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Eve Down Under Bombshell: No Sov overhaul until at least Winter 2014

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NickSuccorso
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#401 - 2013-12-03 17:29:16 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Your whole argument is flawed as Period Basis is very much "not empty" anymore, sorry. You sound interested in living there, though - should I have one of my rental management team associates contact you? P


Really? I bet Goons could even arrange to have my assets transported to the region. Just tell me who I send my security deposit too and for how much as I wouldn't want to be left out.

I am very happy back in empire for the time being. Most of Eve is neutral, fights occur in normal time, and I don't ever "have" to shoot at structures. If I really wanted to return to null at the moment, I wouldn't do so as a Goon renter. I am burdened with the affliction of having a spine.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#402 - 2013-12-03 17:35:56 UTC
S'No Flake wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:


Perhaps because you can just camp gates and cargo scan people until you see one worth suicide ganking, then do it up?

People do this all the time. I was talking to a goon the other day who was bragging to me about how they PLEX fairly easily by just suicide ganking in highsec.

Go into the map and filter by "ships destroyed in the last hour" and glance at where those ship kills are.

Now go over to the deep portions of nullsec. Strangely there are almost no ship kills! Funny how that is.


i'm sure someone could post a link to more recent info, but here's a good starter for you. http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/3235


Apple vs Apples... How many of those 0.0 PvP kills are outside of wars / battles for timers.


Apples vs Apples, how many of those high sec kills are ganks rather than groups like RvB blowing up frigates all day every day?

Quote:

Not that 0.0 is not dangerous... it is ...
And some people like that other way nobody will be in 0.0 and everyone will be in HS.


The assertion is that null sec is "safer" than high sec. It's like saying "South Central LA is safer than Beverly Hills because in the hood yo homie next door can call you on your cellie and tell you the Crips are coming".......
Valterra Craven
#403 - 2013-12-03 18:12:58 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


There is isk to be made in null, I know, i've made it, i prefer null PVE it any other place's PVE. I don't see the need for any more rewards in null, hell play your cards right put in the effort and null can make you space rich.

But it's just way easier to do in high sec. I plex 4 accounts with isk left over in 2 weekends of Incursion running unless someone gets mad and pops the moms, at which point it's back to the incredibly ridiculous lvl 4 high sec mission running isk (and beleive me, the Sisters/Thukker agents aren't the only ones spewing out crazy LP store items....). Leave aside the gold mine known as COSMOS farming (head in a jar, anyone?)



Why shouldn't it be this way?

I keep seeing this argument, but have yet to see any reasons why things shouldn't be this way.

One of the few things you seem to miss about things is that unless you have a lot of isk, a lot of SP, or both, this is not possible for your average hi sec player, not to mention that COSMOS and EPIC missions are something that a vast majority of Hi sec players have never tried, let alone know about. Again, I've lost more money doing COSMOS activities than I ever lost in Null. (over a 3 year period mind you)

Besides the fact that no one has considered the amount of income CCP would lose if you werent able to PLEX 4 accounts by doing things in hi sec. The losses would be staggering.

Jenn aSide wrote:


The trade off for increased safety and comfort in a game like this should be lower rewards, and on paper those rewards "look" lower till you take into account "reality" factors like how people can disrupt you easily in null sec but have a much tougher time doing the same thing in high sec. It's just way too easy now.



They are lower rewards, you can make more isk in Null than hi sec. People can disrupt you just as easily in Null as they can in hi sec, the only difference between hi and null is that there are far more targets in hi sec which means players can get by in the sea of fish so to speak.
Valterra Craven
#404 - 2013-12-03 18:14:54 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


The assertion is that null sec is "safer" than high sec. It's like saying "South Central LA is safer than Beverly Hills because in the hood yo homie next door can call you on your cellie and tell you the Crips are coming".......


Its not an assertion. Its fact. The reality is that comparing hi sec to null is more like comparing beverely hills to the sticks of Idaho or the corn fields of Kansas. You still know all your neighbors and use those intel channels, but null sec is far far less populated than hi sec, which is security in and of itself.
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#405 - 2013-12-03 18:15:34 UTC
Highsec: 650 systems (out of 1212 total) hold…
• 2,890 copy slots
• 5,580 each of ME, PE, and invention slots
• 68,050 production slots
Lowsec: 306 systems (out of 694 total) hold…
• 1,479 copy slots
• 2,909 each of ME, PE, and invention slots
• 28,741 production slots.
(NPC) Nullsec: 144 systems (out of 6022 total) hold…
• 970 copy slots
• 1,940 each of ME, PE, and invention slots
• 10,400 production slots.

The best system in the game is Nonni, a 0.5-system 5 jumps from Jita, with its 50 copy, 100 ME/PE/invention, and 750 production slots. The only thing that keeps it from being completely ridiculous is that it only has two moons, so there's no room for any additional POS.

To put this in perspective, the entire region of Scalding Pass has two conquerable factories (100 slots total), five player-built refineries (25 base slots) and three player-built factories (150 base slots, 215 base effective slots given their speed increase) for a grand total of 340 effective production slots. Under half of what exists in a single highsec system, after building eight outposts.

This doesn't account for upgrades, which I can't check on dotlan. If the factories were all upgraded to tier 3 (which is expensive), you'd have just over Nonni's slots with 782 base slots.

Tell me again how this is fair and balanced?

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
Valterra Craven
#406 - 2013-12-03 18:20:26 UTC
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
Highsec: 650 systems (out of 1212 total) hold…
• 2,890 copy slots
• 5,580 each of ME, PE, and invention slots
• 68,050 production slots
Lowsec: 306 systems (out of 694 total) hold…
• 1,479 copy slots
• 2,909 each of ME, PE, and invention slots
• 28,741 production slots.
(NPC) Nullsec: 144 systems (out of 6022 total) hold…
• 970 copy slots
• 1,940 each of ME, PE, and invention slots
• 10,400 production slots.

The best system in the game is Nonni, a 0.5-system 5 jumps from Jita, with its 50 copy, 100 ME/PE/invention, and 750 production slots. The only thing that keeps it from being completely ridiculous is that it only has two moons, so there's no room for any additional POS.

To put this in perspective, the entire region of Scalding Pass has two conquerable factories (100 slots total), five player-built refineries (25 base slots) and three player-built factories (150 base slots, 215 base effective slots given their speed increase) for a grand total of 340 effective production slots. Under half of what exists in a single highsec system, after building eight outposts.

This doesn't account for upgrades, which I can't check on dotlan. If the factories were all upgraded to tier 3 (which is expensive), you'd have just over Nonni's slots with 782 base slots.

Tell me again how this is fair and balanced?


So stop being lazy and build more outposts. The real question this data set begs is how many stations do hi, low and null all have in comparison.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#407 - 2013-12-03 18:25:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Valterra Craven wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


The assertion is that null sec is "safer" than high sec. It's like saying "South Central LA is safer than Beverly Hills because in the hood yo homie next door can call you on your cellie and tell you the Crips are coming".......


Its not an assertion. Its fact.


ok, provide the link to the "fact" then. Show my how the place that has less than 20% of the character population of EVE (null sec) but 3.5 times as many pvp kills as a much more populated section high sec) is "safer".

I'll wait.

Quote:

The reality is that comparing hi sec to null is more like comparing beverely hills to the sticks of Idaho or the corn fields of Kansas. You still know all your neighbors and use those intel channels, but null sec is far far less populated than hi sec, which is security in and of itself.


So let me get this straight. Null sec (space with no automated game interventions like CONCORD and "safeties", and also space where MANY more ships die to pvp) is "safer" than High sec....because most people are hiding behind the safety of high sec?

That's just brilliant.
Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#408 - 2013-12-03 18:27:10 UTC
Deunan Tenephais wrote:
mynnna wrote:
You realize that 10 billion isk a month is about 14 million isk an hour, right? Saying that people "make a profit" doing that isn't really that impressive at all.

You realize people do not play 24/24, 7/7 ?
When they are not bots, that is.


If you figure a 40 hour work week, and 4 weeks per month that's 62.5 mill an hour.

If you have at LEAST 10 active members that's only 6.25 mill per hour for each of them.

And I would HOPE that if you're renting you A) Have that many members in your whole organization that are fairly active and B) They're capable of making about 6 mill an hour from having a null sec system available to them.

The more members you have the less this number can be and the easier it gets.

The Drake is a Lie
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#409 - 2013-12-03 18:28:15 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
Highsec: 650 systems (out of 1212 total) hold…
• 2,890 copy slots
• 5,580 each of ME, PE, and invention slots
• 68,050 production slots
Lowsec: 306 systems (out of 694 total) hold…
• 1,479 copy slots
• 2,909 each of ME, PE, and invention slots
• 28,741 production slots.
(NPC) Nullsec: 144 systems (out of 6022 total) hold…
• 970 copy slots
• 1,940 each of ME, PE, and invention slots
• 10,400 production slots.

The best system in the game is Nonni, a 0.5-system 5 jumps from Jita, with its 50 copy, 100 ME/PE/invention, and 750 production slots. The only thing that keeps it from being completely ridiculous is that it only has two moons, so there's no room for any additional POS.

To put this in perspective, the entire region of Scalding Pass has two conquerable factories (100 slots total), five player-built refineries (25 base slots) and three player-built factories (150 base slots, 215 base effective slots given their speed increase) for a grand total of 340 effective production slots. Under half of what exists in a single highsec system, after building eight outposts.

This doesn't account for upgrades, which I can't check on dotlan. If the factories were all upgraded to tier 3 (which is expensive), you'd have just over Nonni's slots with 782 base slots.

Tell me again how this is fair and balanced?


So stop being lazy and build more outposts. The real question this data set begs is how many stations do hi, low and null all have in comparison.


Exactly, null sec should build more stations, because the last 10 years of furious and costly station building and wars fought for those stations totaling millions of ships killed to gain 3% of the industrial capacity that high sec players get for FREE is totally not insane at all.
Valterra Craven
#410 - 2013-12-03 18:35:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Valterra Craven
Jenn aSide wrote:

ok, provide the link to the "fact" then. Show my how the place that has less than 20% of the character population of EVE (null sec) but 3.5 times as many pvp kills as a much more populated section high sec) is "safer".

I'll wait.


Sure, let me just provide a link to you on the fact that there is a sun in the sky...

Its a fact that a system that only you inhibit is safer than a system with 50 people in it that are all random strangers. Keep in mind that safeties don't protect anyone. The only place a player is truly safe is in a station.

I've been suicide ganked more times than I've lost ships in null in any situation.

Given that there are actual resources to fight over, it makes sense that null would have more pvp kills. But for the general day to day activities of PVEing in a stable region (like Delve was back in the day) it is def safer than hi sec.

Jenn aSide wrote:

So let me get this straight. Null sec (space with no automated game interventions like CONCORD and "safeties", and also space where MANY more ships die to pvp) is "safer" than High sec....because most people are hiding behind the safety of high sec?

That's just brilliant.


No, its safer because there isn't anyone to kill you. Again if you aren't a complete idiot in Null sec, which apparently you either are, or are accusing me of being, Null is safer than hi sec.

Back to the real life example, its the same reason crime is so high in heavily populated areas, and almost non existent in corn fields.

Also, please try to multi-quote better :)
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#411 - 2013-12-03 18:37:44 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

Exactly, null sec should build more stations, because the last 10 years of furious and costly station building and wars fought for those stations totaling millions of ships killed to gain 3% of the industrial capacity that high sec players get for FREE is totally not insane at all.


Maybe nobody told you but nullsec cartels can use the highsec stations too. The opposite isn't true.

Sorry for letting the cat out of the bag for everyone hoping to keep this a secret. Roll

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Valterra Craven
#412 - 2013-12-03 18:38:43 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

Exactly, null sec should build more stations, because the last 10 years of furious and costly station building and wars fought for those stations totaling millions of ships killed to gain 3% of the industrial capacity that high sec players get for FREE is totally not insane at all.



Whats insane is the expectation that Null (a lawless and completely unsettled area of space) should have better and more production capabilities than high populated areas of space. "eye roll"

Its a stupid argument. Null just got a massive production buff 6 months ago that was rightly deserved.

Again, the answers to a majority of all these complaints is to buff null appropriately.

Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#413 - 2013-12-03 18:41:09 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:


Why shouldn't it be this way?


Because it's wrong. EVE isn't a game that equalizes rewards no matter what a player does, it's built on the idea that more risk = more reward. It's a founding principle of EVE Online.

Quote:

I keep seeing this argument, but have yet to see any reasons why things shouldn't be this way.

One of the few things you seem to miss about things is that unless you have a lot of isk, a lot of SP, or both, this is not possible for your average hi sec player, not to mention that COSMOS and EPIC missions are something that a vast majority of Hi sec players have never tried, let alone know about. Again, I've lost more money doing COSMOS activities than I ever lost in Null. (over a 3 year period mind you)


This is called a personal problem. It's not my fault (or CCPs or EVEs) that high sec players are too lazy to make use of the thing the game gives them for free.

Quote:

Besides the fact that no one has considered the amount of income CCP would lose if you werent able to PLEX 4 accounts by doing things in hi sec. The losses would be staggering.


This is the standard "appeal to CCPs wallet" fallacy. It's nonsense.

It's gotten crazy. A buddy of mine started playing last year and I loaned him a Navy Raven to incursion with. The powers that be allowed him to use it till he could "train for something useful". His char was 3 months old and he was training it to fly a faction gun machariel.

It took him 3 days of HQ sites (from a zero'd out wallet because he spent the isk I gave him fitting my old CNR) to buy a faction gun fit Mach. 3 days of doing incursions after work.

It took me 3 and a half months to afford that CNR back in 2007 doing high sec missions. after work. I can plex 4 accounts with a single weekend of incursions, or a few days of Sisters/thukker missions or at best a week of cosmos farming. And nothing I'm doing requires a PhD where other high sec players can't do it.


Quote:

They are lower rewards, you can make more isk in Null than hi sec. People can disrupt you just as easily in Null as they can in hi sec, the only difference between hi and null is that there are far more targets in hi sec which means players can get by in the sea of fish so to speak.



Ah, so one guy can come into a high sec system and make EVERY mission runner there dock up, refit to defensive equipment like stabs/taget lock breakers, or refit for PVP? And those high sec mission runners can be hot dropped because that one guy has a cyno? And the hotdroppers will get CONCORED after they shoot you one time?

Wow, i need to find that section of high sec where it's just as easy to disrupt PVE as it is in null sec, because that place sounds awesome, and imaginary.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#414 - 2013-12-03 18:42:58 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

Exactly, null sec should build more stations, because the last 10 years of furious and costly station building and wars fought for those stations totaling millions of ships killed to gain 3% of the industrial capacity that high sec players get for FREE is totally not insane at all.


Maybe nobody told you but nullsec cartels can use the highsec stations too. The opposite isn't true.


Wrong, high sec people can use null faclities, if they take them by force.

I know, we'll dress up a null sec station to look like a High Sec Incursion MOM and wait for ISN, TVP and DIN to fight each other over who gets to pop it.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#415 - 2013-12-03 18:47:22 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

Exactly, null sec should build more stations, because the last 10 years of furious and costly station building and wars fought for those stations totaling millions of ships killed to gain 3% of the industrial capacity that high sec players get for FREE is totally not insane at all.



Whats insane is the expectation that Null (a lawless and completely unsettled area of space) should have better and more production capabilities than high populated areas of space. "eye roll"


Yes, 10 years of HUMAN EFFORT should result in more production capability than that offered for free to people who simply sub to EVE online and train Industry 1 and stay in high sec.

Quote:

Its a stupid argument. Null just got a massive production buff 6 months ago that was rightly deserved.

Again, the answers to a majority of all these complaints is to buff null appropriately.



Null Industry does need a buff, but you can't buff your way to magic. And it would take magic to make any amount of null buffing = the FREE stuff of high sec.

Fortunately, CCP understands that, the POCOs are just a 1st move, more and more will be player controlled, less and less will be handed to players for free. The high sec crowd detests this idea because it means competing (and competition comes with a risk of loss, also something high sec only players can't stomach).
Valterra Craven
#416 - 2013-12-03 18:51:30 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


Because it's wrong. EVE isn't a game that equalizes rewards no matter what a player does, it's built on the idea that more risk = more reward. It's a founding principle of EVE Online.



And I agree with you. Null as it stands offers better rewards than hi sec. You said so yourself.

The main theme with everyone here is that its "easier" to make money in hi sec than in null.

Last time I checked, null sec wasn't supposed to be easier.

Jenn aSide wrote:

This is the standard "appeal to CCPs wallet" fallacy. It's nonsense.

It's gotten crazy. A buddy of mine started playing last year and I loaned him a Navy Raven to incursion with. The powers that be allowed him to use it till he could "train for something useful". His char was 3 months old and he was training it to fly a faction gun machariel.

It took him 3 days of HQ sites (from a zero'd out wallet because he spent the isk I gave him fitting my old CNR) to buy a faction gun fit Mach. 3 days of doing incursions after work.

It took me 3 and a half months to afford that CNR back in 2007 doing high sec missions. after work. I can plex 4 accounts with a single weekend of incursions, or a few days of Sisters/thukker missions or at best a week of cosmos farming. And nothing I'm doing requires a PhD where other high sec players can't do it.


This is an insanely stupid argument to make. You gave someone a high end asset that would take others months to eek out and you are using that to make a balance argument... cuse that makes a lot of f@#$ing sense.

Jenn aSide wrote:

Ah, so one guy can come into a high sec system and make EVERY mission runner there dock up, refit to defensive equipment like stabs/taget lock breakers, or refit for PVP? And those high sec mission runners can be hot dropped because that one guy has a cyno? And the hotdroppers will get CONCORED after they shoot you one time?

Wow, i need to find that section of high sec where it's just as easy to disrupt PVE as it is in null sec, because that place sounds awesome, and imaginary.


Hmm last time I checked, campaigns like Goon's hulkageddon were pretty damn effective. You aren't going to disrupt people without effort, this is true regardless of the sec status of the system.
Valterra Craven
#417 - 2013-12-03 18:57:49 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


Yes, 10 years of HUMAN EFFORT should result in more production capability than that offered for free to people who simply sub to EVE online and train Industry 1 and stay in high sec.


Well for starters, outposts haven't been out for 10 years. Furthermore, the goal of allainces is not to colonize space. Its to hold it and use its resources. Different groups have different proprieties. There are far fewer production groups in Null than there are in Hi sec.


Jenn aSide wrote:

Null Industry does need a buff, but you can't buff your way to magic. And it would take magic to make any amount of null buffing = the FREE stuff of high sec.


Then provide conclusive evidence to support that theory. Null isn't supposed to equal high sec. Its fricking lawless unsettled space. If you want to compete with empires, then build an empire. This is not a balance issue.

Jenn aSide wrote:

Fortunately, CCP understands that, the POCOs are just a 1st move, more and more will be player controlled, less and less will be handed to players for free. The high sec crowd detests this idea because it means competing (and competition comes with a risk of loss, also something high sec only players can't stomach).


I live and breath in hi sec currently, I'm not arguing against things like the PoCo change. But one thing will likely remain the same throughout all the changes. Concord will always exist, Stations will always exist, and there will always be more players in hi sec than in null sec. Missions will always exist and players will continue to build industrial empires that they do not in null. No amount of buffing/nerfing will change these facts.

Because of that Null players will continue to wine.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#418 - 2013-12-03 18:59:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Valterra Craven wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


Because it's wrong. EVE isn't a game that equalizes rewards no matter what a player does, it's built on the idea that more risk = more reward. It's a founding principle of EVE Online.



And I agree with you. Null as it stands offers better rewards than hi sec. You said so yourself.

The main theme with everyone here is that its "easier" to make money in hi sec than in null.

Last time I checked, null sec wasn't supposed to be easier.


The point here is that the isk in high se cis too good for how easy it is. Less isk OR harder PVE in high sec fixes the problem. As it is now, High Sec PVE is so easy the ship mostly like to be lost to is is a CONDOR in a tutorial mission. See the blog post I linked.

Quote:

Jenn aSide wrote:

This is the standard "appeal to CCPs wallet" fallacy. It's nonsense.

It's gotten crazy. A buddy of mine started playing last year and I loaned him a Navy Raven to incursion with. The powers that be allowed him to use it till he could "train for something useful". His char was 3 months old and he was training it to fly a faction gun machariel.

It took him 3 days of HQ sites (from a zero'd out wallet because he spent the isk I gave him fitting my old CNR) to buy a faction gun fit Mach. 3 days of doing incursions after work.

It took me 3 and a half months to afford that CNR back in 2007 doing high sec missions. after work. I can plex 4 accounts with a single weekend of incursions, or a few days of Sisters/thukker missions or at best a week of cosmos farming. And nothing I'm doing requires a PhD where other high sec players can't do it.


This is an insanely stupid argument to make. You gave someone a high end asset that would take others months to eek out and you are using that to make a balance argument... cuse that makes a lot of f@#$ing sense.


So you confirm that you've never flwon in an incursions. The individual ship i let him use doesn't matter, in fact that ship was probably a DRAG on the fleet's isk making (because missiles have a travel time).

The fact is he made enough isk for a "rare" pirate faction ship with 3 DAYS of high sec "protected by concord" combat PVE. It's nonsense.


Quote:

Hmm last time I checked, campaigns like Goon's hulkageddon were pretty damn effective. You aren't going to disrupt people without effort, this is true regardless of the sec status of the system.


you know what it would take to make miners not mine in null sec?

1 frig with a cloak. hulkageddon required Goons and others to SUICIDE their ships over and over again, and deal with sec status loss.

But still you cling to the easily debunkable fact that the space with no concord is "safer". This just means you're not interested in objective truth.
Anna Karhunen
Inoue INEXP
#419 - 2013-12-03 19:00:24 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

Exactly, null sec should build more stations, because the last 10 years of furious and costly station building and wars fought for those stations totaling millions of ships killed to gain 3% of the industrial capacity that high sec players get for FREE is totally not insane at all.



Whats insane is the expectation that Null (a lawless and completely unsettled area of space) should have better and more production capabilities than high populated areas of space. "eye roll"


Yes, 10 years of HUMAN EFFORT should result in more production capability than that offered for free to people who simply sub to EVE online and train Industry 1 and stay in high sec.



Well, you obviously haven't put enough effort in the Nullsec to build those production capabilities, have you. So instead of complaining you could make more POSes for production.

As my old maths teacher used to say: "Statistics are like bikinis: It's what they don't show that's interesting". -CCP Aporia
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#420 - 2013-12-03 19:02:57 UTC
Anna Karhunen wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

Exactly, null sec should build more stations, because the last 10 years of furious and costly station building and wars fought for those stations totaling millions of ships killed to gain 3% of the industrial capacity that high sec players get for FREE is totally not insane at all.



Whats insane is the expectation that Null (a lawless and completely unsettled area of space) should have better and more production capabilities than high populated areas of space. "eye roll"


Yes, 10 years of HUMAN EFFORT should result in more production capability than that offered for free to people who simply sub to EVE online and train Industry 1 and stay in high sec.



Well, you obviously haven't put enough effort in the Nullsec to build those production capabilities, have you. So instead of complaining you could make more POSes for production.


While you use the free stuff in high sec and have that free stuff protected by game mechanics.

Gotcha.

You're gonna hate the next few expansions lol.