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Exploit: Bumping in order to prevent E-Warp

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Kat Ayclism
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#81 - 2013-11-29 19:58:45 UTC
Kristoffon Ellecon wrote:
Phoenus wrote:
Kristoffon Ellecon wrote:
ITT: PL buttmad that it wasn't them that pulled this off and collected an epic amount of tears


Yes, I mean. It's totally not like we realised how retardedly broken the mechanic was, and petitioned CCP months ago prior to using it to check if it was allowed?

Blink

And look how many titan kills you got for it.

lmao is that supposed to imply that we didn't get titan kills during that time?

hell, rocketx alone got 2-3
RoCkEt X
Hostile.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#82 - 2013-11-29 20:01:22 UTC
While it is correct that i conversed with a member of shadow cartel prior to the event, i made the point that in the petitions i know of, this mechanic was never definitively declared an exploit. Instead, we got:

'It sounds like it would be a definite abuse of game mechanics'

'It could be an exploit, and players undertaking such actions could face sanctions from CCP'

While the SHDWC guys would have known it was a 'grey area' or been aware that some may consider it an exploit, my conversations with them since lead me to believe that they themselves did not consider it to be an exploit.

To knowingly use a mechanic that is either widely known, or declared an exploit by CCP is one thing. To do something controversial is nothing new, this is what SHDWC believed they were doing. CCP has had the chance to declare this an exploit a long time ago when i made a thread months ago, and they did not.

The titan's loss is due to CCP's lack of action at the time, SHDWC were merely the people who pulled the trigger first. Eventually, someone else would have done it.

In line with this, i believe 3 things should happen as a result:

1 - the titan pilot gets his ship returned to him
2 - members of SHDWC receive no formal punishment.
3 - SHDWC, and ALL OF EVE is reminded to report bugs/flaws that could possibly considered exploits before blowing up people's titans with it.


When i posted the original thread 7 months ago: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=224862

I knew this was a mechanic that needed fixing. I also made it clear that i had not used the mechanic because i knew it's implications. I am glad the issue has received the attention it deserves, and that we now have a solution, and i consider this a success for all parties. CCP, SHDWC, and the pilot who lost his titan.



-Rock.
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#83 - 2013-11-29 22:20:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Unforgiven Storm
thank you, now I can login my useless ship and do nothing with it in game, other than be inside a pos shield.

Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-)
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#84 - 2013-11-29 22:47:25 UTC
W0wbagger wrote:
Kristoffon Ellecon wrote:
ITT: PL buttmad that it wasn't them that pulled this off and collected an epic amount of tears


Oh man please note kristoff does not speak for us. We were unaware of existing petitions (they are private), We thank ccp for clarifying the situation and we note that dt were amazing calm about it, I'm sure we would have raged a lot more had it been the other way. Believe or not we didn't think it was an exploit, we know now. End of story.

Oh please. Anyone with half a brain can tell this kind of trick isn't kosher.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#85 - 2013-11-29 22:51:58 UTC
I'm not saying you should be punished, but you're dumb if you thought you could keep doing this with impunity.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
icutwood
E404
#86 - 2013-11-29 23:13:43 UTC  |  Edited by: icutwood
I seriously can't believe you're claiming you thought this was intended functionality; if that were true then focus points would work, take a hint.

I hate cheaters in games as is, but then you top it off by having the hubris to come onto forums and claim total ignorance, it will make my day if you get lengthy bans.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#87 - 2013-11-29 23:47:39 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Khador Vess wrote:
BigSako wrote:

you also clearly dont understand how the mechanics work.

You can NOT probe the emergency warp OUT spot of somebody. Well you can, but it won't help you because the ship will just disappear (unless it logged out with aggression).

The spot to spawn in, is a completely different spot. The spot is being picked randomly at exactly 1 Million Kilometer from the log out spot (so in most cases for supercapitals, a POS). It will with certainty not be the same spot you disappeared after your emergency warp out.

Now in this case, titans and supers take (depending on fit and pilot skills) between 11 seconds and 40 seconds to be fully aligned to enter warp, which is more then enough time to probe and warp a bumping ship to it.

Battleships and below will literally align in 15 seconds, which is NOT enough time to be probed down and warped onto. So your statement "Someone lost a shiny ship and now suddenly its an exploit" is absolutely wrong, because noone has ever lost a NON shiny ship to this game mechanic (and I consider carriers, freighters and above as shinys).


To re-iterate what has been said: When you log in (and you didnt have aggression before), you can
NOT be warp scrambled
NOT be bubbled (you can, but you will just warp out of bubbles)
NOT cancel your warp
NOT jump to a cyno
NOT cloak
NOT defend yourself properly

I have tried this out like 2 years ago already, when I was fishing a titan, and I probed it down in time and fleet warped a dictor to it. The titan just warped out of the bubble - and done. As a matter of fact, this "mechanic" has been known long enough and many plans have been made to kill titans/supercarriers in exactly this way, and most of the time people did rise their opinion on how this is an exploit.
Another matter of fact: There has already been a case like this, when a supercarrier/titan was tackled and the aggressors were claiming an exploit when the super/titan warped out of the bubble.
This was even recorded and put on youtube, though I can't find that. There was a huge post and uproar about an exploit at that time.


I didn't fully understand the very first PART of this, thanks for clearing that up, i thought the two spots were the same, they are not however it still makes no difference though.

your ship is in space outside the pos, thats the mechanic of the e warp. Your ship gets killed because someone lays a trap, thats the long and short of it, shiny or not, someone planned and executed a trap well...



Jesus ******* christ. This is dead simple. E-warp mechanic unavoidably forbids the pilot from interacting with the game world in any way until it's terminated. Since the pilot is unavoidably barred from interacting with the world, the world must be similarly barred from interacting with the pilot.

You would have to have spent a considerable amount of time eating paste to fail to see that this is one of the least ambiguous exploits ever.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Firefox4312 Yatolila
State War Academy
Caldari State
#88 - 2013-11-30 00:54:26 UTC
Zloco Crendraven wrote:
You just made a ship almost impossible to kill even more harder. Cmn CCP wth are you thinking?

Decisions are what makes EVE a so beautiful game.
You want your caps tanky with slaves, go ahead but they are less agile and slower.
You want your capital ships not probable? Than go with nano, stabilizers and nomad set.

CCP always and i repeat always caters to the big entities.


Uhm? Abusing a mechanic to kill a super is catering to the "big entities." I didn't realize BALEX was this bad and whined when CCP fixes things for the better.

I know BALEX has supers, why don't we just go bump all of them in ewarp so they can't fight back and die in a fire, or is that not an abuse of game mechanics?

These mechanics are supposed to make things like supers and titans safer, yet there were an actual deathtrap to them if people were competent enough to probe them down and pull off the bumps.

Oh, and the only super that nomads works for is the rag. Nothing else can align and warp fast enough, and if you are in a Bus, nyx, aeon, etc.. You want slaves, not nomads.
Firefox4312 Yatolila
State War Academy
Caldari State
#89 - 2013-11-30 00:57:53 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Khador Vess wrote:
BigSako wrote:

you also clearly dont understand how the mechanics work.

You can NOT probe the emergency warp OUT spot of somebody. Well you can, but it won't help you because the ship will just disappear (unless it logged out with aggression).

The spot to spawn in, is a completely different spot. The spot is being picked randomly at exactly 1 Million Kilometer from the log out spot (so in most cases for supercapitals, a POS). It will with certainty not be the same spot you disappeared after your emergency warp out.

Now in this case, titans and supers take (depending on fit and pilot skills) between 11 seconds and 40 seconds to be fully aligned to enter warp, which is more then enough time to probe and warp a bumping ship to it.

Battleships and below will literally align in 15 seconds, which is NOT enough time to be probed down and warped onto. So your statement "Someone lost a shiny ship and now suddenly its an exploit" is absolutely wrong, because noone has ever lost a NON shiny ship to this game mechanic (and I consider carriers, freighters and above as shinys).


To re-iterate what has been said: When you log in (and you didnt have aggression before), you can
NOT be warp scrambled
NOT be bubbled (you can, but you will just warp out of bubbles)
NOT cancel your warp
NOT jump to a cyno
NOT cloak
NOT defend yourself properly

I have tried this out like 2 years ago already, when I was fishing a titan, and I probed it down in time and fleet warped a dictor to it. The titan just warped out of the bubble - and done. As a matter of fact, this "mechanic" has been known long enough and many plans have been made to kill titans/supercarriers in exactly this way, and most of the time people did rise their opinion on how this is an exploit.
Another matter of fact: There has already been a case like this, when a supercarrier/titan was tackled and the aggressors were claiming an exploit when the super/titan warped out of the bubble.
This was even recorded and put on youtube, though I can't find that. There was a huge post and uproar about an exploit at that time.


I didn't fully understand the very first PART of this, thanks for clearing that up, i thought the two spots were the same, they are not however it still makes no difference though.

your ship is in space outside the pos, thats the mechanic of the e warp. Your ship gets killed because someone lays a trap, thats the long and short of it, shiny or not, someone planned and executed a trap well...



Jesus ******* christ. This is dead simple. E-warp mechanic unavoidably forbids the pilot from interacting with the game world in any way until it's terminated. Since the pilot is unavoidably barred from interacting with the world, the world must be similarly barred from interacting with the pilot.

You would have to have spent a considerable amount of time eating paste to fail to see that this is one of the least ambiguous exploits ever.


You have to remember the IQ of some people on the internet is well below the average ape. Things like "game mechanics" escape their simple minds, and no matter how much you try to explain to them, they won't fully understand it nor will they know what to do about it.
TheOldBrutos
Yarrbear Inc.
#90 - 2013-11-30 02:42:36 UTC
icutwood wrote:
I seriously can't believe you're claiming you thought this was intended functionality; if that were true then focus points would work, take a hint.

I hate cheaters in games as is, but then you top it off by having the hubris to come onto forums and claim total ignorance, it will make my day if you get lengthy bans.


ban Zloco as well Big smile
Soft Step
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#91 - 2013-12-01 15:15:35 UTC
lol

If freighters have no modules (to activate), and they're not close enough to a gate to warp (therefore no benefit to cancelling warp), they should be exempt from this ruling, right?
Jamison
Southern Gothic
#92 - 2013-12-02 14:52:17 UTC
Zloco Crendraven wrote:
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
Zloco Crendraven wrote:
You just made a ship almost impossible to kill even more harder. Cmn CCP wth are you thinking?

Decisions are what makes EVE a so beautiful game.
You want your caps tanky with slaves, go ahead but they are less agile and slower.
You want your capital ships not probable? Than go with nano, stabilizers and nomad set.

CCP always and i repeat always caters to the big entities.


They're supposed to be killed through real fights or engagements anyways.


Who said that, where is that written?
99% of Titan kills is anyway a pilots mistake or an awox.

What Shadow cartel did is much much better than both of those mentioned above.


Yeah , ganking a ship with absolutely no way to defend itself, seems totally legit.
Celly S
Neutin Local LLC
#93 - 2013-12-02 15:07:38 UTC
Sethur Blackcoat wrote:
CCP Dolan wrote:
We can very clearly see this in our logs. Just let us know if something like this has happened to you and our records will do all the verifying (although fraps or screen shots certainly wouldn't hurt).

Are you seriously claiming your logs actually show something.




shhhh, don't remind him....

o/
Celly Smunt


Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.
Sh0plifter
Underworld Property Accounting Partnership
#94 - 2013-12-02 15:42:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Sh0plifter
Soft Step wrote:
lol

If freighters have no modules (to activate), and they're not close enough to a gate to warp (therefore no benefit to cancelling warp), they should be exempt from this ruling, right?
You're an idiot. Stop talking and learn to read so you can comprehend what the actual discussion is.

Quicker Warp time implants responses: Get ******. There is no reason a supercapital would ever benefit from any speed/warp/align implant sets ever, especially a titan.

The only mechanic working as advertised in this is all the chimera/phoenix pilots raging about how its legit because they have the time since they aren't allowed in fleet with their caps.

Also noting: SC has reported a character I know of for trying to probe out their nyx on login to do the same thing several months ago. So, get ****** and I hope you all receive nice bans purely off being hypocritical bitches.
Giorgos Rbs
Lead Head Inc
#95 - 2013-12-04 02:22:04 UTC
CCP Dolan wrote:
Chribba wrote:
Question arises, how would a pilot in that situation verify this properly to you guys?

/c


We can very clearly see this in our logs. Just let us know if something like this has happened to you and our records will do all the verifying (although fraps or screen shots certainly wouldn't hurt).


GMs are not allowed to accept player screenshots in petitions and they are not allowed to accept the petitioner's description of the situation (of a ship lost due to a "bug" for example). If the ccp side of the logs shows nothing out of the ordinary its supposed to be a legitimate loss.. and off you go with the best GM wishes. "We hope you will recover quickly from your loss" Smile

Sometimes logs won't show a client side bug Shocked

Not talking about the titan's case here, its for another recent petition

-Gio
Sphit Ker
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#96 - 2013-12-06 15:36:58 UTC
CCP Masterplan wrote:
>emergency warp


Would it be possible to set the ship's signature radius to the lowest possible value for the duration of the warp? It occurs to me that it would render it quite impossible to probe down then dumb etc.

Just a thought.

It knows what you think.
MadMuppet
Critical Mass Inc
#97 - 2013-12-08 16:05:56 UTC
Sphit Ker wrote:
CCP Masterplan wrote:
>emergency warp


Would it be possible to set the ship's signature radius to the lowest possible value for the duration of the warp? It occurs to me that it would render it quite impossible to probe down then dumb etc.

Just a thought.


That actually sounds like a good idea with it being potentially simple.

This message brought to you by Experience(tm). When common sense fails you, experience will come to the rescue. Experience(tm) from the makers of CONCORD.

"If you are part of the problem, you will be nerfed." -MadMuppet
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#98 - 2013-12-11 16:55:30 UTC
On log in
Make ship non collidable until it first enters warp or is tackled.
MYKILL
Silver Octopus
Infernal Octopus
#99 - 2013-12-22 09:08:54 UTC
I love to see the tears of these large alliances (well all tears) but it gets really sad when CCP starts to wipe them away. CCP have you any idea what tears are worth in this game? They are priceless so don't be putting an isk value to them. I noticed Pandemic Legion were the first to grab back there's on this post. It's just hogwash, we have lots of big ships that fall into the criteria of utterly defenceless and they are fair game and even get penalised with a combat timer. If its in space and a group of pilots see a window of opportunity to destroy that ship because the dumb pilot couldn't be bothered to put it somewhere safe why is their stupidity the attackers fault?

CCP are going soft but its only ever with the groups that provide their largest income, hilarious. Not. Taking the Ruth out of ruthless just leaves less.