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Crime & Punishment

 
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What is the point of merc alliances?

Author
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2013-12-02 01:32:15 UTC
I don't understand the confusion. Mercs are hired guns. Mercs may also have friends. If one Merc corp won't fight their friendly merc corp you likely aren't offering to pay enough.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2013-12-02 01:52:47 UTC
Sleeper Cell Agent wrote:
Hi

It's a serious question

For instance, a corp is decked by P I R A T alliance, T3/faction BS pilots.

They contact wh0res in Space, Marmite and are told "sorry, we are allied with these guys, we can't help you"

Now forgive me if im wrong but the meaning of MERCENARY is they have no loyalty's to anyone but ISK.

What is the point of being a mercenary alliance if you won't take contracts agaisnt viable targets that will actually fight?

Because from where im standing, Marmite, P I R A T and Wh0res are cowards who only deck targets that can't fight back.

How can they call themselves mercs when they wont fight actual mercs, which is stupid

??

Please, sumone explain this to me, cause atm i feel nothing but contempt for these alliances.


Hah highsec problems, highsec mercs are hilariously impotent. You too could laugh at their impotence, the benevolent landlords in the north are happy to acquire new tenants.

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Xolve
State War Academy
Caldari State
#23 - 2013-12-02 02:32:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Xolve
La Nariz wrote:
the benevolent landlords in the north are happy to acquire new tenants.


The West too. Lol

Nullsec alliances having blues is one thing, Highsec 'merc' outfits having blues reduces the chances of fighting another 'competent' enemy (I use competent here loosely, to describe the offset idea that someone might actually shoot them back- the amount of confusion this would cause most outfits would be a spectacle of hilarity and absurdity to behold).

edit: Come to think of it, based on that assertion- blues in Nullsec serve the exact same purpose, well for the CFC anyway.
Xavier Higdon
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#24 - 2013-12-02 03:27:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Xavier Higdon
Eh, getting a war dec from a merc corp is a minor annoyance at the worst. It might mean trying to dock up in time to get a PVP ship before they finish jumping between belts, but normally it just means no visiting trade hubs during the "war." In the week we've been at war with them, they've been in our area twice, for about 10 minutes each time. They've caught a Stratios in a gate camp and an industrial off the Amarr undock. The Stratios had to be taken down by a group of T3s I think, but the Iteron only took one ship. Their skill points are undeniable though.
Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
#25 - 2013-12-02 04:24:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Zeus Maximo
Anya Klibor wrote:

No, that's not it at all. I remember Zeus Maximo starting a shitstorm on these forums because Marmite joined a war against them as allies of a defender, demanding that mercs "honor the contracts of other mercs". In essence, Zeus laid the foundation of this whole "blue donut" bullshit for high sec, where-by the larger mercenary alliances wouldn't help against each other because then, ships could be lost for both sides!


This is also known as Max effectiveness Cool

Its pointless to try and trick and another merc group that uses the same bag of tricks. You all know what is needed to win and you all know what will be brought to the field. When efficiency is on the line neither group will take the fight considering the primary goal is to win without a doubt.

Therefore in high sec, merc alliance versus merc alliance = pointless

A question that I wish someone would ask me.

"Zeus, what is your group up to?"

My response would be: Farming kills from mercenary alliances that won't change their ways.

Our latest target has been Forsaken Asylum:
Sanadoon
Blastorita
Krishtor
Griznatch
bman102
Nikita Romeo
Elite Saiyajin

"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."

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La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-12-02 04:59:22 UTC
Xolve wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
the benevolent landlords in the north are happy to acquire new tenants.


The West too. Lol

Nullsec alliances having blues is one thing, Highsec 'merc' outfits having blues reduces the chances of fighting another 'competent' enemy (I use competent here loosely, to describe the offset idea that someone might actually shoot them back- the amount of confusion this would cause most outfits would be a spectacle of hilarity and absurdity to behold).

edit: Come to think of it, based on that assertion- blues in Nullsec serve the exact same purpose, well for the CFC anyway.


:colbert: we are terrible at this game.

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Bella Rugente
Perkone
Caldari State
#27 - 2013-12-02 05:40:47 UTC
Tah'ris Khlador wrote:
Mercs have friends too and sometimes those relationships are more valuable than your tiny amount of isk.


This pretty much nails it, not much room for debate.
gnshadowninja
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-12-02 05:45:44 UTC
Xavier Higdon wrote:
Eh, getting a war dec from a merc corp is a minor annoyance at the worst. It might mean trying to dock up in time to get a PVP ship before they finish jumping between belts, but normally it just means no visiting trade hubs during the "war." In the week we've been at war with them, they've been in our area twice, for about 10 minutes each time. They've caught a Stratios in a gate camp and an industrial off the Amarr undock. The Stratios had to be taken down by a group of T3s I think, but the Iteron only took one ship. Their skill points are undeniable though.


Will take your complaint under consideration and improve my presence to your lovely area :)

Xolve
State War Academy
Caldari State
#29 - 2013-12-02 05:46:29 UTC
Zeus Maximo wrote:

Its pointless to try and trick and another merc group that uses the same bag of tricks. You all know what is needed to win and you all know what will be brought to the field. When efficiency is on the line neither group will take the fight considering the primary goal is to win without a doubt.


This is pretty far from the truth actually- Mercs fighting Mercs was always a way to keep things interesting. While it's fun to have competition, it also brushes up individual pilot skill for people into that kind of thing and creates a friendly bit of banter about who's on top.

'Friends' can lose a few ships to each other and still be friends. Saying you care about efficiency to the point where a fight wouldn't occur is a backwards way of saying you put entirely too much stock into killboard stats.
Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
#30 - 2013-12-02 06:57:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Zeus Maximo
Xolve wrote:
Zeus Maximo wrote:

Its pointless to try and trick and another merc group that uses the same bag of tricks. You all know what is needed to win and you all know what will be brought to the field. When efficiency is on the line neither group will take the fight considering the primary goal is to win without a doubt.


This is pretty far from the truth actually- Mercs fighting Mercs was always a way to keep things interesting. While it's fun to have competition, it also brushes up individual pilot skill for people into that kind of thing and creates a friendly bit of banter about who's on top.

'Friends' can lose a few ships to each other and still be friends. Saying you care about efficiency to the point where a fight wouldn't occur is a backwards way of saying you put entirely too much stock into killboard stats.


I will try to be more specific because the current situation is kind of confusing.

There are large merc alliances in high sec that complete their contracts off sheer amount of kills. It doesn't matter how they get them, just as long as they get them.

Then there are specialized merc alliances that don't care about quantity but quality. They will do strategic hits on a high value target.

Lastly there are the groups that do the very thing you referenced; dec other people to improve skill.

Everyone in high sec fits into these stereotypes so in a way you are right. When two seasoned merc hunter groups dec each other that is when the pointless effort comes into play. It kinds of like trying to be faster than your image in a mirror. Group 1 loads up in battleships so group 2 switches to proteus's. Group 1 notices so they dock up and change to a neut heavy fleet. Group 2 gets the vibe so they switch to ranged ships to counter Group 1. Group 1 then switches to kite so Group 2 goes all web and sensor dampeners. Then we get back to square one and one timezone is ready for bed.

These counters can potentially happen in every merc war but eventually there is too much effort required for such little amount of results. Why would Marmite keep a perma war with Devils if it shuts down their Amarr sector of kills. People then get unhappy and start to cause negative waves. Then they both have to be on guard which takes away from their task of mass slaughters. Eventually this will lead to a loss in contracts for both sides......

Either way, when people with the same habits meet up they tend to be friends. At the moment every group has their own little "sector" and they seem to be happy with it. Killboard stats are useful for high sec mercs because they help pull in the big money. Why charge 800 mil when your stats allow you to pull in 3 bil? What else would the client look at?

"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."

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Xolve
State War Academy
Caldari State
#31 - 2013-12-02 08:22:47 UTC
Zeus Maximo wrote:
Why charge 800 mil when your stats allow you to pull in 3 bil? What else would the client look at?


Nobody in highsec is worth 3b/week.

I never mentioned perma-wars and I'm all to familiar with the echelons of the 'mercenary' calling; I was however pointing out that fighting other experienced PvPers allows less skilled recruits and people relatively new to the way of the gun a way to brush up on their skills and enjoy the idea that they are shooting something that shoots back.

I typically scoff at the mere mention of highsec pvp because nine times out of ten, the deceased was a person unfamiliar with game mechanics that died with no intention of ever firing a shot at another player (or truth be told, drifted to far off a station and died to fast to realize what happened).

Also- and I'm just spit balling here, but wouldn't a week of war games with one another not only increase the visibility of your competence in comparison to other groups but also give you the chance to stress test new doctrines, comps and tactics? The only problem I see with the current situation of everybody and their mother running a highsec merc corp- is how can you justify that you are worth more than anyone else?

If you want a perfect example of what I mean, look up pmcunit and his abysmal streak of terrible attempts at the mercenary life.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2013-12-02 10:37:20 UTC
Tah'ris Khlador wrote:
Mercs have friends too and sometimes those relationships are more valuable than your tiny amount of isk.

Also, Wh0res is still a thing?



Define "a thing".....

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2013-12-02 10:46:16 UTC
Sleeper Cell Agent wrote:
Anya Klibor wrote:
Tah'ris Khlador wrote:
Mercs have friends too and sometimes those relationships are more valuable than your tiny amount of isk.

Also, Wh0res is still a thing?


No, that's not it at all. I remember Zeus Maximo starting a shitstorm on these forums because Marmite joined a war against them as allies of a defender, demanding that mercs "honor the contracts of other mercs". In essence, Zeus laid the foundation of this whole "blue donut" bullshit for high sec, where-by the larger mercenary alliances wouldn't help against each other because then, ships could be lost for both sides!


Kinda proves my point

mercs do not blue other mercs

ffs MC had BOB n two other corps blue n that was it, we took merc contracts against anyone

These *mercs* are a joke



Having the most powerful force in Eve blue was not enough? People smacked MC because of that alone... only when you guys formed Tortuga people had to stop calling you pets because only then you proved to not be. A lot of people had misjudged you...

You might want to stop and think you might be misjudging others right now...

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#34 - 2013-12-02 12:46:55 UTC
I wonder if Break-A-Wish foundation has 100% efficiency against Whores in Space, P I R A T and Marmite.

Oh look, we do. And we aren't blue with any of them.
Xavier Higdon
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#35 - 2013-12-02 13:46:42 UTC
gnshadowninja wrote:
Xavier Higdon wrote:
Eh, getting a war dec from a merc corp is a minor annoyance at the worst. It might mean trying to dock up in time to get a PVP ship before they finish jumping between belts, but normally it just means no visiting trade hubs during the "war." In the week we've been at war with them, they've been in our area twice, for about 10 minutes each time. They've caught a Stratios in a gate camp and an industrial off the Amarr undock. The Stratios had to be taken down by a group of T3s I think, but the Iteron only took one ship. Their skill points are undeniable though.


Will take your complaint under consideration and improve my presence to your lovely area :)



We operate in Devoid in high sec and Providence in Null. Your intel, however, was a bit off as most of us aren't in mining barges while in high sec. I'm currently in Riayavayed, but I've had a busy few days with the Thanksgiving hockey tournaments I've got contracts for so I don't think you'll see me in space. If I do get time to play, I'll likely be running missions. Hope to see you there!
Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
#36 - 2013-12-02 14:20:15 UTC
Xolve wrote:
Zeus Maximo wrote:
Why charge 800 mil when your stats allow you to pull in 3 bil? What else would the client look at?


Nobody in highsec is worth 3b/week.

I never mentioned perma-wars and I'm all to familiar with the echelons of the 'mercenary' calling; I was however pointing out that fighting other experienced PvPers allows less skilled recruits and people relatively new to the way of the gun a way to brush up on their skills and enjoy the idea that they are shooting something that shoots back.

I typically scoff at the mere mention of highsec pvp because nine times out of ten, the deceased was a person unfamiliar with game mechanics that died with no intention of ever firing a shot at another player (or truth be told, drifted to far off a station and died to fast to realize what happened).

Also- and I'm just spit balling here, but wouldn't a week of war games with one another not only increase the visibility of your competence in comparison to other groups but also give you the chance to stress test new doctrines, comps and tactics? The only problem I see with the current situation of everybody and their mother running a highsec merc corp- is how can you justify that you are worth more than anyone else?

If you want a perfect example of what I mean, look up pmcunit and his abysmal streak of terrible attempts at the mercenary life.



I could talk about this all day.

My corporation was once apart of PMCunits alliance.
I lead Whores in Space during their trillion isk months.
And I experienced Immortality with Break-A-Wish and Pendulum of Doom.

What you are saying is extremely logical but "pvpers" in some of these alliances shy away from actual merc fights. Its more of a was to preserve the ego if anything. I remember when Whores in Space decced Break-A-Wish foundation because they were stopping our Jita activities. How do you think we felt, as a 400 person alliance, getting our **** pushed in by 5 guys? Do you think we enjoyed having our main source of income deleted for a week along with multi billion isk losses?

When a major dec like that is put in the defender has 3 options.
1. fight
2. get allies and fight
3. play inactive/uncatchable so the attacker moves on

You would think that some of these alliances would want to brush up on their skill every now and again but you're wrong. They would rather avoid the mess all together and offer right of passage, money, ships, and many other things.

This is where my corporation and others like it come in. After being in whores and keeping track of the scrubs that sucked I've acquired a very nice dec list. I monitor their activity because I know they just want to sit on a gate and recruit dozens more people just like them to join them. All I have to do is let their new corporation flourish for a little bit and then off to the fields I go ready to harvest some baddies.

Hell when I lead Whores in Space I wanted to dec Whores in Space.

"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."

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Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2013-12-02 15:00:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Makes sense.. when in RL you ever saw one of the Whores that was friendly to another of the whores?

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Anya Klibor
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2013-12-02 17:04:04 UTC
Zeus Maximo wrote:
Xolve wrote:
Zeus Maximo wrote:
Why charge 800 mil when your stats allow you to pull in 3 bil? What else would the client look at?


Nobody in highsec is worth 3b/week.

I never mentioned perma-wars and I'm all to familiar with the echelons of the 'mercenary' calling; I was however pointing out that fighting other experienced PvPers allows less skilled recruits and people relatively new to the way of the gun a way to brush up on their skills and enjoy the idea that they are shooting something that shoots back.

I typically scoff at the mere mention of highsec pvp because nine times out of ten, the deceased was a person unfamiliar with game mechanics that died with no intention of ever firing a shot at another player (or truth be told, drifted to far off a station and died to fast to realize what happened).

Also- and I'm just spit balling here, but wouldn't a week of war games with one another not only increase the visibility of your competence in comparison to other groups but also give you the chance to stress test new doctrines, comps and tactics? The only problem I see with the current situation of everybody and their mother running a highsec merc corp- is how can you justify that you are worth more than anyone else?

If you want a perfect example of what I mean, look up pmcunit and his abysmal streak of terrible attempts at the mercenary life.



I could talk about this all day.

My corporation was once apart of PMCunits alliance.
I lead Whores in Space during their trillion isk months.
And I experienced Immortality with Break-A-Wish and Pendulum of Doom.

What you are saying is extremely logical but "pvpers" in some of these alliances shy away from actual merc fights. Its more of a was to preserve the ego if anything. I remember when Whores in Space decced Break-A-Wish foundation because they were stopping our Jita activities. How do you think we felt, as a 400 person alliance, getting our **** pushed in by 5 guys? Do you think we enjoyed having our main source of income deleted for a week along with multi billion isk losses?

When a major dec like that is put in the defender has 3 options.
1. fight
2. get allies and fight
3. play inactive/uncatchable so the attacker moves on

You would think that some of these alliances would want to brush up on their skill every now and again but you're wrong. They would rather avoid the mess all together and offer right of passage, money, ships, and many other things.

This is where my corporation and others like it come in. After being in whores and keeping track of the scrubs that sucked I've acquired a very nice dec list. I monitor their activity because I know they just want to sit on a gate and recruit dozens more people just like them to join them. All I have to do is let their new corporation flourish for a little bit and then off to the fields I go ready to harvest some baddies.

Hell when I lead Whores in Space I wanted to dec Whores in Space.


Good. Five people kept four-hundred people in station when they showed up. Thanks for admitting that you are incompetent when faced with people who fire back and you can't adapt.

Break-A-Wish best be looking for contracts. I think if people read this crap you'll be inundated with ISKies from people looking for a job well done.

Leadership is something you learn. Maybe one day, you'll learn that.

Xolve
State War Academy
Caldari State
#39 - 2013-12-02 17:33:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Xolve
Zeus Maximo wrote:
You would think that some of these alliances would want to brush up on their skill every now and again but you're wrong. They would rather avoid the mess all together and offer right of passage, money, ships, and many other things.


That was pretty much my entire talking point in a nutshell- I was comparing the ideal vs. the reality of it all.

A fool and his ship are soon parted.


Anya Klibor wrote:
Good. Five people kept four-hundred people in station when they showed up. Thanks for admitting that you are incompetent when faced with people who fire back and you can't adapt.

Break-A-Wish best be looking for contracts. I think if people read this crap you'll be inundated with ISKies from people looking for a job well done.



Way to miss the point.
Anya Klibor
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2013-12-02 18:21:27 UTC
Xolve wrote:
Way to miss the point.


I didn't miss the point at all. I think it speaks volumes that groups like Marmite Collective, the former Wh0res in Space, and all the other larger mercenary groups dock up at the sight of people wiling to shoot back. The hunters become the hunted. I think that speaks volumes about the difference in the groups themselves. I said before that you only need numbers to deny trade hubs. You camp the Jita 4-4 undock, or Amarr and that's about it. The smaller groups hunt their targets and kill them when they feel safe.

There used to be a time when people would look past the kills-losses columns and look at the quality of the kills themselves. Marmite among others has really focused on drawing in lazy people who don't want to do that. I keep telling people to make their money work for them. If you want denial of trade hubs, then sure Marmite is the way to go. I honestly would rather my ISK went to people who will work to prove they are worth it.

I have no issues with Zeus, but I seriously believe he's showing the mentality that the larger organizations have concerning how to fight and the like.

Leadership is something you learn. Maybe one day, you'll learn that.