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The great missile debate

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TheMercenaryKing
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#21 - 2013-12-03 14:38:25 UTC
IIshira wrote:
Odithia wrote:

Btw while we're talking missiles : I want my tracking disruptor to mess with missile guidance.


No...

If they want to make a "Missile Guidance Distributor" I'm fine with that but just on principle a module that affects gun turrets shouldn't do anything with missiles. That would be like having Gyrostabilizers boost missile damage and ROF.



Just putting this out there, but why are there modules that give bonuses to specific weapon systems. There is one Tracking Enhancer that affects all turrets, so why not one mod?
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#22 - 2013-12-03 14:46:25 UTC  |  Edited by: IIshira
DHB WildCat wrote:
1) Selectable damage type is the ONLY saving grace for todays missile user. however CCP refuse to change the damn kinetic bonus to an universal one so we are forced to use kinetic if we want high damage..... however......

2) Gallente FOTM. T2 gallente have near 90% kinetic resists base.... freaking stupid. Missile boats now have to change damage type to either EM or Exp to do any sort of damage to them...... but wait......

3) RLML and RHML .... okay deimos on field switching to em damage.... 40 seconds later, you're either dead or ran away, cause you CANT change ammo types to be effective in 40 seconds. Or you can continue to shoot kinetic at the diemos as it laughs at you until you die.

4) CNR has more applicable damage to frigs and cruisers with cruise missiles than with RHML. This is stupid. Yes the ROF is faster on the RHML but how the heck is a BS sized weapon doing more per hit on a frig than a cruiser sized weapon!? WTF.

5) The Phoenix...... nuff said what a joke.

6) Torps even with a Vindi buddy webbing a hac you do jack all damage to it. Maybe we need to take a look at the size factor of ships and eliminating it as factor for missile damage, leaving speed and resistances the factors to missile damage. This would bring them in line with turrets and still be a little nerfed compared to them since a turret can still hit a ship for full effect based on transverse reguardless speed, while a missile would still be based on the speed. If a vindi can do full damage with neutrons to a frig sitting at zero why cant torps? Also doesnt it make sense that a larger explosion radius would in essence do more damage to an area than a smaller one?

I have a lot of other examples and references, I could go on for days. I just wish you guys would start taking some more outside input again. Your view on certain things are way to narrowed and focused to be able to see everything.

WildCat


1) Not all Caldari ships have a specific bonus to kinetic damage.

2) Besides your 90% kinetic resists being too high every ship class has it's strengths and weaknesses. It's OKAY if one race of ships has strong resists to one type of damage. That's what makes Eve fun. You have to figure out what you're going up against and plan accordingly.

3) Agreed.. The new RLML sucks

4) Again the RLML sucks. No argument from me on this

5) I don't fly caps so I will refrain from comment on this.

6) Wait you complained above about RLML saying "how the heck is a BS sized weapon doing more per hit on a frig than a cruiser sized weapon!?" but you're complaining here about battleship weapons not doing enough damage to cruisers.... Why would you be shooting a cruiser with missiles designed for battleship or lager targets??? Again this CCP isn't going to change this. They're making it where certain classes of ships are most effective against specific targets. Just like dreadnoughts were made less effective against battleships. CCP isn't going to remove the size factor for missiles because that would go against ships having specific roles. Your point with the Vindicator is only because it's role has bonuses to webs. A Megathron wouldn't be able to hit a frigate orbiting at close range.


Eve is about variety and making choices. You chose what ship you fly, what modules you fit in it, what ammo you use, and how you fly it. If you chose wisely you'll end up on more killmails than lossmails. It's OKAY that missiles don't work like guns... It's OKAY that things are different. If you don't like how missiles work then don't train them. The worse thing that could happen to Eve is all ships and weapons worked the same.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#23 - 2013-12-03 15:07:14 UTC
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
IIshira wrote:
Odithia wrote:

Btw while we're talking missiles : I want my tracking disruptor to mess with missile guidance.


No...

If they want to make a "Missile Guidance Distributor" I'm fine with that but just on principle a module that affects gun turrets shouldn't do anything with missiles. That would be like having Gyrostabilizers boost missile damage and ROF.



Just putting this out there, but why are there modules that give bonuses to specific weapon systems. There is one Tracking Enhancer that affects all turrets, so why not one mod?


Point taken with the 3 different DPS mods for turrets but does this "Tracking Enhancer" that you speak of effect missiles? Smile
Varukka Sault
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#24 - 2013-12-04 07:13:01 UTC
Rockets/light missiles are ok. Cruises are good. Everything else in the missile line is crap. Torps and hams are almost viable vs bigger targets.

One could argue that they simple require support and then they shine, but so does every other weapon system. And those aren't crap without support.

Oh and the other systems don't suffer from working as intended 6 second lag.

I understood the Heavey missile nerf, they just took it too far considering they had medium turret buffs in the schedule.

There's no practical reason to ever bring a missile boat if other ships are available. MAYBE a cerb for gang fleet work, maybe. (Bombers are a unique niche not considered).

Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#25 - 2013-12-04 08:47:48 UTC
DHB WildCat wrote:


3) RLML and RHML .... okay deimos on field switching to em damage.... 40 seconds later, you're either dead or ran away, cause you CANT change ammo types to be effective in 40 seconds. Or you can continue to shoot kinetic at the diemos as it laughs at you until you die.



so eerrm you have both thermal and kinetic resists, and the diemos isn't killing you quick, and the pilot of a diemos can't change damage type.

With a droneboat its literally see whats on the field, go back to pos, get appropriate drones, hope he's continuing to ignore d-scan.
Uppsy Daisy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#26 - 2013-12-04 09:34:44 UTC
I sense Chessur incoming..
The Spod
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2013-12-04 09:53:33 UTC
RHML 40sec is a good idea.
HM is the bad part in it.

Fix HM, you fix RHML. If you were dealing 1500-ish dps during the overheated rapid phase (HM damage scaled to buffed long range turret equivalent), with good application, it suddenly is not at all bad.

HM fix first, then see how RHML turns out. RHML has the potential to make missile ships unique in fleet warfare, and to finally give a relevant solution to the travel time that has been messing with missile fleets for ever.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2013-12-04 10:27:33 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
DHB WildCat wrote:


3) RLML and RHML .... okay deimos on field switching to em damage.... 40 seconds later, you're either dead or ran away, cause you CANT change ammo types to be effective in 40 seconds. Or you can continue to shoot kinetic at the diemos as it laughs at you until you die.



so eerrm you have both thermal and kinetic resists, and the diemos isn't killing you quick, and the pilot of a diemos can't change damage type.

With a droneboat its literally see whats on the field, go back to pos, get appropriate drones, hope he's continuing to ignore d-scan.


That has changed now with mobile depots.... but its still a minimum 1 minute to change drones in most cases (ie the depot deployment time)
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#29 - 2013-12-04 10:45:49 UTC
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
I sense Chessur incoming..


Heh

To be honest, RLMLs can die a death, they were far too effective against all sizes of targets in their previous state.

HMLs and HAMs however, need looking at.

HAMs are basically fine except that they need a slight damage application bump, nothing huge, just a small one.

HMLs however, well aren't we the inbred cousin of a weapon system, they need improved damage application and raw DPS to make them competitive.
Rab See
Stellar Dynamics
#30 - 2013-12-04 13:19:36 UTC
IIshira wrote:
Odithia wrote:

Btw while we're talking missiles : I want my tracking disruptor to mess with missile guidance.


No...

If they want to make a "Missile Guidance Distributor" I'm fine with that but just on principle a module that affects gun turrets shouldn't do anything with missiles. That would be like having Gyrostabilizers boost missile damage and ROF.



Or better - tracking disrupt range, tracking, or explosion velocity - script chooses which.

As for missiles:
Moan about kinetic. Minmatar are easy targets. Gallente harder ... natural enemy sees your bonused missiles.
Rab See
Stellar Dynamics
#31 - 2013-12-04 13:29:46 UTC
DHB WildCat wrote:

.. the usual crap about missiles ...

6) Torps even with a Vindi buddy webbing a hac you do jack all damage to it. Maybe we need to take a look at the size factor of ships and eliminating it as factor for missile damage, leaving speed and resistances the factors to missile damage.

... missiles are not turrets ...

... goes on and on ...

WildCat


Stop using a vindicator to hold a target down if you are using missiles. Use a Golem. Or a Huggin. If its smaller paint it bigger, if its fast, make it slow. Missiles != Guns.

Or lets make missiles miss a lot, or restrict their damage type to therm/kin, maybe EM/therm. Lets make optimal damage range 5k, and then fall off as range increases.

You want all the benefits of guns, then take the fking drawbacks you prick.
DHB WildCat
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
#32 - 2013-12-04 13:42:12 UTC  |  Edited by: DHB WildCat
Rab See wrote:
DHB WildCat wrote:

.. the usual crap about missiles ...

6) Torps even with a Vindi buddy webbing a hac you do jack all damage to it. Maybe we need to take a look at the size factor of ships and eliminating it as factor for missile damage, leaving speed and resistances the factors to missile damage.

... missiles are not turrets ...

... goes on and on ...

WildCat


Stop using a vindicator to hold a target down if you are using missiles. Use a Golem. Or a Huggin. If its smaller paint it bigger, if its fast, make it slow. Missiles != Guns.

Or lets make missiles miss a lot, or restrict their damage type to therm/kin, maybe EM/therm. Lets make optimal damage range 5k, and then fall off as range increases.

You want all the benefits of guns, then take the fking drawbacks you prick.



That's fine....
First the vindi is an example. I'll use a geddon then. The geddon can apply FULL damage to a tackled target. Any missile ship CANNOT. even if it's fully tackled unless using frigate sized weapons.

Second, I agree we fully need a ew that effects missiles. It is completely unbelievable that ccp hasn't implemented this yet.

Third bring it on. I don't care if missiles get changed to two damage types only. At least this way we can get a bonus to two damage types instead of being the ONLY WEAPON SYSTEM THAT GET A BONUS TO ONE........ ONE........ ONE FREAKING DAMAGE TYPE.
Rab See
Stellar Dynamics
#33 - 2013-12-04 14:36:10 UTC
DHB WildCat wrote:
Rab See wrote:
DHB WildCat wrote:

.. the usual crap about missiles ...

6) Torps even with a Vindi buddy webbing a hac you do jack all damage to it. Maybe we need to take a look at the size factor of ships and eliminating it as factor for missile damage, leaving speed and resistances the factors to missile damage.

... missiles are not turrets ...

... goes on and on ...

WildCat


Stop using a vindicator to hold a target down if you are using missiles. Use a Golem. Or a Huggin. If its smaller paint it bigger, if its fast, make it slow. Missiles != Guns.

Or lets make missiles miss a lot, or restrict their damage type to therm/kin, maybe EM/therm. Lets make optimal damage range 5k, and then fall off as range increases.

You want all the benefits of guns, then take the fking drawbacks you prick.



That's fine....
First the vindi is an example. I'll use a geddon then. The geddon can apply FULL damage to a tackled target. Any missile ship CANNOT. even if it's fully tackled unless using frigate sized weapons.

Second, I agree we fully need a ew that effects missiles. It is completely unbelievable that ccp hasn't implemented this yet.

Third bring it on. I don't care if missiles get changed to two damage types only. At least this way we can get a bonus to two damage types instead of being the ONLY WEAPON SYSTEM THAT GET A BONUS TO ONE........ ONE........ ONE FREAKING DAMAGE TYPE.



Good - a reasoned response. Let them have 5k optimal. Lose 10% damage thereafter per 5k, always hit in optimal, but miss as range goes out. Make them EM/Kin only. Have mixes of EM/Kin for example to increase optimal/falloff etc.

Now, change gallente ewar to sensor damp and missile disruption. Disruption scripts change range and explosion radius.

What you get is another type of gun. It just fires things that take time to hit. Luckily, you will have to close to something reasonable, like every other weapon, to actually apply damage, so it will be nigh on instant.
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#34 - 2013-12-04 15:17:57 UTC
Rab See wrote:
[quote=DHB WildCat]
You want all the benefits of guns, then take the fking drawbacks you prick.


Oh he mad.
Naoru Kozan
Perkone
Caldari State
#35 - 2013-12-04 20:09:07 UTC
Light missiles and rockets are fine.
HAMs are also fine, just carry Standard Crash and stop shooting RAGE ammo at everything. HMLs.....lol yeah they are **** (seriously, precision cruise missiles apply damage better than Fury HMLS). RLMLs well they sort of work in a gang. Rapid Heavies....yeah cruise missiles are better in nearly every way. Torps I can't ref really comment on due to lack of experience using them.
Chi Garu
Perkone
Caldari State
#36 - 2013-12-04 20:49:17 UTC
Lots of contentious issues in this thread with the possible exception of the kinetic missile bonus on hulls being terrible.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#37 - 2013-12-04 21:19:32 UTC
Rab See wrote:
DHB WildCat wrote:
Rab See wrote:
DHB WildCat wrote:

.. the usual crap about missiles ...

6) Torps even with a Vindi buddy webbing a hac you do jack all damage to it. Maybe we need to take a look at the size factor of ships and eliminating it as factor for missile damage, leaving speed and resistances the factors to missile damage.

... missiles are not turrets ...

... goes on and on ...

WildCat


Stop using a vindicator to hold a target down if you are using missiles. Use a Golem. Or a Huggin. If its smaller paint it bigger, if its fast, make it slow. Missiles != Guns.

Or lets make missiles miss a lot, or restrict their damage type to therm/kin, maybe EM/therm. Lets make optimal damage range 5k, and then fall off as range increases.

You want all the benefits of guns, then take the fking drawbacks you prick.



That's fine....
First the vindi is an example. I'll use a geddon then. The geddon can apply FULL damage to a tackled target. Any missile ship CANNOT. even if it's fully tackled unless using frigate sized weapons.

Second, I agree we fully need a ew that effects missiles. It is completely unbelievable that ccp hasn't implemented this yet.

Third bring it on. I don't care if missiles get changed to two damage types only. At least this way we can get a bonus to two damage types instead of being the ONLY WEAPON SYSTEM THAT GET A BONUS TO ONE........ ONE........ ONE FREAKING DAMAGE TYPE.



Good - a reasoned response. Let them have 5k optimal. Lose 10% damage thereafter per 5k, always hit in optimal, but miss as range goes out. Make them EM/Kin only. Have mixes of EM/Kin for example to increase optimal/falloff etc.

Now, change gallente ewar to sensor damp and missile disruption. Disruption scripts change range and explosion radius.

What you get is another type of gun. It just fires things that take time to hit. Luckily, you will have to close to something reasonable, like every other weapon, to actually apply damage, so it will be nigh on instant.


Why don't you just use an AB to "EWAR" the missiles? You don`t even need orbitting skill, fly in a straight like with AB speed increase and it will be enough to cancel some of the damage and unlike gunnery, there is fuckall a missile ship can do to counter your "skillfull" piloting like you could to to help your tracking. Missile are easy mode to attack with and defend against. No amount of piloting skill can help because just moving in any direction give the same effect as a super good orbit.
Ginger Barbarella
#38 - 2013-12-04 21:30:06 UTC
Oooh! Ooooh!! I've got a novel idea!!!

If you're fighting an opponent that has 95% kinetic resists--- wait for it--- don't use freaking kinetic missiles!!

inorite, wild idea!!!

(must be whiney first-world-problems week on EveO forums)

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
DHB WildCat
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
#39 - 2013-12-04 22:45:32 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Oooh! Ooooh!! I've got a novel idea!!!

If you're fighting an opponent that has 95% kinetic resists--- wait for it--- don't use freaking kinetic missiles!!

inorite, wild idea!!!

(must be whiney first-world-problems week on EveO forums)



/me begins to say something about 40 second reloads .......... But instead I won't feed the obvious trolls.
Rab See
Stellar Dynamics
#40 - 2013-12-04 23:22:20 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:


..... [HERE IT COMES]

Why don't you just use an AB to "EWAR" the missiles? You don`t even need orbitting skill, fly in a straight like with AB speed increase and it will be enough to cancel some of the damage and unlike gunnery, there is fuckall a missile ship can do to counter your "skillfull" piloting like you could to to help your tracking. Missile are easy mode to attack with and defend against. No amount of piloting skill can help because just moving in any direction give the same effect as a super good orbit.



Aaaannnd there you have it. The counter to missiles is speed, EVERY ship can counter them. The counter to speed is a Web/Scram. Everyone in pvp uses them, except it appears, missile users. Too busy fitting tank, and cloaking devices.

So the skillful part is lost on you - hint - get a bloody web FFS - see what I wrote and READ IT. Huggin. PAINTS AND WEBS.

And the last thing we all know about missile boat pilots is .... they dont fly anything but solo. They want to engage with heavies at 70k for fear of being shot back at with their ubertanked ships. Heavies are fine, try artillery - range is 20k optimal. At 70k its a lucky 100 dps.

I FKING HATE MISSILE MOANERS. THE CRETINS OF THE GAME.