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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

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Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#2561 - 2013-12-02 12:07:10 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
RIP RLML.
RIP RHML.

I really (really) tried, but these new missile systems are completely pointless outside of blobs. If anything, they give blobs an advantage by allowing them to boost initial DPS. If we want to eliminate solo play, this is the surest way to do it. I had three brief engagements today vs. a Loki, a Proteus and a mixed fleet (I had equipped full RLMLs in the hopes I'd happen upon a frigate, but we play the cards we're given…)

In the first engagement with the Loki, he managed to get a point on me with an overheated warp disruptor, so I decided to use my MWD to keep him out of weapons range. I was only able to knock his shields down about 20% before exhausting my supply of RLMLs, whereby the 40-second "reload of death" kicked in. We were both overheating our MWDs and traveling in a straight pursuit path, but as he was overheating both his MWD and disruptor - he wasn't able to keep pace and had to drop back. This gave me a window of opportunity to get clear of his point and warp to out (I clearly wasn't going to make any progress).

In the second, I was able to keep well clear of the Proteus and use the range advantage of the RLMLs to hit him. Damage was negligible, and as he couldn't get close to me (and I didn't stand a chance in a close-range battle) - we both disengaged.

The third engagement saw me jumped by several ships which immediately ECM'd me. With the additional sensor damps from the Federation NPCs, this basically shut me down so I loaded FoF missiles (it should be noted that this 40-second switch was rather nerve-racking, as several additional ships jumped in and joined pursuit). I couldn't lock anything, so I have no idea what if any damage I did (but I imagine it was practically non-existent since they continued pursuit). After exhausting a full volley and expecting even more reinforcements (local was lighting up like a Christmas tree), I aligned and got the heck out of dodge.
…..

So that's it for the grand experiment. The damage application with HMLs is practically non-existent, and the range advantage is easily mitigated with sensor dampeners. ECM shuts down target painters, leaving you with FoF missiles. If you have to resort to FoF missiles, you're dead already (you just don't realize it yet). RLMLs are pointless for all the aforementioned reasons and one more: their only saving grace was the fitting requirements, and now you run them at the expense of tank, too. RHMLs would be interesting if they knocked the power requirements down 5-fold, but again - "40 second death" awaits. So I'm left with HAMs, because they're the only missile system left. I lose range, gain fitting over HMLs (slightly over RLMLs), greatly increased damage application and massive sustained DPS boost (400-ish on a Covert configuration; around 600 or so non-Covert). Faction launchers also hold 75 rounds of ammunition, so even with a 2.25-second ROF - that's a lot of shooting.
…..

My proposal:
1. Reinstate RLMLs to pre-Rubicon specs.
2. Revise RHMLs to the first iteration (they're about as useful on battleships as a screen door right now).
3. Implement some adjustments to LMs, HAMs and HMs (see previous posts for specifics).
4. Implement a passive ballistic enhancement module, similar to the tracking enhancement module for guns.


So after trying to convince yourself that they weren't that bad you've now come full circle? Well kudos for giving it a try. More than I'm willing to do (I did try RHMLs in PVE unfortunately). These things on paper tell me all I need to know. They suck.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#2562 - 2013-12-02 12:11:48 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
but atm we dont have a proper missile systems outside of spacialised frig owning system
and brawling HAMs, (yes you need webs to apply damage)


I mean if this is actually the root of a lot of the problem then that's a different issue that we need to address. I'm not totally sure it is, but I want to take a hard look at HML before the point release and make sure we're okay with where we're at. If that needs a tweak then we should be doing that, not focusing on RLML as a solution to a HML problem.


I'd just like to quote this post again because this really is the problem, and the current versions of the rapid missile launchers have done nothing but add insult to injury for missile users.
FleetAdmiralHarper
Kitchen Sink Kapitals
#2563 - 2013-12-02 13:35:26 UTC  |  Edited by: FleetAdmiralHarper
the new rapid missile launchers fail because:
simply not enough ammo capacity to kill or even bruise its intended target class.
and 2, to long of a reload time.

when attacking tanked targets, by the time they are even half shield/armor your out of missiles and enter the 40 second reload of death/failure.
the target reps itself back up to full every time. then proceeds to kill you.

your better off using normal light/heavy missiles now because of that, or just cruise missiles on a battleship with webs and TPs like the old days.

the only success you will have with these launchers in pvp is if you are firing at untanked targets (blackbirds/scan frigs/interceptors/bombers) etc.
even then dont expect more than 1 or 2 kills per missile load.

i dont want a **** all weapon. i just dont want it to be USELESS like it is now.

i see 2 ways of fixing this problem

1: if you keep the 40 second reload time. (AT A ABSOLUTE MINIMUM) triple the ammo count per load.
OR
2: reduce the reload time from 40 to 20 seconds. this is still a completely absurd reload time, and most/all ships will probably still tank you, and rep to full in ur reload time.
...but atleast you have SOME SMALL chance, vs the current system.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#2564 - 2013-12-02 13:46:14 UTC
i would suggest
- nerf light missile damage 10% maybe buff light missile launchers ROF if needed for frigs
-increase ammo capacity by about double on RLML's (HAMS have 60 maybe reduce HAMS to 45)
- reduce reload time to 25 seconds and increase reload time on all missile launchers to 17.5 seconds
- add reduced reload time skill for all launchers 1 second a level.

i always think its strange that missiles can reload as fast as projectiles do seems strange too me.. bulkiness and all i would think a crew would need to practice reloading missiles more than reloading bullets

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#2565 - 2013-12-02 13:55:51 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
but atm we dont have a proper missile systems outside of spacialised frig owning system
and brawling HAMs, (yes you need webs to apply damage)


I mean if this is actually the root of a lot of the problem then that's a different issue that we need to address. I'm not totally sure it is, but I want to take a hard look at HML before the point release and make sure we're okay with where we're at. If that needs a tweak then we should be doing that, not focusing on RLML as a solution to a HML problem.


I'd just like to quote this post again because this really is the problem, and the current versions of the rapid missile launchers have done nothing but add insult to injury for missile users.


i think CCP Rise you need to look at adding new missile types the options are very limited until you do
- rockets
- light missiles - used for 2 launchers
- heavy missiles - used for 2 launchers
- heavy assault missiles
- torps
- cruise

the thing i notice that is missing is medium missiles .. i.e. something in between light missiles and heavy missiles

light missiles - geared at killing small ships
heavy/heavy assault - geared at cruisers but really only apply well to bc's or shield cruisers TP and webbed.
medium missiles - could be the middle ground geared at smaller sig cruisers - i.e higher expl velocity and lower expl radius than heavy missiles do but with lower dps and easier fittings like RLML and HAMS mixed together into a hybrid

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#2566 - 2013-12-02 13:59:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
also what's happened too the TE/TC/TD change to add missiles too them that would also help with making missiles more useful and add options and balance up the e-war situation..

along with a missile rebalance ofc...

-nerf rockets expl radius 20 is OP 30 odd on rage is OP too and nerf their range
- nerf light missiles damage a little and nerf its expl radius a bit along with a range nerf
- nerf HAM range it shouldn't be the same as torps its usually 50% scaling of sizes from small - large

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2567 - 2013-12-02 14:40:32 UTC
Harvey James wrote:

- nerf rockets expl radius 20 is OP 30 odd on rage is OP too and nerf their range
- nerf light missiles damage a little and nerf its expl radius a bit along with a range nerf
- nerf HAM range it shouldn't be the same as torps its usually 50% scaling of sizes from small - large

- nerf cruise missiles expl radius and nerf torp damage

Now everything is covered nicely and no one will bother flying missile ships.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#2568 - 2013-12-02 15:04:04 UTC
Again, RLML are NOT a solo weapon anymore. They are frigate interdiction weapons, and they will be very good at that.

Example : you are in a cruiser fleet and one get tackled by a fast tackler, but the RLML cruiser in the fleet will fastly get rid of him and the fleet will safely go away.
In the same kind of fleet, the RLML ship will also be able to shoot at any frigate (tackle, EWAR...) an ennemy fleet could have, removing them from the field.

And if required, the RLML ship can shoot at the primary and add a good burst dps to take down a target before reloading.

A drone ship can do the same, but a lot less effectively : light drones will never ever have 300dps.

RLML ship are now escorting vessels for the fleet, a job destroyers are bad at because they are too vulnerable to ennemy cruisers the fleet might encounter.

And RHML should work the same for BS against cruisers, yet I think a BS can wait 40 seconds and continue the fight then, si I think it's less damaging for them, unless you plan to shoot at BS.

Logistic ships are the worst ship in game for soloing, yet no one would say they are useless. They are supporting ships. RLML are now supporting weapons.

RLML and RHML are not supposed to obsolete other missiles systems and a lot of complaints here aimed the fact that they can't replace other weapons effectively, but they should not do that. There should be use cases for all of them, but for most situations involving low numbers in point range, HAM should be the weapon of choice, exactly like short range turrets are the weapons of choice for turret point range engagements.
Morniee
Barbs Hammer
Xenta.
#2569 - 2013-12-02 15:14:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Morniee
Harvey James wrote:
also what's happened too the TE/TC/TD change to add missiles too them that would also help with making missiles more useful and add options and balance up the e-war situation..

along with a missile rebalance ofc...

-nerf rockets expl radius 20 is OP 30 odd on rage is OP too and nerf their range
- nerf light missiles damage a little and nerf its expl radius a bit along with a range nerf
- nerf HAM range it shouldn't be the same as torps its usually 50% scaling of sizes from small - large


Incomplete!!! make them usable on high sec only... like Bombs are in null :O :O
Or make them deal Hull damage to you own ship?! Yah? Missiles use propelent fuel any ways... Right?
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2570 - 2013-12-02 15:51:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
So after trying to convince yourself that they weren't that bad you've now come full circle? Well kudos for giving it a try. More than I'm willing to do (I did try RHMLs in PVE unfortunately). These things on paper tell me all I need to know. They suck.

Honestly, I wish I knew which direction to go in now.

Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Again, RLML are NOT a solo weapon anymore. They are frigate interdiction weapons, and they will be very good at that.

Yes, and if you've been reading this is the main complaint: an aspect of solo play has been entirely eliminated.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2571 - 2013-12-02 16:03:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Niena Nuamzzar
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Example : you are in a cruiser fleet and one get tackled by a fast tackler, but the RLML cruiser in the fleet will fastly get rid of him and the fleet will safely go away.
In the same kind of fleet, the RLML ship will also be able to shoot at any frigate (tackle, EWAR...) an ennemy fleet could have, removing them from the field.

Removing any frigate an enemy fleet could have from the field? With Caracal? You were correct at first - RLML ship will be able to shoot at any frigate... until it runs out of ammo somewhat too early... and while reloading everyone will laugh at him shooting back and your Caracal hero will die before reload is finished.

Quote:

RLML and RHML are not supposed to obsolete other missiles systems and a lot of complaints here aimed the fact that they can't replace other weapons effectively, but they should not do that. There should be use cases for all of them, but for most situations involving low numbers in point range, HAM should be the weapon of choice, exactly like short range turrets are the weapons of choice for turret point range engagements.

You are wrong, peeps will just move to other ships and weapons.
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2572 - 2013-12-02 16:07:33 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Again, RLML are NOT a solo weapon anymore.

Thank you Bouh, I rest my case.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2573 - 2013-12-02 16:10:38 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
also what's happened too the TE/TC/TD change to add missiles too them that would also help with making missiles more useful and add options and balance up the e-war situation..

along with a missile rebalance ofc...

-nerf rockets expl radius 20 is OP 30 odd on rage is OP too and nerf their range
- nerf light missiles damage a little and nerf its expl radius a bit along with a range nerf
- nerf HAM range it shouldn't be the same as torps its usually 50% scaling of sizes from small - large



- Let me introduce you to my 70km range Wolf or 65km range Harpy
- Light missiles are bottom of the barrel in overall damage as it is.
- You have the HAM/Torp thing back asswards, Torp range shouldn't be the same as torps, you shouldn't need three range rigs and T2 ammo to match blaster range.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#2574 - 2013-12-02 16:18:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Yes, and if you've been reading this is the main complaint: an aspect of solo play has been entirely eliminated.
Yes, but this aspect was allowed by the fact RLML obsoleted all other medium missiles in most cases ; in other words, this aspect was possible because RLML were OP.

Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
Removing any frigate an enemy fleet could have from the field? With Caracal? You were correct at first - RLML ship will be able to shoot at any frigate... until it runs out of ammo somewhat too early... and while reloading everyone will laugh at him shooting back and your Caracal hero will die before reload is finished.
You're not supposed to fly alone in a blob of frigate... You're not supposed to be a "hero".
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2575 - 2013-12-02 16:33:31 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Yes, but this aspect was allowed by the fact RLML obsoleted all other medium missiles in most cases ; in other words, this aspect was possible because RLML were OP.

Well, now they're junk. Not sure what we've achieved.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2576 - 2013-12-02 16:33:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Niena Nuamzzar
Look what we have here, quite shocking:

CCP Rise wrote:
In general, metrics show that missiles have certainly come down in popularity some since HML changes but overall they are still performing well.

Soon there will be an update - metrics show that hardly anyone seems to be using missiles since recent RLML changes LolTwisted
Dr Sraggles
The Covenant of Blood
#2577 - 2013-12-02 16:40:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr Sraggles
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
RIP RLML.
RIP RHML.

I really (really) tried, but these new missile systems are completely pointless outside of blobs. If anything, they give blobs an advantage by allowing them to boost initial DPS. If we want to eliminate solo play, this is the surest way to do it. I had three brief engagements today vs. a Loki, a Proteus and a mixed fleet (I had equipped full RLMLs in the hopes I'd happen upon a frigate, but we play the cards we're given…)

In the first engagement with the Loki, he managed to get a point on me with an overheated warp disruptor, so I decided to use my MWD to keep him out of weapons range. I was only able to knock his shields down about 20% before exhausting my supply of RLMLs, whereby the 40-second "reload of death" kicked in. We were both overheating our MWDs and traveling in a straight pursuit path, but as he was overheating both his MWD and disruptor - he wasn't able to keep pace and had to drop back. This gave me a window of opportunity to get clear of his point and warp to out (I clearly wasn't going to make any progress).

In the second, I was able to keep well clear of the Proteus and use the range advantage of the RLMLs to hit him. Damage was negligible, and as he couldn't get close to me (and I didn't stand a chance in a close-range battle) - we both disengaged.

The third engagement saw me jumped by several ships which immediately ECM'd me. With the additional sensor damps from the Federation NPCs, this basically shut me down so I loaded FoF missiles (it should be noted that this 40-second switch was rather nerve-racking, as several additional ships jumped in and joined pursuit). I couldn't lock anything, so I have no idea what if any damage I did (but I imagine it was practically non-existent since they continued pursuit). After exhausting a full volley and expecting even more reinforcements (local was lighting up like a Christmas tree), I aligned and got the heck out of dodge.
…..

So that's it for the grand experiment. The damage application with HMLs is practically non-existent, and the range advantage is easily mitigated with sensor dampeners. ECM shuts down target painters, leaving you with FoF missiles. If you have to resort to FoF missiles, you're dead already (you just don't realize it yet). RLMLs are pointless for all the aforementioned reasons and one more: their only saving grace was the fitting requirements, and now you run them at the expense of tank, too. RHMLs would be interesting if they knocked the power requirements down 5-fold, but again - "40 second death" awaits. So I'm left with HAMs, because they're the only missile system left. I lose range, gain fitting over HMLs (slightly over RLMLs), greatly increased damage application and massive sustained DPS boost (400-ish on a Covert configuration; around 600 or so non-Covert). Faction launchers also hold 75 rounds of ammunition, so even with a 2.25-second ROF - that's a lot of shooting.
…..

My proposal:
1. Reinstate RLMLs to pre-Rubicon specs.
2. Revise RHMLs to the first iteration (they're about as useful on battleships as a screen door right now).
3. Implement some adjustments to LMs, HAMs and HMs (see previous posts for specifics).
4. Implement a passive ballistic enhancement module, similar to the tracking enhancement module for guns.



^^^ This is shocking, and surprising...

Next thing you know Bouh will actually fire a missile and even though he will revel in the easy mode flying of the ship will find that he actually can't kill anything and then DIAF to a Velator.

He will then lead the nerf herd against auto cannons due to their ridiculous burst dps that is so easy to apply.

ps Nerf Velators they are OP as compared to the Ibis.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2578 - 2013-12-02 16:51:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
RIP Caldari.
Phoenix is dead… Drake is dead… Caracal is dead… Tengu will soon be joining them.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#2579 - 2013-12-02 17:03:33 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
RIP Caldari.
Phoenix is dead… Drake is dead… Caracal is dead… Tengu will soon be joining them.

They're not dead. They're just very situational, niche support weapons. Thanks CCP40sec and the rest of the missile support team. Twisted
Unless you're the missile expert Bouh and then they're the boogeyman under your bed that makes everyone else think you're an idiot. Mainly because you are an idiot....
Daniel Doormant
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2580 - 2013-12-02 17:04:32 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
I'll try to hit a few points raised in the last page or two, sorry if it's not everything.

Few comments about ignoring feedback still....
I'm still trying to gather as much info as possible and if you guys are using it and are able to say it's not fun (separate from it not being good, which is a different issue and could be corrected with numbers tweaks like 30s reload or more ammo per launcher) please post and let me know.


In celebration of something different for RLML and RHML. It doesn't have to go back to the way it was but here are some minor suggestions.
1. At a minimum increase the payload size one missile per Meta level so the meta 4 meta 5 and faction modules are more "Fun" and making the faction modules sought after. Keeping meta 0 Base line the same.
2. Reduce the Reload time by at least 5 to 10 seconds. If you need to justify a graduation then 1 or 2 seconds reload reduction per Meta level keeping meta 0 baseline the same and giving a 35 or 30 second reload time for Tech 2 and so on.
3. If you must offset this in good conscience then shave the rate of fire a bit but not so much that the Paper DPS goes down even further.
Having DPS that can hit lower sig targets was offset by travel time to target now it is totally useless solo and for missions I guess I'll just go back to doing
My attempt with Rapid Heavies on a Geddon was disappointing to be sure and will be going back to long range fit rather than a close in brawler with crap DPS and damage projection till you "balance" this. When I tried my rapid light Caracal, Arbitrator and Celistis I was heartbroken. I'm just glad I didn't train up for a sacrilege.