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Eve Down Under Bombshell: No Sov overhaul until at least Winter 2014

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Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#301 - 2013-12-03 01:40:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Promiscuous Female wrote:
there's little indication that the addition of additional rewards is somehow going to lower this conversion rated


Markets are self correcting. Should I cite this?

I don't know how many people here have taken economics 101

Basically, profits lower as other people discover the profits and equalize while undercutting each other in a competitive market. Complex stuff, I know....Roll
Stahlregen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#302 - 2013-12-03 01:41:16 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Stahlregen wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
I don't know a single mission runner who realistically claims that it's more profitable than nullsec activity.

It isn't.

I only see a singular group/alliance claiming that in this thread, which they seem to be doing under guise while they beg/ask for free gimme gimmes (which I find pathetic)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum


Let's look at the development of this thread.

It started out as people talking about sov mechanics, which is valid.

It progressed into people talking about how "terrible" the income in nullsec was. All of the people with this opinion are from the same group.

This complaining/whining was packaged along with suggestions to make nullsec more profitable. This group happens to have a lot of control over various spaces of nullsec.

Aka: Begging for free gimme gimmes.


~citation needed~


Read the thread.

I could quote every single post in the thread as a citation, but that would just double the length of the thread and probably make the moderators angry.


I too could also quote non existent comments and evidence to support my argument but I won't because they don't exist.

EVERY MORNING I WAKE UP AND OPEN PALM SLAM A VHS INTO THE SLOT. IT'S CHRONICLES OF RIDDICK AND RIGHT THEN AND THERE I START DOING THE MOVES ALONGSIDE THE MAIN CHARACTER, RIDDICK. I DO EVERY MOVE AND I DO EVERY MOVE HARD. MAKIN' WHOOSHING SOUNDS WHEN I SLAM DOWN SOME NECRO BASTARDS. NOT MANY CAN SAY THEY ESCAPED THE GALAXY'S MOST DANGEROUS PRISON. I CAN.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#303 - 2013-12-03 01:41:19 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Stahlregen wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
I don't know a single mission runner who realistically claims that it's more profitable than nullsec activity.

It isn't.

I only see a singular group/alliance claiming that in this thread, which they seem to be doing under guise while they beg/ask for free gimme gimmes (which I find pathetic)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum


Let's look at the development of this thread.

It started out as people talking about sov mechanics, which is valid.

It progressed into people talking about how "terrible" the income in nullsec was. All of the people with this opinion are from the same group.

This complaining/whining was packaged along with suggestions to make nullsec more profitable. This group happens to have a lot of control over various spaces of nullsec.

Aka: Begging for free gimme gimmes.


~citation needed~


Read the thread.

I could quote every single post in the thread as a citation, but that would just double the length of the thread and probably make the moderators angry.


~Citation Needed~

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#304 - 2013-12-03 01:41:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Pinky Hops wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
I don't know a single mission runner who realistically claims that it's more profitable than nullsec activity.

It isn't.

I only see a singular group/alliance claiming that in this thread, which they seem to be doing under guise while they beg/ask for free gimme gimmes.


You know one now.

Smaller initial outlay, much less attention paid, nearly comparable income. (especially the LP)


Ah ha. Nearly. So, basically. it's not as profitable as nullsec.

Got it.

Pinky, income level does not equal profit.

If you have more frequent losses, or are unable to generate income due to outside interference for long periods of time, your actual profit can be much less over time than a slightly lower income but safer environment can generate.

I think that was the point he was trying to make.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#305 - 2013-12-03 01:42:14 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
there's little indication that the addition of additional rewards is somehow going to lower this conversion rated


Markets are self correcting. Should I cite this?

I don't know how many people here have taken economics 101

Basically, profits lower as other people discover the profits and equalize while undercutting each other in a competitive market. Complex stuff, I know....Roll

except that the demand for sisters probes and sisters launchers is so great that despite years and years and years of missioning, the conversion rate for SOE LP has always been >=2000 isk/LP

the very self-corrective force you are attempting to wedge into this thread like some sort of dead fish is responsible for keeping the prices of SOE ships high
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#306 - 2013-12-03 01:42:18 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
I don't know a single mission runner who realistically claims that it's more profitable than nullsec activity.

It isn't.

I only see a singular group/alliance claiming that in this thread, which they seem to be doing under guise while they beg/ask for free gimme gimmes.


You know one now.

Smaller initial outlay, much less attention paid, nearly comparable income. (especially the LP)


Ah ha. Nearly. So, basically. it's not as profitable as nullsec.

Got it.


Pound for pound, it's actually better.

Mostly because I don't have to spend time running around to find a limited resource (anoms). I just sit in a mission system and rat my ass off.

Especially after the battleship warp time nerf, which brutally hurt the nullsec guys, since they have to move around a whole lot more than I do.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#307 - 2013-12-03 01:43:21 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Okay I am back to this one, I had to pick some low-hanging fruit in replies below this one first

Nevyn Auscent wrote:

1. No there is only 1 lvl 4 combat agent in Osmon for SOE.
2. Stacking Combat missions hardly makes a difference, it might save you a couple of jumps, however the time to do said mission still matters.
3. SOE income is a very short lived thing due to a new release of ships designed for Low Security use.
4. Risk has been significantly increased due to the popularity providing a very easy hunting ground for Gankers.


stacking combat missions is extremely effective because it's not just the mission runner who is doing it -- it's the mission runner and a variable and asymptotically infinite number of additional accounts in alpha clone pods who leech standings by being in fleet with the mission runner, then go and bookmark the combat sites and come back, allowing for, again, an asymptotically infinite number of missions that can be chained together

furthermore, this behavior is often botted, even if the mission running is not, and it's very difficult to differentiate from legitimate play

regarding SOE income -- SOE LP has been 2000 isk/LP since time immemorial, there's little indication that the addition of additional rewards is somehow going to lower this conversion rated

Alpha clone pods do not speed up doing the mission. You still have to kill the same amount of stuff. And if we are counting multiple accounts, hourly income is divided by the number of accounts used, making it an extremely low reward activity.

Bookmarking a mission does not allow returning to the mission after it is completed, the site despawns.

There are the rare missions that you leave uncompleted to farm the bounties. but you can only have one mission from the agent doing that, and can only do it once a day. So you have to be bouncing between 30-40 agents to do that. Which is entirely different from 'stacking missions'. And still isn't that profitable.

Yes, SOE LP has always been moderately high, no argument there, however it spiked significantly about the mark you posted due to the initial demand for SOE ships. We will see where it settles to in a month as the additional farming is likely to have a market impact.

None of this makes Osmon magically print Isk. It does take risk, it does have cost, and it is not the highest income activity in the game even then. Null having a lot of significantly higher incomes. Like every single Null Lvl 4 agent.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#308 - 2013-12-03 01:44:04 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
there's little indication that the addition of additional rewards is somehow going to lower this conversion rated


Markets are self correcting. Should I cite this?

I don't know how many people here have taken economics 101

Basically, profits lower as other people discover the profits and equalize while undercutting each other in a competitive market. Complex stuff, I know....Roll

i did

then i took economics 102, 201, etc because im not a moron who thinks economics 101 is anything but make-believe stories to get you started understanding how behavior can be modeled and the like and is no more true than the idea than the incredibly simplified stories you were told about chemistry in grade school and virtually every axiom is selected according to "what will minimize the amount of math we expect hungover college freshmen to do" rather than a relationship to the real world

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#309 - 2013-12-03 01:44:07 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Except for the fact that there are two (three? not sure if the third one got converted back) L4 agents in Osmon for SOE compared to all of one in X-7


I actually agree that this is somewhat bullshit - but it would be easily fixable by just giving an extra agent or two to the nullsec region.

God knows it would help lower the prices faster.

But this is such an incredibly minor thing in the grand scheme of the nullsec/highsec debate that it is scant worth mentioning. The EVE economy is ******* huge. SoE ships are a tiny tiny tiny tiny minuscule fraction of it, and their extreme profitability is at best temporary.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#310 - 2013-12-03 01:46:16 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
there's little indication that the addition of additional rewards is somehow going to lower this conversion rated


Markets are self correcting. Should I cite this?

I don't know how many people here have taken economics 101

Basically, profits lower as other people discover the profits and equalize while undercutting each other in a competitive market. Complex stuff, I know....Roll

i did

then i took economics 102, 201, etc because im not a moron who thinks economics 101 is anything but make-believe stories to get you started understanding how behavior can be modeled and the like and is no more true than the idea than the incredibly simplified stories you were told about chemistry in grade school and virtually every axiom is selected according to "what will minimize the amount of math we expect hungover college freshmen to do" rather than a relationship to the real world


I guess you did poorly then, because the situation is incredibly simple. It's a highsec mission hub. You can't keep people "out" of it -- meaning there's no complex economic tactics like buying out smaller entities and forming a monopoly or oligopoly. It's just an agent you grab a mission from which is publicly open to anybody.

The more people take advantage of it, the more profits will lessen for that activity.

Sorry if this is going over your head.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#311 - 2013-12-03 01:48:43 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:

I guess you did poorly then, because the situation is incredibly simple. It's a highsec mission hub. You can't keep people "out" of it -- meaning there's no complex economic tactics like buying out smaller entities and forming a monopoly or oligopoly. It's just an agent you grab a mission from which is publicly open to anybody.

The more people take advantage of it, the more profits will lessen for that activity.

Sorry if this is going over your head.

i have yet to ever, once, see someone cite "econ 101" and then not say something immensely stupid about economics

you have not disappointed



Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#312 - 2013-12-03 01:50:34 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:

I guess you did poorly then, because the situation is incredibly simple. It's a highsec mission hub. You can't keep people "out" of it -- meaning there's no complex economic tactics like buying out smaller entities and forming a monopoly or oligopoly. It's just an agent you grab a mission from which is publicly open to anybody.

The more people take advantage of it, the more profits will lessen for that activity.

Sorry if this is going over your head.

i have yet to ever, once, see someone cite "econ 101" and then not say something immensely stupid about economics

you have not disappointed


I have the same experience with econ 102 and 103, and likewise, you have not disappointed.

You are right. I expect prices to go upwards as more people compete to generate goods in a market. Roll
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#313 - 2013-12-03 01:51:50 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Okay I am back to this one, I had to pick some low-hanging fruit in replies below this one first

Nevyn Auscent wrote:

1. No there is only 1 lvl 4 combat agent in Osmon for SOE.
2. Stacking Combat missions hardly makes a difference, it might save you a couple of jumps, however the time to do said mission still matters.
3. SOE income is a very short lived thing due to a new release of ships designed for Low Security use.
4. Risk has been significantly increased due to the popularity providing a very easy hunting ground for Gankers.


stacking combat missions is extremely effective because it's not just the mission runner who is doing it -- it's the mission runner and a variable and asymptotically infinite number of additional accounts in alpha clone pods who leech standings by being in fleet with the mission runner, then go and bookmark the combat sites and come back, allowing for, again, an asymptotically infinite number of missions that can be chained together

furthermore, this behavior is often botted, even if the mission running is not, and it's very difficult to differentiate from legitimate play

regarding SOE income -- SOE LP has been 2000 isk/LP since time immemorial, there's little indication that the addition of additional rewards is somehow going to lower this conversion rated

Alpha clone pods do not speed up doing the mission. You still have to kill the same amount of stuff. And if we are counting multiple accounts, hourly income is divided by the number of accounts used, making it an extremely low reward activity.

Bookmarking a mission does not allow returning to the mission after it is completed, the site despawns.

There are the rare missions that you leave uncompleted to farm the bounties. but you can only have one mission from the agent doing that, and can only do it once a day. So you have to be bouncing between 30-40 agents to do that. Which is entirely different from 'stacking missions'. And still isn't that profitable.

Yes, SOE LP has always been moderately high, no argument there, however it spiked significantly about the mark you posted due to the initial demand for SOE ships. We will see where it settles to in a month as the additional farming is likely to have a market impact.

None of this makes Osmon magically print Isk. It does take risk, it does have cost, and it is not the highest income activity in the game even then. Null having a lot of significantly higher incomes. Like every single Null Lvl 4 agent.

ah yes let me count the varied and sundry risks in highsec

* wardecs which have a polite 24 hour timer and are completely avoidable
* lone suicide gankers, fended off by activating your hardeners while traveling
* kill rights, uh huh

the bookmark is for the mission runner to use to go to the new site
the missions chosen are blitz missions to maximize LP gain and with the new MTUs you can just hurf one out and bookmark it and scoop it later
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#314 - 2013-12-03 01:53:52 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:

I have the same experience with econ 102 and 103, and likewise, you have not disappointed.

You are right. I expect prices to go upwards as more people compete to generate goods in a market. Roll

no one who ever took anything above econ 101 has ever cited econ 101 for anything at all because the classes are "you know all that stuff we taught you in econ 101? that was garbage, here is how it really works. also i hope you have managed to learn to do math with a hangover because we're no longer assuming away anything more complex than algebra"

so i could believe your claimed economics experience, or i could infer from your "sure i understand what rack and peanut steering is i'm a well-known car engineering person" like statement

decisions decisions

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#315 - 2013-12-03 01:54:14 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:

I guess you did poorly then, because the situation is incredibly simple. It's a highsec mission hub. You can't keep people "out" of it -- meaning there's no complex economic tactics like buying out smaller entities and forming a monopoly or oligopoly. It's just an agent you grab a mission from which is publicly open to anybody.

The more people take advantage of it, the more profits will lessen for that activity.

Sorry if this is going over your head.

i have yet to ever, once, see someone cite "econ 101" and then not say something immensely stupid about economics

you have not disappointed


I have the same experience with econ 102 and 103, and likewise, you have not disappointed.

You are right. I expect prices to go upwards as more people compete to generate goods in a market. Roll


Please continue to demonstrate why highsec people should be ignored when game balance decisions are being made.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#316 - 2013-12-03 01:54:40 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:

I have the same experience with econ 102 and 103, and likewise, you have not disappointed.

You are right. I expect prices to go upwards as more people compete to generate goods in a market. Roll

no one who ever took anything above econ 101 has ever cited econ 101 for anything at all because the classes are "you know all that stuff we taught you in econ 101? that was garbage, here is how it really works. also i hope you have managed to learn to do math with a hangover because we're no longer assuming away anything more complex than algebra"

so i could believe your claimed economics experience, or i could infer from your "sure i understand what rack and peanut steering is i'm a well-known car engineering person" like statement

decisions decisions


Reading this:

Zero content. Lots of ad hominem. Not surprised.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#317 - 2013-12-03 01:55:52 UTC
by the way, a little college tip for you: when you are trying to claim you actually took real classes in a subject remember that the more advanced classes increment the first digit

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#318 - 2013-12-03 01:55:59 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:

I have the same experience with econ 102 and 103, and likewise, you have not disappointed.

You are right. I expect prices to go upwards as more people compete to generate goods in a market. Roll

no one who ever took anything above econ 101 has ever cited econ 101 for anything at all because the classes are "you know all that stuff we taught you in econ 101? that was garbage, here is how it really works. also i hope you have managed to learn to do math with a hangover because we're no longer assuming away anything more complex than algebra"

so i could believe your claimed economics experience, or i could infer from your "sure i understand what rack and peanut steering is i'm a well-known car engineering person" like statement

decisions decisions


Oh, the Simpsons reference. This is why I love you guys.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#319 - 2013-12-03 01:56:13 UTC
All those dirty highsecers preventing you from owning half the universe and locking you out of the highsec systems of milk and honey. Clearly something must be done to end this injustice!

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#320 - 2013-12-03 01:56:35 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
by the way, a little college tip for you: when you are trying to claim you actually took real classes in a subject remember that the more advanced classes increment the first digit


Still waiting on the content.