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Eve Down Under Bombshell: No Sov overhaul until at least Winter 2014

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Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#361 - 2013-12-03 06:03:12 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
but progodlegend will turn the tide

You seem obsessed with Progodlegend... secret crush?

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#362 - 2013-12-03 08:47:54 UTC
Laserak wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
So, Dinsdale, how do you reconcile that assertion you just made with the fact that the people most loudly pushing for a change in sov are the Goons themselves?

Or do you just ignore that minor inconvenience?


Fix sov dammit, the current system is pretty terrible. Hitpoint based objectives and timezone issues are my personal pet peeves.



Agreed. MAssive HP pools on ALL targets promote only a few massive fights. Some targets could be kept that way but more of smaller targets should be added that do not need 50K dps to bring them down before you get bored. MOre targets for smaller gangs, creating faster response smaller fights.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#363 - 2013-12-03 13:12:11 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Condition of space is a part of sov and one of the problems with it. It also happens to be directly linked with highsec, imagine that.


Really, so lets try and add more people the 10% TiDi, node crashing fights. Yeah that's the ticket that will fix SoV and make it interesting. P


Has nothing to do with your other post, I'll wait until you're done moving goal posts before we discuss anything other than nerfing highsec.

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La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#364 - 2013-12-03 13:24:47 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:

Well, when you shift parts of highsec into tight controls, you reduce the quantity of trade as not everybody will have access to said trade.

This reduces one of the core isk sinks in the game. If you don't think a huge amount of ISK is sinked out of the game by a high quantity of trade -- you are wrong.

Meanwhile -- mission runners -- who are a huge ISK faucet, are unaffected by your change by and large, as once they have access to an agent they can freely run it over and over.

Furthermore, there is no incentive to target a mission runner by and large. They don't carry loot on them -- it is ISK and loyalty points. You can't gank it away from them.

When producing, you are a lucrative target. True -- you could hire freighter services to sustain the risk for you, but that will just bite into your profits over time, and eventually you should just transport yourself.

Serious industrialists undock. And they function as an ISK sink throughout. Not only do they undock -- but they pose a target that mission runners never will.

By screwing with highsec production without buffing nullsec production...and furthermore, basically leaving mission runner faucets untouched, all you do is increase inflation significantly.


This won't decrease the trade sink at all as stuff will still be dieing and still being bought. Access is still pretty easy to get because at the least it'd require an office in a station with slots or faction standing/corporation standing. Its easy to address mission runners too because you can do simple things like shift mission payouts from bounties to LP as needed or make mission deadspace pockets count as low/nullsec.

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S'No Flake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#365 - 2013-12-03 13:46:22 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
The easiest way to apply a quick fix to nullsec would be nerfing highsec. Remove station slots from NPC corp members, reduce the amount of highsec slots to the same amount available to unupgraded outposts, and only allow station slot access to people who have offices there. The rest of highsec production/research can be switched to POS. That would make production/research more viable for nullsec and can be scaled so production is worth doing in lowsec.

It also adds content to highsec as wardecs will be more significant because there are assets people can threaten/defend.


So, San Francisco will have less pubs, hotels, offices, etc than Anchorage because all the gold and diamonds are up there and people should move up.

Oh wait, this is a game and comparing anything in game with RL it's useless.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#366 - 2013-12-03 13:50:13 UTC
S'No Flake wrote:
Oh wait, this is a game and comparing anything in game with RL it's useless.

Yep.

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S'No Flake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#367 - 2013-12-03 14:35:32 UTC
La Nariz wrote:

~Throws a ~Highsec Tantrum~ over discussing nerfing highsec.[/i]


Seriously... repeating the same thing 5 times doesn't make you look smart ... neither fun...

You know ... parrots look fun and eye candy but beside repeating the same thing over and over ... not much.
On the good site ... some parrots are smarter than others :)
S'No Flake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#368 - 2013-12-03 14:45:44 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

Except for the fact that there are two (three? not sure if the third one got converted back) L4 agents in Osmon for SOE compared to all of one in X-7, meaning that a highsec dude is able to stack missions and earn way more purchasing power than the nullsec dude can

1. No there is only 1 lvl 4 combat agent in Osmon for SOE.
2. Stacking Combat missions hardly makes a difference, it might save you a couple of jumps, however the time to do said mission still matters.
3. SOE income is a very short lived thing due to a new release of ships designed for Low Security use.
4. Risk has been significantly increased due to the popularity providing a very easy hunting ground for Gankers.

So.... Osmon is not a magical font of all isk in EVE. It's certainly not better than Null Sec ratting when Null Sec is done right.
Also, oh no, High Sec can make an income! We must Nerf them till they are so poor they can't afford to do anything if they live in highsec! Because, really, that's what you are coming off like.
It's blatantly obvious you aren't interested in discussing actual figures and are just trying to scream anyone suggesting that High Sec doesn't need a nerf out of the thread. There is nothing wrong with High Sec players being able to turn a good income.

As I've said in a number of threads, all systems need more overall content, (Missions needing a redesign in my mind also). To allow for higher population density, and sure, Null needs buffs in certain areas. Buffing however does not = power creep. Power creep is when you buff something because something else is better. Not because something is poor. And in this case Null is poor in certain aspects and needs a significant buff to those.


Highsec is better than nullsec so...


Facts... or you know ... arguments to combat his points?
Or ... just because you said so it's all that it's needed to make it true?
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#369 - 2013-12-03 14:46:18 UTC
S'No Flake wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
The easiest way to apply a quick fix to nullsec would be nerfing highsec. Remove station slots from NPC corp members, reduce the amount of highsec slots to the same amount available to unupgraded outposts, and only allow station slot access to people who have offices there. The rest of highsec production/research can be switched to POS. That would make production/research more viable for nullsec and can be scaled so production is worth doing in lowsec.

It also adds content to highsec as wardecs will be more significant because there are assets people can threaten/defend.


So, San Francisco will have less pubs, hotels, offices, etc than Anchorage because all the gold and diamonds are up there and people should move up.

Oh wait, this is a game and comparing anything in game with RL it's useless.


Give it up.
You are dealing with a goon, and one of their leaders, who stands to benefit hugely on a personal level when CCP hammers high sec again (or even more so when CCP makes high sec stations conquerable, because the PoCo mess was just the start).

It is amazing how quickly these guys can turn "current sov is bad" into "high sec is too easy rich".

I also enjoy reading all the posts from newly minted renters about the risk/return of null sec, given that they did not lift a finger to conquer the space they now rent, now surrounded in a nice warm blue blanket, that makes Providence look like Somalia in comparison.

But sadly, what the goon leadership wants will inevitably be implemented. The null sec cartels' political connections on the CSM and with CCP "backchannels" is far too powerful to be stopped.
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#370 - 2013-12-03 14:47:19 UTC
S'No Flake wrote:

So, San Francisco will have less pubs, hotels, offices, etc than Anchorage because all the gold and diamonds are up there and people should move up.

Oh wait, this is a game and comparing anything in game with RL it's useless.
Wow! You went out of your way to put down his point. So far out, that you actually made his point for him. Good job! Lol

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#371 - 2013-12-03 15:08:47 UTC
S'No Flake wrote:

Facts... or you know ... arguments to combat his points?
Or ... just because you said so it's all that it's needed to make it true?


I have already combated his points to the point he started throwing a ~Highsec Tantrum~.

I will give you a fact and let you glean the rest of them from the thread as an exercise for your own self improvement.

Sobaseki, one highsec system, has more industrial potential than entire regions of nullsec.

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S'No Flake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#372 - 2013-12-03 15:09:06 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
I don't know a single mission runner who realistically claims that it's more profitable than nullsec activity.

It isn't.

I only see a singular group/alliance claiming that in this thread, which they seem to be doing under guise while they beg/ask for free gimme gimmes.


You know one now.

Smaller initial outlay, much less attention paid, nearly comparable income. (especially the LP)

I can multibox a trading/hauling/PI alt and a ninja salvager while missioning without any real strain on my attention to further increase my isk/hr.

It's more profitable than finding and running anoms while having to scout and watch my ass. Easier too, I am less likely to take a billion isk hit from losing my ship, since it's just about impossible to actually die in highsec now if you are awake.

I do this with 2, sometimes 3 wardecs active, and I have NEVER once died doing it. Almost as much isk, next to no risk.


Because there are no intel channels in 0.0 alliances reporting any and every ship seen around.
You just have to keep an eye on that blinky header and bubble the hell the gates for those ratting systems.

Is not like you are running wormhole sites without a local chat, intel channel, dscan every 3 seconds ... having probes out watching for newly spawned WHs and the 10 ships cloaky gang coming trough it to ruin your day.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#373 - 2013-12-03 15:14:13 UTC
S'No Flake wrote:


Because there are no intel channels in 0.0 alliances reporting any and every ship seen around.
You just have to keep an eye on that blinky header and bubble the hell the gates for those ratting systems.

Is not like you are running wormhole sites without a local chat, intel channel, dscan every 3 seconds ... having probes out watching for newly spawned WHs and the 10 ships cloaky gang coming trough it to ruin your day.


Ah I see you are highsec-alt-number-n we already went over this point and it came down to:

removing quality of life improvements is a bad idea and historically has not worked well.

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Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#374 - 2013-12-03 15:22:39 UTC
S'No Flake wrote:


Because there are no intel channels in 0.0 alliances reporting any and every ship seen around.
You just have to keep an eye on that blinky header and bubble the hell the gates for those ratting systems.


I find i8t really annoying that high sec people try to use "omg intel channels" when comparing null sec isk making to high sec. You know what intel means, it means STOP RATTING SOMEONE IS COMING. ie, the thing you high sec types always bring up when talking about isk making is one of the things that CUTS isk making in null lol.

Intel channels don't help you when the people coming to kill you logged off in system or come though a wormhole into your system (or a system nearby where there is no one in there to report intel).

The thing high sec people also miss is that an intel channel is a human activity, unlike CONCORD, which is automated.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#375 - 2013-12-03 15:25:36 UTC
S'No Flake wrote:

Because there are no intel channels in 0.0 alliances reporting any and every ship seen around.
You just have to keep an eye on that blinky header and bubble the hell the gates for those ratting systems.

"what are defensive strategies made obsolete by changes in Rubicon, alex?"

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
S'No Flake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#376 - 2013-12-03 15:44:48 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Okay I am back to this one, I had to pick some low-hanging fruit in replies below this one first

Nevyn Auscent wrote:

1. No there is only 1 lvl 4 combat agent in Osmon for SOE.
2. Stacking Combat missions hardly makes a difference, it might save you a couple of jumps, however the time to do said mission still matters.
3. SOE income is a very short lived thing due to a new release of ships designed for Low Security use.
4. Risk has been significantly increased due to the popularity providing a very easy hunting ground for Gankers.


stacking combat missions is extremely effective because it's not just the mission runner who is doing it -- it's the mission runner and a variable and asymptotically infinite number of additional accounts in alpha clone pods who leech standings by being in fleet with the mission runner, then go and bookmark the combat sites and come back, allowing for, again, an asymptotically infinite number of missions that can be chained together

furthermore, this behavior is often botted, even if the mission running is not, and it's very difficult to differentiate from legitimate play

regarding SOE income -- SOE LP has been 2000 isk/LP since time immemorial, there's little indication that the addition of additional rewards is somehow going to lower this conversion rated

Alpha clone pods do not speed up doing the mission. You still have to kill the same amount of stuff. And if we are counting multiple accounts, hourly income is divided by the number of accounts used, making it an extremely low reward activity.

Bookmarking a mission does not allow returning to the mission after it is completed, the site despawns.

There are the rare missions that you leave uncompleted to farm the bounties. but you can only have one mission from the agent doing that, and can only do it once a day. So you have to be bouncing between 30-40 agents to do that. Which is entirely different from 'stacking missions'. And still isn't that profitable.

Yes, SOE LP has always been moderately high, no argument there, however it spiked significantly about the mark you posted due to the initial demand for SOE ships. We will see where it settles to in a month as the additional farming is likely to have a market impact.

None of this makes Osmon magically print Isk. It does take risk, it does have cost, and it is not the highest income activity in the game even then. Null having a lot of significantly higher incomes. Like every single Null Lvl 4 agent.

ah yes let me count the varied and sundry risks in highsec

* wardecs which have a polite 24 hour timer and are completely avoidable
* lone suicide gankers, fended off by activating your hardeners while traveling
* kill rights, uh huh

the bookmark is for the mission runner to use to go to the new site
the missions chosen are blitz missions to maximize LP gain and with the new MTUs you can just hurf one out and bookmark it and scoop it later


Neah, 0.0 is much more difficult:
1. intel channels
2. bubbles on gates (i know crow can go past them now but, you still know they are coming)
3. lvl3 missions giving better LP than HS lvl4 (i've been there in outer ring, i know)
4. DED sites giving way better stuff in return
5. belt rats you can't compare with HS
and a lot more stuff.... even for miners/gas harvesters if they feel the need to do it.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#377 - 2013-12-03 15:52:56 UTC
S'No Flake wrote:


Neah, 0.0 is much more difficult:
1. intel channels
2. bubbles on gates (i know crow can go past them now but, you still know they are coming)


how do you know?
Quote:

3. lvl3 missions giving better LP than HS lvl4 (i've been there in outer ring, i know)


This will be relevant when we can bubble high sec stations
Quote:

4. DED sites giving way better stuff in return


Another high seccer myth. DED sites give RANDOM rewards. Is mission or high sec incursion rewards random?

Quote:

5. belt rats you can't compare with HS
and a lot more stuff.... even for miners/gas harvesters if they feel the need to do it.



Belt rats lol. Some one seems stuck in 2009.
S'No Flake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#378 - 2013-12-03 15:53:24 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
S'No Flake wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
The easiest way to apply a quick fix to nullsec would be nerfing highsec. Remove station slots from NPC corp members, reduce the amount of highsec slots to the same amount available to unupgraded outposts, and only allow station slot access to people who have offices there. The rest of highsec production/research can be switched to POS. That would make production/research more viable for nullsec and can be scaled so production is worth doing in lowsec.

It also adds content to highsec as wardecs will be more significant because there are assets people can threaten/defend.


So, San Francisco will have less pubs, hotels, offices, etc than Anchorage because all the gold and diamonds are up there and people should move up.

Oh wait, this is a game and comparing anything in game with RL it's useless.


Give it up.
You are dealing with a goon, and one of their leaders, who stands to benefit hugely on a personal level when CCP hammers high sec again (or even more so when CCP makes high sec stations conquerable, because the PoCo mess was just the start).


No... it's fun... why give it up when you can bring a bunch of goons in the forums crying like babies when you take their candy? :)
S'No Flake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#379 - 2013-12-03 15:57:09 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
I have already combated his points to the point he started throwing a ~Highsec Tantrum~.


La Nariz wrote:
Ah I see you are highsec-alt-number-n we already went over this point and it came down to:



Ahh, the parrot again...
S'No Flake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#380 - 2013-12-03 16:03:14 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
S'No Flake wrote:


Because there are no intel channels in 0.0 alliances reporting any and every ship seen around.
You just have to keep an eye on that blinky header and bubble the hell the gates for those ratting systems.


I find i8t really annoying that high sec people try to use "omg intel channels" when comparing null sec isk making to high sec. You know what intel means, it means STOP RATTING SOMEONE IS COMING. ie, the thing you high sec types always bring up when talking about isk making is one of the things that CUTS isk making in null lol.

Intel channels don't help you when the people coming to kill you logged off in system or come though a wormhole into your system (or a system nearby where there is no one in there to report intel).

The thing high sec people also miss is that an intel channel is a human activity, unlike CONCORD, which is automated.





Actually, if you check my posts i didn't compare anything with HS.
I did it with WHs and NPC null but i still find it fun how this goons crybabies complain about HS when you can make more isk even in NPC null than HS.