These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
123Next pageLast page
 

The great missile debate

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
DHB WildCat
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
#1 - 2013-12-02 18:00:24 UTC
1) Selectable damage type is the ONLY saving grace for todays missile user. however CCP refuse to change the damn kinetic bonus to an universal one so we are forced to use kinetic if we want high damage..... however......

2) Gallente FOTM. T2 gallente have near 90% kinetic resists base.... freaking stupid. Missile boats now have to change damage type to either EM or Exp to do any sort of damage to them...... but wait......

3) RLML and RHML .... okay deimos on field switching to em damage.... 40 seconds later, you're either dead or ran away, cause you CANT change ammo types to be effective in 40 seconds. Or you can continue to shoot kinetic at the diemos as it laughs at you until you die.

4) CNR has more applicable damage to frigs and cruisers with cruise missiles than with RHML. This is stupid. Yes the ROF is faster on the RHML but how the heck is a BS sized weapon doing more per hit on a frig than a cruiser sized weapon!? WTF.

5) The Phoenix...... nuff said what a joke.

6) Torps even with a Vindi buddy webbing a hac you do jack all damage to it. Maybe we need to take a look at the size factor of ships and eliminating it as factor for missile damage, leaving speed and resistances the factors to missile damage. This would bring them in line with turrets and still be a little nerfed compared to them since a turret can still hit a ship for full effect based on transverse reguardless speed, while a missile would still be based on the speed. If a vindi can do full damage with neutrons to a frig sitting at zero why cant torps? Also doesnt it make sense that a larger explosion radius would in essence do more damage to an area than a smaller one?

I have a lot of other examples and references, I could go on for days. I just wish you guys would start taking some more outside input again. Your view on certain things are way to narrowed and focused to be able to see everything.

WildCat
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
#2 - 2013-12-02 18:04:12 UTC
AND I want the damn torp explosion wave back, it was so pretty
TheMercenaryKing
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#3 - 2013-12-02 18:18:38 UTC  |  Edited by: TheMercenaryKing
DHB WildCat wrote:
1) Selectable damage type is the ONLY saving grace for todays missile user. however CCP refuse to change the damn kinetic bonus to an universal one so we are forced to use kinetic if we want high damage..... however......

2) Gallente FOTM. T2 gallente have near 90% kinetic resists base.... freaking stupid. Missile boats now have to change damage type to either EM or Exp to do any sort of damage to them...... but wait......

3) RLML and RHML .... okay deimos on field switching to em damage.... 40 seconds later, you're either dead or ran away, cause you CANT change ammo types to be effective in 40 seconds. Or you can continue to shoot kinetic at the diemos as it laughs at you until you die.

4) CNR has more applicable damage to frigs and cruisers with cruise missiles than with RHML. This is stupid. Yes the ROF is faster on the RHML but how the heck is a BS sized weapon doing more per hit on a frig than a cruiser sized weapon!? WTF.

5) The Phoenix...... nuff said what a joke.

6) Torps even with a Vindi buddy webbing a hac you do jack all damage to it. Maybe we need to take a look at the size factor of ships and eliminating it as factor for missile damage, leaving speed and resistances the factors to missile damage. This would bring them in line with turrets and still be a little nerfed compared to them since a turret can still hit a ship for full effect based on transverse reguardless speed, while a missile would still be based on the speed. If a vindi can do full damage with neutrons to a frig sitting at zero why cant torps? Also doesnt it make sense that a larger explosion radius would in essence do more damage to an area than a smaller one?

I have a lot of other examples and references, I could go on for days. I just wish you guys would start taking some more outside input again. Your view on certain things are way to narrowed and focused to be able to see everything.

WildCat

2)
T2 Gal has 83.75% kin armor resist,
T2 Min has 25% kin armor (40% shield)
T2 Cal has 62.5% kin armor resist (70% shield) [has 80-85% thermal resists to say FU to Hybrids]
T2 Ama has 62.5% kin armor resist (70% shield)
Each race has their own T2 damage pattern, you cant base everything off of one ship.

3) your doing it wrong, that's not how Rapid missile launchers are designed to be used. Go in with a small gang, unload, and retreat or hope you killed everything.

4+6) Explosion velocity+explosion radius, I made a nice post about this, let me find the link.

5) They are shooting cruiser and frig sized weapons at faster ROF than their smaller counterparts, makes sense.
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
#4 - 2013-12-02 18:23:32 UTC
Missiles need a looking at, that's just the bottom line. Rapids need fixed, Heavies need fixed, HAMs need a slight adjustment, defneders need changed to a flare type defense (like planes use in todays wars) FoF well just suck. Torp not sure if need fixed or not. Cruise, Lights, and rockets are good to go.
DHB WildCat
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
#5 - 2013-12-02 18:37:03 UTC  |  Edited by: DHB WildCat
TheMercenaryKing wrote:

4+6) Explosion velocity+explosion radius, I made a nice post about this, let me find the link.




I want to discuss this more.

Are you saying that, lets take all variables out of here and get down to the most basic of maslow's hierarchy of needs here, a ship sitting still no matter the size can be hit by a turret of any size for FULL damage and thats okay? However a torp / cruise missile hitting a cruiser that is sitting at zero m/sec, or a HAM / HM hitting a destroyer / frig sized targets only does half or less of it FULL dps is okay?

Now lets get the target moving. Perfect transverse no matter the weapon "other than domis with sentries" will miss a smaller target. That is fair. However an 800 auto cannon tempest will wreck a cruiser with zero transverse no matter the speed..... but a cruise raven will still do crap dps to a cruiser even with a zero transverse factor. Not even.


*Now it would be silly of me to not put forward a possible solution.... I purpose the damage done by missiles are based solely on the resistances and speed of the target ships. Based on this...... "Typical detonation velocities in gases range from 1800 m/s to 3000 m/s. Typical velocities in solid explosives often range beyond 4000 m/s to 10300 m/s." So lets use the gas numbers for arguement sakes. anything over 3km/sec would take zero damage from missiles. Anything slower would take the percentage of damage based on the speed. So obviously a webbed target would take more damage than a non webbed one. A frig sitting at 0m/sec against a torp would evaporate. On this as well we need a mod like a tracking disruptor that can mess with the guidance system and slow the speed of the missile.


Whats your take on that?
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#6 - 2013-12-02 18:42:23 UTC
Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:
Missiles need a looking at, that's just the bottom line. Rapids need fixed, Heavies need fixed, HAMs need a slight adjustment, defneders need changed to a flare type defense (like planes use in todays wars) FoF well just suck. Torp not sure if need fixed or not. Cruise, Lights, and rockets are good to go.


It kinda feels like CCP has been looking at missiles for a year now.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
#7 - 2013-12-02 18:43:44 UTC
Batelle, Don't make me moon you!
Odithia
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2013-12-02 18:45:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Odithia
DHB WildCat wrote:


Whats your take on that?

And I want my lazor to track and deal top damage from 0 all the way to 2x fallof.
Missiles need to have different behavior than turret, this part is actually kinda ballanced.


Btw while we're talking missiles : I want my tracking disruptor to mess with missile guidance.
DHB WildCat
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
#9 - 2013-12-02 18:50:13 UTC
Odithia wrote:



Btw while we're talking missiles : I want my tracking disruptor to mess with missile guidance.



Im okay with this... Either to mess up its range, or the speed of the missile is fine. It actually only makes sense to have a disruptor of missiles system.
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
#10 - 2013-12-02 18:51:56 UTC
Odithia,

You sure want a lot, that doesn't matter to this forum. The issue is missiles are substandard to guns in pretty much everyway and need to be looked at.
Tracking disruptors affect missiles, makes me since they were made to affect guns. Defenders are to affect missiles, and like I said before they need looked at. I say replaces with a better system all together, but not tracking disruptors.
You can argue about this, once you see a missile insta pop another ship in one shot, oh what, only guns can do that, hmmm.
Da'iel Zehn
Evil Frosty's Premium Liqours and Fine Wines
#11 - 2013-12-02 19:10:21 UTC
I like this thread.

I fully support changing kinetic bonuses on all Caldari ships to universal bonuses for all damage types!

I will withhold my negative comments about the current kinetic bonuses because I love EvE. Smile
TheMercenaryKing
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#12 - 2013-12-02 20:19:46 UTC
DHB WildCat wrote:
TheMercenaryKing wrote:

4+6) Explosion velocity+explosion radius, I made a nice post about this, let me find the link.




I want to discuss this more.

Are you saying that, lets take all variables out of here and get down to the most basic of maslow's hierarchy of needs here, a ship sitting still no matter the size can be hit by a turret of any size for FULL damage and thats okay? However a torp / cruise missile hitting a cruiser that is sitting at zero m/sec, or a HAM / HM hitting a destroyer / frig sized targets only does half or less of it FULL dps is okay?

Now lets get the target moving. Perfect transverse no matter the weapon "other than domis with sentries" will miss a smaller target. That is fair. However an 800 auto cannon tempest will wreck a cruiser with zero transverse no matter the speed..... but a cruise raven will still do crap dps to a cruiser even with a zero transverse factor. Not even.


*Now it would be silly of me to not put forward a possible solution.... I purpose the damage done by missiles are based solely on the resistances and speed of the target ships. Based on this...... "Typical detonation velocities in gases range from 1800 m/s to 3000 m/s. Typical velocities in solid explosives often range beyond 4000 m/s to 10300 m/s." So lets use the gas numbers for arguement sakes. anything over 3km/sec would take zero damage from missiles. Anything slower would take the percentage of damage based on the speed. So obviously a webbed target would take more damage than a non webbed one. A frig sitting at 0m/sec against a torp would evaporate. On this as well we need a mod like a tracking disruptor that can mess with the guidance system and slow the speed of the missile.


Whats your take on that?


IMO missiles are fine, the benefits to them is that angle does not matter, and also they are the only weapon that has a signature reduction, allowing them to hit small targets better. They also boast a static damage. If you need more damage due to target sig, use a painter and/or explosion radius reduction rigs.

For missiles it's equal parts Velocity to signature for damage, for turrets its more transversal to signature. Also if you are shooting someone sitting still, they deserve to die, end of story.



Some logic, if a rock falls on you and is smaller than you, you get the damage from the whole impact, same with a rock larger than you. But if a rock shatters and sends debris around you, you will only take damage from what hits you, the other energy will dissipate when it hits the ground un-injuring you.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#13 - 2013-12-02 20:44:35 UTC
Da'iel Zehn wrote:
I like this thread.

I fully support changing kinetic bonuses on all Caldari ships to universal bonuses for all damage types!

I will withhold my negative comments about the current kinetic bonuses because I love EvE. Smile


yes, please buff my tengu vs sansha/blood/angel.

Seriously though, which ships exactly are affected?

tengu
drake
nighthawk
cerberus
hawk
condor/crow
corax
flycatcher
onyx
manticore (I assume this discussion doesn't extend to bombers)

Also:
Talwar - lol nova missiles only
Helios - lol bonus to hobgoblin only

buff helios plz.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#14 - 2013-12-02 21:00:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Riot Girl
Small missile systems are fine, I think. For all other missile systems, I think they could become a lot more unique and interesting if they have their general overall DPS nerfed by a large percentage, enough to cause a lot of people to become upset and then buff the explosion velocity and explosion radius of those missile systems to make them more specialised as a weapon system to be used for combat against ships a class below them. In other words, HML could become like the old RLML while cruise might become more like the old HML. Right now, missiles are just pretty crap and I think a change like this might make them more useful or it might just make a lot of mission runners mad idk.

Oh god.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2013-12-02 21:26:00 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Small missile systems are fine, I think. For all other missile systems, I think they could become a lot more unique and interesting if they have their general overall DPS nerfed by a large percentage, enough to cause a lot of people to become upset and then buff the explosion velocity and explosion radius of those missile systems to make them more specialised as a weapon system to be used for combat against ships a class below them. In other words, HML could become like the old RLML while cruise might become more like the old HML. Right now, missiles are just pretty crap and I think a change like this might make them more useful or it might just make a lot of mission runners mad idk.



Cruise missiles are actually pretty good with the right set ups.

Torps are meh, HAMs are decent, but you have to build a gang around them, heavies are **** without a Tengu or Cerb and Rapid anything is junk as it stands.

Rockets are a little low in damage compared to the turrets (and arguably drones) and lights make up for their shortcomings with raw range.

My readers digest version.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#16 - 2013-12-02 21:45:25 UTC
Onictus wrote:
[Cruise missiles are actually pretty good with the right set ups.

Yeah, they're decent. It's mainly the HMLs that need the most attention. The two options I see for them is either to give them a makeover similar to the medium turrets or to just resurrect the old RLML as HMLs.

Oh god.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2013-12-02 21:50:20 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Onictus wrote:
[Cruise missiles are actually pretty good with the right set ups.

Yeah, they're decent. It's mainly the HMLs that need the most attention. The two options I see for them is either to give them a makeover similar to the medium turrets or to just resurrect the old RLML as HMLs.


Rapids are crap, they need to go back to pre CCP40sec spec there.

Heavies would be fine with the damage that they had yanked given back, that would be analogous to the turrets, good damage hard to apply.

Lights.....I think really have to much range and not enough damage, then again, no one is asking me.
Quontor Zarrkos
Island Monkeys
#18 - 2013-12-02 22:04:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Quontor Zarrkos
Ccp just hates caldari :P

Ecm: you don't need that range bonus on the falcon, it's op, let's remove it.
Tengu/drake: hml damage application is your only trump card? Time for nerf!
Light missile cerberus and friends: Wait, what, people use caldari again? 40 second reload, back to the turrets guys Lol

Though I have to say a lot of these nerfs are in order, it's just that caldari always had crappy ships and 1-2 very strong ones. The falcon is still a major reason to go caldari, I can't think of any others though I might've missed some.

Edit: I see complaints against the kinetic bonus everywhere, I don't think changing that to all damage types would be a good idea. We might as well get rid of damage types if all ships could do them all, currently only minmatar has that flexibility and some select missile ships, and I like it that way.
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2013-12-03 13:52:11 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:
Missiles need a looking at, that's just the bottom line. Rapids need fixed, Heavies need fixed, HAMs need a slight adjustment, defneders need changed to a flare type defense (like planes use in todays wars) FoF well just suck. Torp not sure if need fixed or not. Cruise, Lights, and rockets are good to go.

It kinda feels like CCP has been looking at missiles for a year now.

Yeah, they've been looking at various ways how to nerf them even more.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#20 - 2013-12-03 14:09:53 UTC
Odithia wrote:

Btw while we're talking missiles : I want my tracking disruptor to mess with missile guidance.


No...

If they want to make a "Missile Guidance Distributor" I'm fine with that but just on principle a module that affects gun turrets shouldn't do anything with missiles. That would be like having Gyrostabilizers boost missile damage and ROF.
123Next pageLast page