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CCP continues to ignore the plight of missile ships, such as the phoenix in pvp.

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Isbariya
State War Academy
Caldari State
#81 - 2013-12-02 19:32:22 UTC
Lifelongnoob wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Using examples of what one alliance fields in a few select fights doesn't really show much. In general, metrics show that missiles have certainly come down in popularity some since HML changes but overall they are still performing well.

The Phoenix is certainly not in a good place. We actually tried to do a pass on it a few patches back but couldn't get the tuning quite right so we decided to wait a little since there will be good opportunities to balance it alongside other changes that we have in mind.

Missiles gained some ground recently with Cruise changes and the addition of RHML. We want to do a few more things over the next few patches that will also impact missile balance, if that helps your outlook.


make the phoenix a hybrid dread rather than missile dread



That would actually help a lot even if it would be unbonused, just let it have 3 turret hardpoints and we're happy for the foreseeable future.
Davon Mandra'thin
Das Collective
#82 - 2013-12-02 20:05:21 UTC
Majindoom Shi wrote:

There is practically no situation where a MISSILES is preferred over guns. From incursions to pvp to complex running.

Incursions, agreed. PvP? Your an idiot. Missiles are frankly incredible in PvP. You do, of course, need to know how to use them.

Majindoom Shi wrote:

Being usable is not the same as performing well. Also you make it sound like it's only one alliance that's not using missiles but it's not. Most if not all doctrine are gun or drone boats.

Aside from a structure bash missiles are useless; and this is coming from someone who used to be diehard caldari.
Ever since I trained projectiles and hybrids I have not looked at a missile ship.

Comparing alliance level PvP to PvP in general is daft. Your right about alliance level PvP though, missiles are useless at that. But when it comes to small gang, missiles are fantastic.

Majindoom Shi wrote:
Ratting? Vindi or Mach out preform anything missile based.

Rattlesnake may do most of it's damage with drones, but it is still a missile boat, and it ruins the Mach and Vindi for mission running.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2013-12-02 20:10:06 UTC
Plug in Baby wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
And what do you while they reload?
Make a sandwich and hope your ship is still there when you come back?


Post KMs and typed 'rekt' in local?


Y U NO HAVE MOAR LIEKS!!!????!!1111!!!ELEBENTY!!??

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Neni
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#84 - 2013-12-02 20:11:00 UTC
Isbariya wrote:
Lifelongnoob wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Using examples of what one alliance fields in a few select fights doesn't really show much. In general, metrics show that missiles have certainly come down in popularity some since HML changes but overall they are still performing well.

The Phoenix is certainly not in a good place. We actually tried to do a pass on it a few patches back but couldn't get the tuning quite right so we decided to wait a little since there will be good opportunities to balance it alongside other changes that we have in mind.

Missiles gained some ground recently with Cruise changes and the addition of RHML. We want to do a few more things over the next few patches that will also impact missile balance, if that helps your outlook.


make the phoenix a hybrid dread rather than missile dread



That would actually help a lot even if it would be unbonused, just let it have 3 turret hardpoints and we're happy for the foreseeable future.


why just not remove the entire missile range and go for guns, just reballence the heck out of everything and tbh create 1 single race, have no destinctions no advantages and disadventages of races anymore.

imo phoenix has a great alpha dmg but that is about it, it has the lowest dps of the dreads even with faction launchers and also the flight time of the missiles well your target is dead before u even applied a single drop of dmg to it.

The thing i do not understand is that a bullet has a normal flight time to irl why is it insta dmg in eve ? Why not make missiles do insta dmg to or get rid of the insta dmg of guns, have the bullets that they fire a time to reach the target or would this cause for to much drama.
Davon Mandra'thin
Das Collective
#85 - 2013-12-02 20:12:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Davon Mandra'thin
DHB WildCat wrote:

1) Selectable damage type is the ONLY saving grace for todays missile user. You at CCP refuse to change the dame kinetic bonus to an universal one so we are forced to use kinetic if we want high damage..... however......


Now, your PvP skills are more or less legendary but I still have to disagree. There are loads of saving graces, like the fact that radial velocity does not effect them. If your kiting someone your own speed makes no difference to the damage, unlike turrets. Their range is effectively farther when your burning away from you enemy and they are burning to you (again, fantastic for kiting). They always hit (admittedly, they don't always do much), and their brawler versions (HAMs, rockets, torps) have larger effective ranges than the turrets which means you can kite at close ranges in brawlers whilst still doing your 'optimum' damage. Fit two webs on an armour boat and orbit at 9kms and that blaster boat will melt and do no damage. Also, last but definitely not least, they use no cap.

Using missiles is completely different to using turrets, but getting used to them gives you a massive advantage.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2013-12-02 20:14:44 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Davon Mandra'thin wrote:
Tell us more about how being able to pump out 1000 DPS on a battleship with HEAVY MISSILES at 47kms is inconsequential.


And what do you while they reload?
Make a sandwich and hope your ship is still there when you come back?


The objective is that by the time you have to reload, everything should be dead.

If this is not the case, then you done frakked up.


You can also stagger your launchers' firing times. Instead of grouping them all together, keep them ungrouped, or group them in smaller groups. Like four single launchers, or two x two (if you have four launchers paired together). Start firing one, then 30 seconds later, start firing the other. You might not be able to put your total dps on target all of the time, but if it's going to be a protracted engagement, you are at least still putting dps on target the whole duration of the fight.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Arduemonl
Doomheim
#87 - 2013-12-02 20:28:22 UTC
Buff missiles, and I will burn New Eden with them.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Arduemont

Achieved almost entirely with missiles. Buff missiles, I dare you.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2013-12-02 20:30:24 UTC
Am I to have an impress?
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#89 - 2013-12-02 20:33:00 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Am I to have an impress?


Not to be a ****.... but I'm going to assume English is not your first language and you are trying to say:

"Am I supposed to be impressed?"

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#90 - 2013-12-02 20:34:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Well at one point my favorite belt ratter was the drake, cheap, able to tank and could kite far enough out that you had time to warp out and was able to mitigate damage through range, now with 41 km range, I just don't use it. My drakes are now used for popping out of station to check whats there, with tank and a ship scanner or the very limited use HAML drake when someone decides to sit on the undock, fools.... That is the only thing I use them for, HML drakes have no range and pitiful dps, in fact they are utterly useless! When they made the changes to the drake and HML's, I could accept a reduced DPS if they left the range alone, but the range nerf combined with damage nerf was too much and I said that on the thread. I also stopped using the Nighthawk for much the same reason...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2013-12-02 20:35:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Arduemonl wrote:
Buff missiles, and I will burn New Eden with them.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Arduemont

Achieved almost entirely with missiles. Buff missiles, I dare you.


It's a good KB, but in all fairness, it's not the missiles that are winning those fights for you. There are missile imbalances that need to be solved. That doesn't mean they're useless, it just means that they could be more useful. Not all types, and not in all circumstances. But your circumstances make missile kills pretty easy. Hell, they'd make drone-only kills pretty easy. I'm looking at you, Corax that died to Ogres Twisted

EDIT: If that had been me in the Corax, you wouldn't have killed it with Ogres.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2013-12-02 20:38:28 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Am I to have an impress?


Not to be a ****.... but I'm going to assume English is not your first language and you are trying to say:

"Am I supposed to be impressed?"



My English is just fine, that would be exactly the question. There is nothing on that killboard that suggests that missiles are in anyway over powered......It tells us you have a middling kill/death ratio and that you really like Gnosis.

That's about it really.
Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#93 - 2013-12-02 20:38:33 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Using examples of what one alliance fields in a few select fights doesn't really show much. In general, metrics show that missiles have certainly come down in popularity some since HML changes but overall they are still performing well.

The Phoenix is certainly not in a good place. We actually tried to do a pass on it a few patches back but couldn't get the tuning quite right so we decided to wait a little since there will be good opportunities to balance it alongside other changes that we have in mind.

Missiles gained some ground recently with Cruise changes and the addition of RHML. We want to do a few more things over the next few patches that will also impact missile balance, if that helps your outlook.


Give the Phoenix the equilvilant of those RHML and maybe the mass's who fly that worthless dread will STFU.

Twisted

Senex Legio
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#94 - 2013-12-02 20:41:41 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Well at one point my favorite belt ratter was the drake, cheap, able to tank and could kite far enough out that you had time to warp out and was able to mitigate damage through range, now with 41 km range, I just don't use it. My drakes are now used for popping out of station to check whats there, with tank and a ship scanner or the very limited use HAML drake when someone decides to sit on the undock, fools.... That is the only thing I use them for, HML drakes have no range and pitiful dps, in fact they are utterly useless! When they made the changes to the drake and HML's, I could accept a reduced DPS if they left the range alone, but the range nerf combined with damage nerf was too much and I said that on the thread. I also stopped using the Nighthawk for much the same reason...



Actually the damage and range nerf put HMLs back in line with the other LR medium weapons........
....except they turned around and buffed the crap out of the medium LR turrets, so yeah.

So far as it goes Light Missiles and Cruises both have far and away more range compared to their peers, lights nearly match heavies and cruises are a another order of magnitude in the range department. Cruise missiles have been a side project of mine for a couple weeks now.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2013-12-02 20:43:35 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Am I to have an impress?


Not to be a ****.... but I'm going to assume English is not your first language and you are trying to say:

"Am I supposed to be impressed?"



My English is just fine, that would be exactly the question. There is nothing on that killboard that suggests that missiles are in anyway over powered......It tells us you have a middling kill/death ratio and that you really like Gnosis.

That's about it really.


K/D means nothing. A player with one kill and one death has the same K/D as a player with 50 kill and 50 deaths. Which one is better? That would depend on how long they've been playing, but the only way to find out is to actually have them fight. It's the same for anything. You are not better than someone if you have a better K/D, you are better than them if you beat them. His K/D says nothing to me. Who he kills, who he is killed by, how, where, what to and why... that says everything.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Arduemonl
Doomheim
#96 - 2013-12-02 20:47:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemonl
Onictus wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Am I to have an impress?


Not to be a ****.... but I'm going to assume English is not your first language and you are trying to say:

"Am I supposed to be impressed?"



My English is just fine, that would be exactly the question. There is nothing on that killboard that suggests that missiles are in anyway over powered......It tells us you have a middling kill/death ratio and that you really like Gnosis.

That's about it really.


It's a shame I can't link killmails or battle reports. The one where I kill a Harb, a Drake and a Rupture in a Caracal alone in the same engagement is pretty good. There's also a 5 vs 15 battle where we kill 15 and lose nothing. I was flying a Caracal for that one as well. The Algos I killed with a Stealth bomber was very amusing, but mostly just a really bad adversary. Solo Harpy, Vexor and Thrasher kills in a hawk are nice little additions to the list. Not to mention all the kills I got in the Merlin before the weapon system change.

35k up the ranks is not in the middle. Don't get me wrong, it's not astounding in any way. But it's not middling. Most of my kills are solo or small gang against larger numbers and I don't have any hundred man carriers and dread kills padding my killmails. At this point, any attempt to defend my statement will appear boastful, so that's where I stop.

Edit: The guy below me didn't even read to the second page. lol
Edit 2: Also, if I have a middling killboard, and you are double my rank lower, does that mean your at the bottom?
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#97 - 2013-12-02 20:49:18 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Am I to have an impress?


Not to be a ****.... but I'm going to assume English is not your first language and you are trying to say:

"Am I supposed to be impressed?"



My English is just fine, that would be exactly the question. There is nothing on that killboard that suggests that missiles are in anyway over powered......It tells us you have a middling kill/death ratio and that you really like Gnosis.

That's about it really.


K/D means nothing. A player with one kill and one death has the same K/D as a player with 50 kill and 50 deaths. Which one is better? That would depend on how long they've been playing, but the only way to find out is to actually have them fight. It's the same for anything. You are not better than someone if you have a better K/D, you are better than them if you beat them. His K/D says nothing to me. Who he kills, who he is killed by, how, where, what to and why... that says everything.



So killing a cruiser with a battlecruiser that has nearly triple the eHP.....or hitting an ishtar with a Damnation and Gnosis. Obviously, gods gift to PvP.
I Love Boobies
All Hail Boobies
#98 - 2013-12-02 20:52:13 UTC
I even switched from Caldari to Gallente. Missiles didn't seem viable any more once I got the Drones and Gallente skills trained up.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2013-12-02 20:54:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Onictus wrote:



So killing a cruiser with a battlecruiser that has nearly triple the eHP.....or hitting an ishtar with a Damnation and Gnosis. Obviously, gods gift to PvP.


You're only looking at a couple of kills for examples. I killed a venture yesterday in a Jaguar. The day before that, I killed a Hurricane in the same ship. Solo. With more than triple the ehp I had.

You cannot gauge a player by only one or two kills that fit your opinion of a player. If you want to find out how truly good he is, why not challenge him to a fight? Or, you can sit there making insubstantial presumptions about him with no basis. I, for one, will take care if I ever find myself in battle against Arduemont, and would welcome him to fight alongside me any day, whether he's predominantly high sec or not.

You've already lost the fight if you underestimate your opponent.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#100 - 2013-12-02 20:55:43 UTC
Arduemonl wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Am I to have an impress?


Not to be a ****.... but I'm going to assume English is not your first language and you are trying to say:

"Am I supposed to be impressed?"



My English is just fine, that would be exactly the question. There is nothing on that killboard that suggests that missiles are in anyway over powered......It tells us you have a middling kill/death ratio and that you really like Gnosis.

That's about it really.


It's a shame I can't link killmails or battle reports. The one where I kill a Harb, a Drake and a Rupture in a Caracal alone in the same engagement is pretty good. There's also a 5 vs 15 battle where we kill 15 and lose nothing. I was flying a Caracal for that one as well. The Algos I killed with a Stealth bomber was very amusing, but mostly just a really bad adversary. Solo Harpy, Vexor and Thrasher kills in a hawk are nice little additions to the list. Not to mention all the kills I got in the Merlin before the weapon system change.

35k up the ranks is not in the middle. Don't get me wrong, it's not astounding in any way. But it's not middling. Most of my kills are solo or small gang against larger numbers and I don't have any hundred man carriers and dread kills padding my killmails. At this point, any attempt to defend my statement will appear boastful, so that's where I stop.

Edit: The guy below me didn't even read to the second page. lol


I was a small gang only pilot for a long time. I know exactly what the environment is. I've had a few with 14 BCs with a couple tac against 14 battleships and lost even numbers.

Had a few were we got crushed.

Had one last week (I think it was) were we warped a Crow onto grid with three ratting battleships.....there were only 5 of us but they didn't know that so one got tackled and the other two bailed. We would have had a VERY hard time with that if those other two BSs had stayed on grid.

They didn't so we go the low hanging fruit.....in a very very slow death lol