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Dev Blog: Building a Balanced Universe

First post First post
Author
CCP Dolan
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2013-12-03 15:29:26 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Gargant
Check out some math and numbers that make me feel dumb, and make the server feel great with CCP Prism X's new Dev Blog.

CCP Dolan | Community Representative

Twitter: @CCPDolan

Gooby pls

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#2 - 2013-12-03 15:30:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Steve Ronuken
First!

edit:

Now that I've read it, interesting Smile

Got to love binary trees. Usable for so many things.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

CCP Prism X
C C P
C C P Alliance
#3 - 2013-12-03 15:36:16 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Prism X
I hear this guy listens to really weird music (NSFW) which is probably indicative of his cognitive capacity. Probably not worth reading this!
CCP Explorer
C C P
C C P Alliance
#4 - 2013-12-03 15:40:03 UTC
I'm more scared and scarred of his pictures. Not the pictures in this devblog though, they are safe.

Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#5 - 2013-12-03 15:40:11 UTC
I have a concern. As you point out, this system means that ajacent systems tend to share the same physical hardware.

Doesn't that massively increase the chances of spillover tidi in nullsec battles: i.e. our staging system is overloaded so every system next to it is overloaded, massively increasing the pain in the ass to leave? Or the system the fight is in is massively overloaded, causing all systems around it to be massively overloaded as well making it a giant pain in the ass to get there?

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Fix Lag
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-12-03 15:48:11 UTC
The stuff outlined in the devblog certainly is some cool shit. But as Weaselior said, sticking adjacent systems all on the same node penalizes subcapitals traveling between gates when massive fights are going on.

CCP mostly sucks at their job, but Veritas is a pretty cool dude.

Oh Takashawa
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#7 - 2013-12-03 15:48:43 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
I have a concern. As you point out, this system means that ajacent systems tend to share the same physical hardware.

Doesn't that massively increase the chances of spillover tidi in nullsec battles: i.e. our staging system is overloaded so every system next to it is overloaded, massively increasing the pain in the ass to leave? Or the system the fight is in is massively overloaded, causing all systems around it to be massively overloaded as well making it a giant pain in the ass to get there?

Let's take it one step further - let's say I'm an alliance with huge numbers that doesn't want to commit to fighting in some situation. I can simply go *nearby* under this model, causing massive tidi and suffering for my opponents, without ever actually engaging in a figth. Or I can bridge huge piles of reinforcements somewhere nearby, slowing down the constellation enough to buy me much more time to form, reducing or eliminating the target's ability to extract and giving me more leeway to be slow at forming.

And all this, impacting thousands of players in EVE's biggest wars, to avoid inconveniencing a few ratters on the other side of EVE every now and then. Seriously?
CCP Prism X
C C P
C C P Alliance
#8 - 2013-12-03 15:50:11 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
I have a concern. As you point out, this system means that ajacent systems tend to share the same physical hardware.

Doesn't that massively increase the chances of spillover tidi in nullsec battles: i.e. our staging system is overloaded so every system next to it is overloaded, massively increasing the pain in the ass to leave? Or the system the fight is in is massively overloaded, causing all systems around it to be massively overloaded as well making it a giant pain in the ass to get there?


If your fighting system is reinforced that shouldn't be an issue. This is also no more of an issue than it used to be, and now the TiDi you create in your staging systems will at least not be affecting players on the other side of the universe who have nothing to do with your pew pew. Blink

And of course more nullsec nodes mean smaller pockets grouped together.
Oh Takashawa
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#9 - 2013-12-03 15:53:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Oh Takashawa
CCP Prism X wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
I have a concern. As you point out, this system means that ajacent systems tend to share the same physical hardware.

Doesn't that massively increase the chances of spillover tidi in nullsec battles: i.e. our staging system is overloaded so every system next to it is overloaded, massively increasing the pain in the ass to leave? Or the system the fight is in is massively overloaded, causing all systems around it to be massively overloaded as well making it a giant pain in the ass to get there?


If your fighting system is reinforced that shouldn't be an issue. This is also no more of an issue than it used to be, and now the TiDi you create in your staging systems will at least not be affecting players on the other side of the universe who have nothing to do with your pew pew. Blink

And of course more nullsec nodes mean smaller pockets grouped together.

Ok, but that also means that by staging near my enemies and having more numbers than them, I can basically permanently annoy my enemies purely by undocking, or just having lots of people around. Or I can lag out their staging, keeping them from logging in reinforcements, purely by having dudes of my own jumping out. There's all kinds of **** I can do, while on the other side of the universe, where there's no war, whole nodes will be dedicated to supporting a dozen systems populated by 20 dudes ratting. It'll be better for those 20 dudes, and worse for the 2000 dudes who're generating the large-scale content you use to sell your game.
Muscaat
EVE Markets
#10 - 2013-12-03 15:53:59 UTC
Love these behind-the-scenes techy dev blogs. Thanks Prism X! Big smile
Fix Lag
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-12-03 15:54:03 UTC
CCP Prism X wrote:
and now the TiDi you create in your staging systems will at least not be affecting players on the other side of the universe who have nothing to do with your pew pew. Blink


But I want horrible, mindless mission runners slaving away in some corner of highsec to suffer as I do through massive fleet fight lag: sharing the experience of nullsec warfare one extra slow tick at a time.

CCP mostly sucks at their job, but Veritas is a pretty cool dude.

Forlorn Wongraven
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#12 - 2013-12-03 15:54:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Forlorn Wongraven
CCP Prism X wrote:
If your fighting system is reinforced that shouldn't be an issue. This is also no more of an issue than it used to be, and now the TiDi you create in your staging systems will at least not be affecting players on the other side of the universe who have nothing to do with your pew pew. Blink

Pretty much all recent important battles actually happened as escalations upon escalations. So those systems are never reinforced. These seems a little bit stupid, although the first idea is actually pretty good.

Winner ATXI , 3rd place ATXII, winner ATXIII, 2nd ATXIV - follow me on twitter: @ForlornW

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#13 - 2013-12-03 15:55:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Weaselior
CCP Prism X wrote:

If your fighting system is reinforced that shouldn't be an issue. This is also no more of an issue than it used to be, and now the TiDi you create in your staging systems will at least not be affecting players on the other side of the universe who have nothing to do with your pew pew. Blink

And of course more nullsec nodes mean smaller pockets grouped together.

The bolded part concerns me. It makes a certain amount of sense to avoid inconveniencing the three people in some system in Solidude for reasons they don't understand, sure. However it also makes a great deal of sense when you have a cluster of systems expected to be used heavily to offload the issues caused in those systems to unused systems in buttfuck nowhere as a sort of heat sink - it seems to me that it is better to be inconveniencing three ratters in Solitude because of 1000 people in nullsec than doubly inconveniencing those 1000 people in nullsec.

I don't mean to criticize the work you've done here - this all looks extremely impressive. I'm just concerned that it's assumptions on nullsec battles are not correct and may wind up creating more inconvenience overall in certain situations.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

GeeShizzle MacCloud
#14 - 2013-12-03 15:56:01 UTC
exceptional work there Prism! hopefully tidi will be spread in a more understandable manner and the cluster pre-mapper will act in a more elegant way!

<3
Kimimaro Yoga
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#15 - 2013-12-03 15:56:36 UTC
The many systems with massive lag in one area problem is semi-solveable by simply buying more regular not-crazy-expensive servers, and thus reducing the total # of systems per server. While I hate crawling through tidi to get to a fight, well on the one hand it is fairer if everyone traveling to a fight is getting there at the same speed. Minimizing the chances of one fleet traveling without tidi while their opponents are crushed by it. And on the other hand... taking gates is for poor people anyways. Get more titans. :P

Unrelated question for Prism X:
Why is it that the Empire nodes have so much more peak traffic than the nullsec systems? Is this to compensate for the occasional extreme swings in nullsec load (huge unexpected fights) that have no highsec equivalent, or something else?

Now recruiting: http://dogfacedesign.com/index.php/Recruiting-Posters/recruiting-poster-patr3

CCP Prism X
C C P
C C P Alliance
#16 - 2013-12-03 15:57:20 UTC
There seems to be an image missing there right now and some problem with our CDN. Hopefully that will get resolved soon, but it's why there's no "visualization" for the splitting process. Just a table of stats.
Oh Takashawa
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#17 - 2013-12-03 15:58:12 UTC
Kimimaro Yoga wrote:
Unrelated question for Prism X:
Why is it that the Empire nodes have so much more peak traffic than the nullsec systems? Is this to compensate for the occasional extreme swings in nullsec load (huge unexpected fights) that have no highsec equivalent, or something else?

I'm gonna guess higher average population, higher traffic, higher market activity - more of everything, on average, than most nullsec systems.
Aquila Sagitta
Blue-Fire
#18 - 2013-12-03 16:01:27 UTC
How is this being applied to wh systems?
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#19 - 2013-12-03 16:03:57 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
CCP Prism X wrote:

If your fighting system is reinforced that shouldn't be an issue. This is also no more of an issue than it used to be, and now the TiDi you create in your staging systems will at least not be affecting players on the other side of the universe who have nothing to do with your pew pew. Blink

And of course more nullsec nodes mean smaller pockets grouped together.

The bolded part concerns me. It makes a certain amount of sense to avoid inconveniencing the three people in some system in Solidude for reasons they don't understand, sure. However it also makes a great deal of sense when you have a cluster of systems expected to be used heavily to offload the issues caused in those systems to unused systems in buttfuck nowhere as a sort of heat sink - it seems to me that it is better to be inconveniencing three ratters in Solitude because of 1000 people in nullsec than doubly inconveniencing those 1000 people in nullsec.

I don't mean to criticize the work you've done here - this all looks extremely impressive. I'm just concerned that it's assumptions on nullsec battles are not correct and may wind up creating more inconvenience overall in certain situations.


afaik from the dev blog it wont work exactly as you would say. if your staging close to a hostiles staging then upon downtime when the server runs a new premapping it may identify the staging systems as load hotspots and could well at the last splitting to discrete servers decide to split your staging and the hostiles staging to different servers.

if u plan on changing alliance / coalition staging once every day after downtime then i guess you could still grief in your original way.

Prism... the pre-loader to split the cluster load runs every downtime right?
Koban Agalder
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2013-12-03 16:05:13 UTC
So where WH ends in this big colorfull picture ?

We had experienced some TiDi recently :P Hopefully this last way of nullbears affecting WH will be solved!

James Arget for CSM 8! http://csm.fcftw.org 

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