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Open Floor: Recons
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Karash Amerius
The Seven Shadows
Scotch And Tea.
#21 - 2013-12-02 15:17:12 UTC
Well now that the server is rebooting, anyone else have some good ideas to refresh the 'recon' class? I am using quotes because they hardly recon very well.

Karash Amerius Operative, Sutoka
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2013-12-02 15:34:09 UTC
i didn't read the thread but wanted to add my voice to the 90% of posts ( i assume) that think it is crazy that a "recon" class ship needs 3 or more warps to cross a system that every other class of ship can do in 1 warp.
how is holding everyone up while they wait for you to catch up in any way "recon"?

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85
Mr Doctor
Therapy.
The Initiative.
#23 - 2013-12-02 15:42:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Doctor
All recons except Amarr are in a good place right now except maybe a boost to cap and maybe a warp speed percentage per level or Recon. They dont need touched much except a small buff to Amarr. A small neut range bonus to Pilgrim (half the curse could do) OR an extra slot OR a small DPS increase with a little extra speed would be fine. Curse is a little tougher.... a little speed buff and a little hitpoint buff should do it.

A moving cyno is the worst idea ever.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#24 - 2013-12-02 16:19:55 UTC
Karash Amerius wrote:
Not really wanting to give up on this just yet. Anyone else have ideas for a viable recon class?


idk, the recons are rather viable as they are.

.
Radhe Amatin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2013-12-03 12:57:38 UTC
Meyr wrote:
Cyno's, much like heavy missiles, really do require a revamp as a module class, not as part of a ship-class rebalance.

For Recons, I think that the Combat Recons need a 10-15% EHP buff across the board. The Force Recons seem to need more speed, especially while cloaked, as they seem to be used for gaining warp-ins during most fleets.

E-War, in and of itself, seems to be in a pretty good place, with the exception of target painters - they seem to need either a buff of 20-10% (less as the Meta levels rise), or the Minmatar Recons need a significantly greater bonus for Target Painters. I can't even remember the last time one of them was used for anything except their Web Bonus.


totally agree with a buff in ehp for combat recons since their role is ewar support in large fleets.
Not sure what to say about target painters.
I would like a better cap pool for recons(those long warps are a pain on the cap even with warp drive operation at 5) , better warp speed and better agility. They are covert recon ships they need to be fast and agile.
As suggested ewar on them its at a good place right now .
Pilgim need a range boost for neuts.Perhaps instead of an amount drain bonus should get an range bonus?
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2013-12-03 13:40:41 UTC
I'm not personally aware of any major problems with the force recons (Rapier and arazus right? I always mix the two classes up) however the non-cloaky versions of recons really seem to be lacking in the usefullness department. Seems to be very little difference between the two even though they have seperate roles
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#27 - 2013-12-03 16:26:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Katrina Oniseki
What if Cyno Recons were either:

1.) Immune to being rooted by lighting a cyno, allowing them to keep moving around the field. The cyno goes down if the Recon leaves the grid. Disallow cloaking while the cyno module is active, of course.

2.) Rooted to the cyno as normal, but the cyno does not drop if the Recon is shot down. Cynos lit by Recons will always last the full 10 minutes

Katrina Oniseki
Praesus Lecti
The Terrifying League Of Dog Fort
Deepwater Hooligans
#28 - 2013-12-03 16:44:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Praesus Lecti
Karash Amerius wrote:
Barbara Nichole wrote:

There will always be some things that cannot be accomplished solo. This is good.


Are there really any players in game that pride themselves on being the best cyno deploy-er for their alliance? I highly doubt that.


You're quite incorrect in your assumption. I've had the pleasure of knowing several people (shout out to Jake Rivers and 4 Degrees) who had an uncanny ability to always have cyno alts quite near where one is needed. You don't know how valuable it can be when you have access to that level of flexibility.

Back to your topic:

I'd like to see the Amarr recons receive a bit of love as well. Pilgrim should see a sizeable increase in neutralizer range and a speed/agility buff. Curse needs more range in the neutralizers (to at least get closer to the range that Stasis Webs and Warp Disruptors can reach) and receive a HP buff either through making it a dedicated shield tanker or a dedicated armor tanker. Right now it's **** as both.

EDIT:

With regard to cynos on recons. All recons have the cyno duration reduced to 30 seconds (that of covert ops cynos) and cynos lit by Force Recons do not appear on the overview.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#29 - 2013-12-03 16:45:44 UTC
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
What if Cyno Recons were either:

1.) Immune to being rooted by lighting a cyno, allowing them to keep moving around the field. The cyno goes down if the Recon leaves the grid. Disallow cloaking while the cyno module is active, of course.

2.) Rooted to the cyno as normal, but the cyno does not drop if the Recon is shot down. Cynos lit by Recons will always last the full 10 minutes

The recon needs a hook.
Otherwise, it would almost never be a cost / effort effective means of lighting a cyno compared to a disposable noob ship.

The 50% off time duration is a joke. Most cyno events have fulfilled their needs in the first two minutes, if that long.

Your two ideas might do it.
My previous suggestion, tossing out the time duration bonus in favor of making a recon invulnerable while the cyno is up, also adds this hook.

You need a reason to risk a half billion ISK fitted ship, over a free noob boat instead. There is not a good reason in the game right now.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Icarus Able
Refuse.Resist
#30 - 2013-12-03 16:52:39 UTC
I cant speak to most but Hugin needs more Mids. Its painful trying to get a tank+ Webs and painter. (not asking for a huge tank but something would be nice.
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#31 - 2013-12-03 17:01:13 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:

My previous suggestion, tossing out the time duration bonus in favor of making a recon invulnerable while the cyno is up, also adds this hook.


I can't agree to that.

Absolutely no ship in the game should be invulnerable except CONCORD and Developers. There is serious debate against the former, and the latter still get shot down from time to time.

Katrina Oniseki
Karash Amerius
The Seven Shadows
Scotch And Tea.
#32 - 2013-12-03 17:12:12 UTC
Why not get rid of the Cyno role for recons all together?

Karash Amerius Operative, Sutoka
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#33 - 2013-12-03 17:12:37 UTC
Do people actually use recons to light cynos instead of covops?
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#34 - 2013-12-03 17:21:22 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Do people actually use recons to light cynos instead of covops?


Yes. Hot droppers use them often. Covert cynos don't show up on overview. So they drop cyno on some ratting scrub, blops in, kill ratter and harass or kill support until cyno is down and then cloak up again, rinse and repeat.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#35 - 2013-12-03 17:21:35 UTC
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:

My previous suggestion, tossing out the time duration bonus in favor of making a recon invulnerable while the cyno is up, also adds this hook.


I can't agree to that.

Absolutely no ship in the game should be invulnerable except CONCORD and Developers. There is serious debate against the former, and the latter still get shot down from time to time.

Invulnerable for cyno duration is not the same as being invulnerable in general.
For context, when you reinforce a POS, both sides find out about it and consequently get to fight over it.

This cyno, assuming a hostile is present to notice, throws a beacon up on the overview for ten minutes.
In that ten minutes, all interested parties get to decide whether they want to warp to this beacon, and either attack or defend that recon.
Obviously, the recon might be bait, with a large force waiting till the last moment to pop in and attack. Either way, the recon is going to be sitting still.

I use the POS example for context, in that the recon will also become a focal point for possible activity in a similar manner.

Keep in mind, this would just be for recons, not just any ship fitting a cyno.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Karash Amerius
The Seven Shadows
Scotch And Tea.
#36 - 2013-12-03 17:27:19 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Do people actually use recons to light cynos instead of covops?


Using a ship on average 5 to 7 times the cost of a covert ops is generally not a wise decision. We are talking about in a combat / operations situation obviously. Otherwise people just use rookie ships near stations (just for any noobs reading this thread).

Karash Amerius Operative, Sutoka
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#37 - 2013-12-03 17:28:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:

My previous suggestion, tossing out the time duration bonus in favor of making a recon invulnerable while the cyno is up, also adds this hook.


I can't agree to that.

Absolutely no ship in the game should be invulnerable except CONCORD and Developers. There is serious debate against the former, and the latter still get shot down from time to time.

Invulnerable for cyno duration is not the same as being invulnerable in general.
For context, when you reinforce a POS, both sides find out about it and consequently get to fight over it.

This cyno, assuming a hostile is present to notice, throws a beacon up on the overview for ten minutes.
In that ten minutes, all interested parties get to decide whether they want to warp to this beacon, and either attack or defend that recon.
Obviously, the recon might be bait, with a large force waiting till the last moment to pop in and attack. Either way, the recon is going to be sitting still.

I use the POS example for context, in that the recon will also become a focal point for possible activity in a similar manner.

Keep in mind, this would just be for recons, not just any ship fitting a cyno.


I like the idea but doubt it would ever be implemented. How about allowing them to enter a bastion type mode where resistances and reps get boosted while cyno is lit? Still killable if u have enough people. Or like you mentioned could still allow people to wait till cyno is down to pounce.

Edit: Maybe include those bonuses into the covert cyno module itself to keep from clogging up the highs.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Karash Amerius
The Seven Shadows
Scotch And Tea.
#38 - 2013-12-03 17:30:39 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:

Invulnerable for cyno duration is not the same as being invulnerable in general.
For context, when you reinforce a POS, both sides find out about it and consequently get to fight over it.

This cyno, assuming a hostile is present to notice, throws a beacon up on the overview for ten minutes.
In that ten minutes, all interested parties get to decide whether they want to warp to this beacon, and either attack or defend that recon.
Obviously, the recon might be bait, with a large force waiting till the last moment to pop in and attack. Either way, the recon is going to be sitting still.

I use the POS example for context, in that the recon will also become a focal point for possible activity in a similar manner.

Keep in mind, this would just be for recons, not just any ship fitting a cyno.


So basically use the ship to draw a line in the sand? It is not an elegant suggestion, but I give it points for originality.

Karash Amerius Operative, Sutoka
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#39 - 2013-12-03 17:42:38 UTC
Karash Amerius wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:

Invulnerable for cyno duration is not the same as being invulnerable in general.
For context, when you reinforce a POS, both sides find out about it and consequently get to fight over it.

This cyno, assuming a hostile is present to notice, throws a beacon up on the overview for ten minutes.
In that ten minutes, all interested parties get to decide whether they want to warp to this beacon, and either attack or defend that recon.
Obviously, the recon might be bait, with a large force waiting till the last moment to pop in and attack. Either way, the recon is going to be sitting still.

I use the POS example for context, in that the recon will also become a focal point for possible activity in a similar manner.

Keep in mind, this would just be for recons, not just any ship fitting a cyno.


So basically use the ship to draw a line in the sand? It is not an elegant suggestion, but I give it points for originality.

Basically, yes.

It becomes a gathering point for a conflict, and while it is uncertain how many opponents will show up, everyone knows about the recon and the cyno.
Kind of like a party invitation.

Stitch Kaneland:
The point of this is to create that moment when the cyno drops, and the ships with hostile intent determine the fate of that recon.
If the recon was bait, or had strong backing, we can presume it will have a fighting force ready to go.
That beacon on the overview sent the invitation to the opposing side.

Whoever lights the cyno has made a bet, and the ante is that recon.

Also, I would not include covert cyno into this ability, just regular.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
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