) The Nestor has a 700 cargohold. Meaning even if you double cap boost the ship, it will run out of cap charges. This ship can only hold 21 cap booster 800's (or 29 navy caps). It won't last forever because it does not have the cargo capacity of a marauder (which is around 1200 I believe) or a carrier.

5) This ship is a neutralizing magnet. Any type of neutralizer ship (armageddon, legion, pilgrim, etc) will cause this ship to have a VERY bad day.

6) This ship cannot "On the fly" fit cap rechargers like a carrier can. It should not be able to either. If there is a carrier nearby, I can see it doing that.

7) Longer term fights and this ship will need support of itself. This ships best friend IS a few Guardians, as this boat will eventually need capacitor to keep up, especially if its cap rechargers expire.

So yes the bastion module gives it a few basic benefits a logistics battleship would need, while also giving it quite a few negatives. This ship isn't the god of logistics, just another tool. A strong one at that.

I see this ship being great in a small fleet gangs (3 to 15) to medium and some large engagements (20 to 50 to 100 gang fights), the giant super fights involving carriers and supers though, I don't see this having a role. Theoretically this sounds like a good option, in practice though, this has not been attempted or done.

Yaay!!!!
Michael Cartgwright
Cease'n'Sekkle noble herbs
#507 - 2013-12-04 16:15:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Cartgwright
A very nice ship! I'm just missing a bonus to remote rep range. 8,4 km is a bit low, at 20-30 km it even were useful. I'm considering PvE content, namely incursions. I consider a good range to be more important than rep amount, but with a working fitting it should still rep at least 50% more than a Logi. After all, it's a BS, not a cruiser.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#508 - 2013-12-04 16:16:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Grenn Putubi wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:

So a ship that has a jump drive and a covert ops cloak is fine but a BS that can only has a covert cloak is somehow massively overpowered? Roll

You disappoint me but if you're sticking to that decision, you need to go all out on the logi bonuses. 200-300% bonus to rep range in addition to the rep amount is absolutely necessary.


There is currently no ship in EVE that has a jump drive and a covert ops cloak. The BLOPS ships can't fit a covert cloak, only a normal cloak, though they do get a speed bonus while cloaked they are not capable of warping while cloaked and that's the big issue.

No BS can currently warp while cloaked and I believe it should stay that way.


I know that, but CCP rise said that Black ops have yet to receive their balancing pass and if any BS should have a covert ops cloak, it's the Black ops.

To me he has that the wrong way round. Black ops should be the last ship to ever have a covert cloak because it already has a jump drive.

Without a jump drive, giving the Nestor a cloak is no different than a cruiser having one, so i don't understand the fear.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#509 - 2013-12-04 16:17:17 UTC
Rio Bravo wrote:
warp bubble immunity

I'm actually quite keen on that idea.
mad gnu
Sounds of Distant Stars
#510 - 2013-12-04 16:18:13 UTC
I thought that it would be something like this:



Amarr Battleship Bonuses:
4% Armor resistances per level

Gallente Battleship Bonuses:
10% drone damage and hitpoints per level

Role bonuses:
500% bonus to remote repair range
50% bonus to large energy turret optimal range
Can fit covert cynosural field generator
Can fit clone vat bay
Can jump to covert cynosural field


Slot layout: 7H, 6M, 6L; 5 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 11250 PWG, 680 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 8900 / 9950 / 9900
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 6200 / 1044 / 5.9
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 92 / .18 / 56000000 / 13.97
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 500
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km / 85 / 7
Sensor strength: 24 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 465
Cargo Capacity: 700

Ship maintenance bay capacity: 120000m3
Maximum jump range: 3.5 ly

Due to its specialization towards covert operations, its ship maintenance bay is able to accommodate only covertcloack ships







Cannot fit covops cloak; cannot fit covert jump portal.

Mothership for small cloaking groups, living at hostile space. And expensive logi for covops drops.
Rio Bravo
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#511 - 2013-12-04 16:22:20 UTC
Being able to respond to a cov op cyno would allow it to keep its role as an explorer of relic, data, and ghost sites. It addresses the problems of vulnerability jumping gates. (MJD, warp stabs, and Target breakers do some good in transit). I agree it should be a 'welcomed' ship, as opposed to a true black ops ship that 'welcomes' a fleet.

covops frigate scans a ghost site, lights a covops cyno, Nestor appears, runs site, waits for a cyno back. It's cargo hold isn't enough to unbalance the game. Like obsolete JF or even Rorquals. These are of course just brain storming ideas...

“You see, in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend: Those with loaded guns and those who dig. I dig.”  - Clint Eastwood, misquote.
MukkBarovian
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#512 - 2013-12-04 16:25:15 UTC
The ship looks like it will perform exceptionally well. Lets even assume that the rep strength bonus will turn into a small rep range bonus. Drones are doing great right now. (At some point we will probably get around to needing to nerf them.) The ship is very fast for an armor tanker. It looks fun.

The problem right now is a disconnect between price and performance. The ship isn't worth 2.2 bil. For that price, a slowcat can be deployed to the field. I'd be happy to pay 800-1000mil for one of these things. The big question is, where will market forces end up placing this ship? They're not worth 2 and a half Machariels. Given the player driven market its going to be a while before prices settle, but hopefully we can look into the future and spot any potential bottlenecks that will upset the process.
Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#513 - 2013-12-04 16:27:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Savira Terrant
Salpad wrote:
When are you going to add another missile-using "faction"? So far, out of the Sisters plus all the pirate factions ships, the only one that isn't gün-based is Guristas.

It's okay for EVE to be primarily a gün-based game, but it'd be very nice to just have two different non-gün-basedpirate/pseudo-pirate factions, so that there is something to choose between.

So add another missile-based faction, please.



There is still "Minmatar-Caldari" outstanding. I envision something like a Machariel with massive large missile speed and mjd reactivation bonus and native targeting range of 125 km before skills, much like I fly my Golem only with moar speed. Twisted Bastion is totaly overrated. Cool

For your reference:

[Golem, Interceptors Bane]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Target Painter II
Stasis Webifier II
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Warp Scrambler II
Large Micro Jump Drive
100MN Microwarpdrive II

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II

Hornet EC-300 x5
Hobgoblin II x5
Hornet EC-300 x5
(I so wish 3 large smartbombs would fit on this thing.)


Arthur Aihaken wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Last, I'm seeing some complaints or concerns that it feels kind of all over the place. This is definitely intentional.

Maybe you should reflect on that a bit then. You're introducing another $1-billion+ ISK battleship with the likelihood that you'll have to immediately revisit it. Again. Meanwhile, we're again talking about nerfing another Pirate battleship, the jury is still out on the new Marauders, the other Pirate battleships need a balance pass - and we still haven't touched base on Black Ops.

Shelve the Nestor, gather some feedback for the next few months and re-introduce new Pirate battleships (including the Nestor), Black Ops, any adjustments to Marauders and address the abysmal warp mechanics for battleships.


I agree wholeheartedly.

.
Omar Pyreheart
Fabricated Reality
#514 - 2013-12-04 16:43:12 UTC
Drop the existing bonuses.

Give it a bonus to LOGISTICS DRONES (of all types). More effective and more control range.

I could see it as a BLOPS Logi Drone ship (very unique), but honestly that may be too much.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#515 - 2013-12-04 16:49:24 UTC
My take:


NESTOR

Amarr Battleship Bonuses:
4% Armor resistances per level
-15% Jump Drive Fuel Consumption

Gallente Battleship Bonuses:
10% drone damage and hitpoints per level
+10% Jump Drive Fuel Bay

Role bonuses:
50% bonus to large energy turret optimal range
50% increased strength for scan probes
+10 virus strength for relic and data analyzers
-99% Covert Ops Cloak CPU requirements
Able jump without a cyno field (arrives at star)
Cannot fit a cyno itself.



Slot layout: 7H, 6M, 6L; 5 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 11250 PWG, 680 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 8900 / 9950 / 9900
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 6200 / 1044 / 5.9
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 92 / .18 / 56000000 / 13.97
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 500
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km / 85 / 7
Sensor strength: 24 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 465
Cargo Capacity: 700


Reasonably lore friendly, not OP, hard to catch and kill at 2.2 billion isk, and excellent for exploration and scan sites.
Caelestina
0.0 Massive Dynamic
Pandemic Horde
#516 - 2013-12-04 16:53:05 UTC
Wait, I take back my previous idea.


Give it the following bonuses. It'll be super unique.


Nestor - The party boat!


Role Bonus:

Able to fit fireworks bombs.
600% increased fireworks radius
200% increased fireworks color depth
Able to deploy fireworks safety drones (wouldn't want anyone to get hurt)
Projects new "party" music to all players within 300km
500% increase to beer distribution efficiency


It dispenses beers, because it's an emergency responder and all.

Party on, Garth!
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#517 - 2013-12-04 16:59:09 UTC
I still believe that:

1) the slot layout of 7/6/6 is fine.

2) It does NOT need a jump drive

3) It does NOT need a blackops jump portal generator.

4) It should be able to Jump Through a Black Ops Jump Portal Generator (aka it should be able to follow the Astero and Stratios). You can modify the fuel amount as needed.

5) It does NOT need a covert ops cloaking device (Yes this contradicts how using Black Ops Jump Portals work, but excuse the issue).

A covops cloak would be too strong on a battleship.

A few people have talked about the whole clone vat bay. Some people want this to be a utility ship, others want it to be a combat ships, and others (like myself) want this to be a logistic battleship (something that does not exist atm). Regarding the clone vat bay, it might not be the best utility for this ship at the moment. Could this be useful? Yes, but only to a certain degree. I'd hate to see this ship relegated to being an undergrown rorqual that never leaves a pos shield/station, or has excessively limited uses. There are better options I believe.


Yaay!!!!
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#518 - 2013-12-04 17:03:26 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:

A covops cloak would be too strong on a battleship.


Again, why?

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
BeanBagKing
The Order of Atlas
#519 - 2013-12-04 17:09:07 UTC
MukkBarovian wrote:


The problem right now is a disconnect between price and performance. The ship isn't worth 2.2 bil. For that price, a slowcat can be deployed to the field. I'd be happy to pay 800-1000mil for one of these things. The big question is, where will market forces end up placing this ship? They're not worth 2 and a half Machariels. Given the player driven market its going to be a while before prices settle, but hopefully we can look into the future and spot any potential bottlenecks that will upset the process.


I'm going to quote you on this because its very well put. I'm not even sure I'd pay 800m for it though given the options I have of other faction or T2 battleships
BeanBagKing
The Order of Atlas
#520 - 2013-12-04 17:11:15 UTC  |  Edited by: BeanBagKing
Edit double post delete me