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Eve Down Under Bombshell: No Sov overhaul until at least Winter 2014

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Valterra Craven
#441 - 2013-12-03 20:30:11 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


This is a dodge some people use to excuse their lack of willingness to see the right thing done. And it's untrue. I benefited from null sec pre-anom nerf. I benefited from incursions pre-incursion nerf. I made a boatload of isk before the FW nerfs. I supported every one, because I'm playing a video game and the important thing is quality game play not imaginary space money.

I fly a mach. I love my mach. CCP said they are gonna nerf the Mach (I hope not too much), I agree with it. you also see that I (a null sec PVE player) and AGAINST buffs to null sec.

Don't try to assume everyone is as selfish as everyone else is. Some of us don't condone imbalance even if it benifits us.


I'm not assuming anything about you. This is a thread about the entirety of null sec and the entirety of hi sec. My point was directly in relation to large groups of people, You are a single person of both sets and likely an anomaly in both cases. My arguments are based on what "groups" or people are likely to do given certain situations.

Jenn aSide wrote:

"Taking away" something that is imbalanced isn't really taking away something, it's balancing. I'm sorry that some of you can't see that the pile you are sitting on isn't proper, but the fact is it isn't and those of us interested in a great overall game experience are going to continue to say so.

And WTF is an "anom asteroid belt"?


Well considering the fact that CCP has already spent considerable resources balancing income in both sec levels for the past couple of years and you still aren't happy, it would seem to me that what you deem imbalance hasn't been born out in actual merit based arguments but in opinions.

Anom asteroid belts as I'm referring to them are not belts that are part of the system, but show up as a warp to option in the ship scanner. These were heavily revamped in Null for Odyssey.
Valterra Craven
#442 - 2013-12-03 20:31:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Valterra Craven
Jenn aSide wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:


Anoms were nerfed how exactly in the last 6 months?



How where they buffed? Unless you think that "2 less frigates in a sanctum" thing was a "buff" lol. if that's what you mean, then you're wrong it was a nerf, becuase they added frigates to the best anom (forsaken hubs) which made it harder for you average null anom farmer to make isk (most null systems won't have sanctums if you upgrade).


I never said anom combat sites were buffed in the last 6 months. I said anom asteroid belts were buffed in the last 6 months

I was merely asking how they were nerfed recently as I wasn't aware of any significant changes to them in the past 6 months.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#443 - 2013-12-03 20:33:17 UTC  |  Edited by: La Nariz
Valterra Craven wrote:

I'm not sure how you ever expect to compete with a sytem like Sobaseki, regardless of buffs or nerfs. The sheer amount of people in empire will always dwarf null sec, and because of that the two will never be equal or balanced. Not to mention the fact that in your production systems you aren't competing with anyone else, whereas in high sec I have to actively look for slots that are not in production in a station and then I wouldn't get the benefit of the time savings of Null outposts...

Anoms were nerfed how exactly in the last 6 months?

I know that income was adjusted awhile back, but I dont recall any more Nerfs to null in recent history.

Powercreep aside, CCP seem to be willing to give you guys more buffs all things considered in the last 6 months. Maybe you should broker more of those buffs that are not directly related to income that would make sense and not fall in power creep?


Finding production slots in highsec is never an issue. I expect that something several thousand players strive to build can be better than anything NPCs hand to people for no investment. Anomalies were nerfed by replacing some of the crusiers/battlecrusiers with scramming frigates. It made it so you no longer have the choice of active ratting that gave you really good ticks or afk ratting that gave you minimal ticks. This is ignoring the fact that all but 3-4 types of anomalies are completely useless.

Its pretty hilarious to see everything suggested aside from some modest highsec nerfs.

E: It looks like the point is evading you too, that highsec is so good it makes a lot of sov space worthless.

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Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#444 - 2013-12-03 20:37:26 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
...I'm assuming every system has an outpost here...
Not where I live.
Valterra Craven
#445 - 2013-12-03 20:38:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Valterra Craven
La Nariz wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:

I'm not sure how you ever expect to compete with a sytem like Sobaseki, regardless of buffs or nerfs. The sheer amount of people in empire will always dwarf null sec, and because of that the two will never be equal or balanced. Not to mention the fact that in your production systems you aren't competing with anyone else, whereas in high sec I have to actively look for slots that are not in production in a station and then I wouldn't get the benefit of the time savings of Null outposts...

Anoms were nerfed how exactly in the last 6 months?

I know that income was adjusted awhile back, but I dont recall any more Nerfs to null in recent history.

Powercreep aside, CCP seem to be willing to give you guys more buffs all things considered in the last 6 months. Maybe you should broker more of those buffs that are not directly related to income that would make sense and not fall in power creep?


Finding production slots in highsec is never an issue. I expect that something several thousand players strive to build can be better than anything NPCs hand to people for no investment. Anomalies were nerfed by replacing some of the crusiers/battlecrusiers with scramming frigates. It made it so you no longer have the choice of active ratting that gave you really good ticks or afk ratting that gave you minimal ticks. This is ignoring the fact that all but 3-4 types of anomalies are completely useless.

Its pretty hilarious to see everything suggested aside from some modest highsec nerfs.

E: It looks like the point is evading you too, that highsec is so good it makes a lot of sov space worthless.


The point is not lost on me. Your sov space is worthless because its remained underpopulated and underutilized.

You are missing the point that no amount of buffing or nerfing is going to put that simple fact into balance. CCP can't colonize your space for you.

Now, I dont know if this is still the case or not, but back in the day you could only have one outpost per system.

If this is still true today, then I see no reason why a simple buff to make null be able to have an outpost on every planet in the system wouldn't be possible given all the other changes recently.

Edit, that alone given the slot boost would be a huge boost to your industry giving you the ability to have a lot of production density in a very easy protected space of your choosing.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#446 - 2013-12-03 20:42:22 UTC
La Nariz wrote:


The bolded part is wrong and highsec can have multiple stations per system so your points are moot. This isn't including the fact that the player made outposts do not come close to npc handed stations.

Wow... such an eloquent argument there.
Yes, I know that not every null sec system has an outpost. That was an assumption for the sake of follow on maths to show Null Sec industrial potential. Also player made outposts since Odyssey can be superior to NPC stations in their chosen area.
Now, if you would like to explain why outposts can't be built at the rate of one a system to generate a vastly superior industrial capability for Null compared to high?
As the maths proves that if this was done Null would be vastly superior to high. As the ratio when taking developed systems into account (That aren't even all fully upgraded atm) shows that Null Industry is in a fine state already per developed system.

You are complaining about an area of Null that just had a massive buff six months ago. And using old figures to complain about.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#447 - 2013-12-03 20:44:39 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:

The point is not lost on me. Your sov space is worthless because its remained underpopulated and underutilized.

You are missing the point that no amount of buffing or nerfing is going to put that simple fact into balance. CCP can't colonize your space for you.

Now, I dont know if this is still the case or not, but back in the day you could only have one outpost per system.

If this is still true today, then I see no reason why a simple buff to make null be able to have an outpost on every planet in the system wouldn't be possible given all the other changes recently.


No vast swaths of it are literally worthless, I live there so yeah I know. It's still the case one outpost per system. We're not asking CCP to colonize space for us we're asking CCP make it worth colonizing. When highsec systems are better than sov space it makes that sov space worthless.

A simple change like shifting most of industry to POS would make a world of a difference.

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Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#448 - 2013-12-03 20:45:11 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:


Anoms were nerfed how exactly in the last 6 months?



How where they buffed? Unless you think that "2 less frigates in a sanctum" thing was a "buff" lol. if that's what you mean, then you're wrong it was a nerf, becuase they added frigates to the best anom (forsaken hubs) which made it harder for you average null anom farmer to make isk (most null systems won't have sanctums if you upgrade).


I never said anom combat sites were buffed in the last 6 months. I said anom asteroid belts were buffed in the last 6 months

I was merely asking how they were nerfed recently as I wasn't aware of any significant changes to them in the past 6 months.


You're talking about hidden belts then. Ok, I was like WTF.

but you're still wrong. Hidden belts used to be sigs and they were great for mining because a ganker had to probe a miner down to kill them. Now they are "anoms" and anyone can warp to one, making it wayyyy more dangerous to miners.

That's called a nerf sir.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#449 - 2013-12-03 20:47:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Sentamon
Funny all the effort that goes into taking and keeping worthless space. Some people even make it into their job. Roll

When the tears stop flowing over the noobs in highsec, you all might want to look in the mirror for the problem.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Valterra Craven
#450 - 2013-12-03 20:49:39 UTC
La Nariz wrote:

No vast swaths of it are literally worthless, I live there so yeah I know. It's still the case one outpost per system. We're not asking CCP to colonize space for us we're asking CCP make it worth colonizing. When highsec systems are better than sov space it makes that sov space worthless.

A simple change like shifting most of industry to POS would make a world of a difference.


I'm curious why you think that?

If you were to put an outpost in these systems and actually invested in that system to upgrade it for better rats, or belts etc, wouldn't be worthless....

Seems like you don't want to put the effort in and instead just want to make highsec less good.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#451 - 2013-12-03 20:49:44 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Wow... such an eloquent argument there.
Yes, I know that not every null sec system has an outpost. That was an assumption for the sake of follow on maths to show Null Sec industrial potential. Also player made outposts since Odyssey can be superior to NPC stations in their chosen area.
Now, if you would like to explain why outposts can't be built at the rate of one a system to generate a vastly superior industrial capability for Null compared to high?
As the maths proves that if this was done Null would be vastly superior to high. As the ratio when taking developed systems into account (That aren't even all fully upgraded atm) shows that Null Industry is in a fine state already per developed system.

You are complaining about an area of Null that just had a massive buff six months ago. And using old figures to complain about.


Your assumptions were wrong and lead to the wrong conclusion, I let you know that. Yep it got a buff which was slightly tweaking outposts it wasn't enough and the lack of proliferation of nullsec industry proves that. Sure they can do well in one area where a highsec station will have 150 industry slots 100 ME/PE/Copy/invention slots a refinery and a repair station; basically doing well in all areas.

Again something thousands of players make and are required to defend/maintain is considerably worse than npc handed highsec stations.

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Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#452 - 2013-12-03 20:51:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
Trii Seo wrote:
- Anomalies are your trusty-rusty thing to deal with, just kill rats and warp to the next one. They're basically upgraded belts with names - they are visible immediately to an enemy, and the only thing they do have is more rats than there are in a belt. Income is an absolute sum of rat bounties + loot. Bounties don't adjust for market changes. At this moment, a Forsaken Hub pays about 20m ISK - you're not buying anything shiney for 20m ISK. 1,4 mil bounty on a battleship was actually worth something a long time ago.


I'm just going to single this out, because it has the seed of a good idea: what if the bounty was calculated roughly the way player bounties are calculated, as a percentage of hull value? Rat ships are not as good as PC ships, so say a rat Nightmare is worth 50% the value of a PC Nightmare. Then a bounty is some percentage of that.

Suddenly, bounties scale with the economy. The only downside I can think of is that unloved faction ships will pay crap, but they're about to be rebalanced, so maybe that problem will fix itself.

[EDIT: WH-style commodities work, too, although I wouldn't mind if fewer of them sold to NPC buy orders...]

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Valterra Craven
#453 - 2013-12-03 20:51:58 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


You're talking about hidden belts then. Ok, I was like WTF.

but you're still wrong. Hidden belts used to be sigs and they were great for mining because a ganker had to probe a miner down to kill them. Now they are "anoms" and anyone can warp to one, making it wayyyy more dangerous to miners.

That's called a nerf sir.


Well I'm talking about previously hidden belts, but that change nerfed all sec bands equally, including worm hole space. So a nerf to everyone is net neutral.

Besides, they are no different than mining regular belts now, and as you point out, its already super easy to avoid ganks with intel and docking tactics when mining those...
Valterra Craven
#454 - 2013-12-03 20:55:29 UTC
La Nariz wrote:


Your assumptions were wrong and lead to the wrong conclusion, I let you know that. Yep it got a buff which was slightly tweaking outposts it wasn't enough and the lack of proliferation of nullsec industry proves that. Sure they can do well in one area where a highsec station will have 150 industry slots 100 ME/PE/Copy/invention slots a refinery and a repair station; basically doing well in all areas.

Again something thousands of players make and are required to defend/maintain is considerably worse than npc handed highsec stations.



Well I'd just like to point out that

A. It doesn't take thousands of players to build and maintain outposts.
B. Empire stations are more generalist, they have lots of slots but no bonuses
Null Stations are more specialized, fewer slots, but with much greater bonuses

The imbalance is in your head.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#455 - 2013-12-03 20:55:36 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:

I'm curious why you think that?

If you were to put an outpost in these systems and actually invested in that system to upgrade it for better rats, or belts etc, wouldn't be worthless....

Seems like you don't want to put the effort in and instead just want to make highsec less good.


If its sec was between -0.7 and -1.0 that is the minority, so yeah vast swaths are worthless. Sure we could plop outposts and other structures down that would require defending and maintenance just to get near the level of a single highsec system but, then you're wasting resources on something that still won't compare to a highsec system.

-Moving industry to POS makes wardecs/risk more significant as there is stuff to be threatened, so that puts null/low/wh producers on more of an even footing with highsec producers.

-Moving industry to POS adds logistical costs to industry for highsec, so that puts null/low/wh producers on more of an even footing with highsec producers.

-Moving industry to POS removes considerable NPC assistance, so that puts null/low/wh producers on more of an even footing with highsec producers.

Of course there are little details I am intentionally not bringing up because it'll bring out pedantic-highsec-npc-alt-n+1 so that's the general idea.

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Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#456 - 2013-12-03 20:56:31 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


You're talking about hidden belts then. Ok, I was like WTF.

but you're still wrong. Hidden belts used to be sigs and they were great for mining because a ganker had to probe a miner down to kill them. Now they are "anoms" and anyone can warp to one, making it wayyyy more dangerous to miners.

That's called a nerf sir.


Well I'm talking about previously hidden belts, but that change nerfed all sec bands equally, including worm hole space. So a nerf to everyone is net neutral.

Besides, they are no different than mining regular belts now, and as you point out, its already super easy to avoid ganks with intel and docking tactics when mining those...


You said they were buffed. Those were your words. You don't say they are net neutral or whatever.

but you seem to think a nerf to "all" is "net neutral, then you agree that all missions (lvls 1-5 in high sec, low and null) being nerfed across the board wouldn't actually be a nerf and would therefore be ok right? Same with incursions since they occur in all space excpet WHs too.

Right?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#457 - 2013-12-03 20:57:29 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:

The point is not lost on me. Your sov space is worthless because its remained underpopulated and underutilized.

You are missing the point that no amount of buffing or nerfing is going to put that simple fact into balance. CCP can't colonize your space for you.

Now, I dont know if this is still the case or not, but back in the day you could only have one outpost per system.

If this is still true today, then I see no reason why a simple buff to make null be able to have an outpost on every planet in the system wouldn't be possible given all the other changes recently.


No vast swaths of it are literally worthless, I live there so yeah I know. It's still the case one outpost per system. We're not asking CCP to colonize space for us we're asking CCP make it worth colonizing. When highsec systems are better than sov space it makes that sov space worthless.

A simple change like shifting most of industry to POS would make a world of a difference.

It would also provide a world of hurt for any players without any established POS structures. For those in larger groups with some level of industrial focus this wouldn't be an issue, but for those dabbling casually, part of groups with no real industry focus, or newer players just dabbling into industry, a reduction of facilities to the degree that would make the difference you intend would be prohibitive if not crippling for some effected.

I not sure the facility count is the core of the issue beyond being able to match facility counts across security bands, overly bountiful outliers aside, but rather the cost and efficiency of the facilities.
Valterra Craven
#458 - 2013-12-03 20:59:17 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

You said they were buffed. Those were your words. You don't say they are net neutral or whatever.

but you seem to think a nerf to "all" is "net neutral, then you agree that all missions (lvls 1-5 in high sec, low and null) being nerfed across the board wouldn't actually be a nerf and would therefore be ok right? Same with incursions since they occur in all space excpet WHs too.

Right?



I said they were buffed because they were... or did you miss those dev blogs that changed the mineral spreads of those anoms and added a **** ton more minerals to them....

It helps if you actually understand what the hell I'm talking before you reply to a post.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#459 - 2013-12-03 21:01:26 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:

Well I'd just like to point out that

A. It doesn't take thousands of players to build and maintain outposts.
B. Empire stations are more generalist, they have lots of slots but no bonuses
Null Stations are more specialized, fewer slots, but with much greater bonuses

The imbalance is in your head.


And here's where you show you are a highsec pubbie pretending to know about nullsec.

Sure it literally only takes one person to put down the egg but it must be watched or someone will steal/kill it. It must be defended or else someone will take it. Both things highsec rightfully doesn't have to deal with but, wrongfully they get to excel in all areas whereas nullsec outposts get to be terrible in all but one area.

Once again something player made and maintained is considerably worse than something NPCs hand to the player.

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La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#460 - 2013-12-03 21:05:28 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
It would also provide a world of hurt for any players without any established POS structures. For those in larger groups with some level of industrial focus this wouldn't be an issue, but for those dabbling casually, part of groups with no real industry focus, or newer players just dabbling into industry, a reduction of facilities to the degree that would make the difference you intend would be prohibitive if not crippling for some effected.

I not sure the facility count is the core of the issue beyond being able to match facility counts across security bands, overly bountiful outliers aside, but rather the cost and efficiency of the facilities.


I've already covered that when I proposed the idea earlier in the thread it accounts for smaller groups. I agree that cost and efficiency is a problem as well as accessibility, we just haven't got past the point of accessibility yet because it has to be continually rehashed for highsec-npc-alt-n+1.

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