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Customer Support lifting previous restrictions regarding war decs

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Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#321 - 2011-11-18 12:52:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
n.b. a lot of people seem to talk about wardecs, as though the "greifers" were stealing real world assets from orphans. The reality, is they are all people playing a GAME. Stop with your ******* morality bullcrap.

EDIT: You've been playing the game longer than I have, and I am telling YOU to HTFU. What's wrong with this picture?

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#322 - 2011-11-18 16:19:30 UTC
I know what your misunderstanding is Ehnea, you don't understand "griefing" as defined by the devs... Here's the link:

"Grief Play"



Ehnea Mehk wrote:
That's not a war if you do not have a goal. It sounds very much like a griefer WARDEC method being used. Which is the heart of the problem to begin with and why people in highsec space resort to WARDEC shields and corp hopping. My proposal puts the WARDEC system back into the context for what it was meant for in the first place. To have a war.



CCP wrote:
Grief play
What is grief play?
Griefing
A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making others’ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way. Grief tactics are the mechanics a griefer will utilize to antagonize other players. At our discretion, players who are found to be consistently maliciously interfering with the game experience for others may receive a warning, temporary suspension or permanent banning of his account.

This should not be confused with standard conflict that might arise between two (or more) players, such as corporation wars. The EVE universe is a harsh universe largely driven by such conflict and notice must be taken of the fact that nonconsensual combat alone is not considered to be grief play per the above definition.

An example of grief play would be the so called "Can baiting" in starter systems. An experienced player drops a cargo container with some items in front of a station in a starter system and waits for a new player to take from it. The new player is flagged and promptly attacked and killed by the owner of the container. Doing the same in starter tutorial complexes is also considered grief play and will not be tolerated.

War'dec'ing, obviously (and explicitly) does *not* conform to the definition of "Griefing" as defined by CCP. The fact that the war-dec mechanics need to be looked at does NOT mean that war-decs are "griefing".

Extortion, execution, scamming and blowing **** up is *not* griefing, except in certain specific cases (baiting n00bs in starter or tutorial systems, scamming on the Character Bazaar, etc., etc.,).

Hope that helps,

Sincerely yours,

A former 'bear

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#323 - 2011-11-18 19:18:46 UTC
What Asuri said.

I copped my first wardec 3 weeks into the game. I was pretty excited and was ready for whatever it threw at me, even if this means losing hilariously. The rest of the corp decided the wardeccers were "greifers" - didn't log in for a week and ordered everyone to stay docked at all times. They greifed themselves, by letting their inability to play the game outside of their narrow field of interest cloud their activity.

I left the corp the next day and joined up with the wardeccers. Hell, I even gave them some useful intel :P

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Sadario
Know-Nothings
#324 - 2011-11-19 15:59:53 UTC
I will not take part in this "soften-the-****-up"-mentality. Just wanted to mention that...
Richard Hammond II
Doomheim
#325 - 2011-11-19 16:06:30 UTC
Quote:
A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making others’ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way.



sooooo Goons after they remove insurance?

ah good that we cleared that up

Goons; infiltration at its best - first bob... now ccp itself. They dont realize you guys dot take this as "just a game". Bring it down guys, we're rooting for you.
Rellik B00n
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#326 - 2011-11-19 17:29:17 UTC
no glue?
[Of a request for change ask: Who Benefits?](https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=199765)
Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#327 - 2011-11-19 18:17:22 UTC
Rurik Finnolfur wrote:
I'm sorry but these rules were in place to deter alliance hopping, we know the GMs with existing workloads would be unable to deal with it efficiently, but that fact that it was considered an exploit deterred people from doing it.

Players and player corporations should not be condoned for using meta game techniques to avoid in game combat. Which is exactly what you are doing.

You've no plan or method laid out for us to read and digest on how you intend to address it and the worse part is, you CLEARLY understand that the war dec mechanics are flawed, but it appears you've just rolled over and gone "well that's the way it's going to be till we can be bothered to look at it, oh and while were at it we'll lighten our ticket system a little"

It seems you've not thought this through at all, perhaps you should go back and read that dev blog posted the last time you stopped listening.


^^ This is worth repeating.
The entire thread is just being ignored by CCP. They're very quick to respond to the "easy" threads, but refuse to have anything to do with this thread. Not even a hint, nothing. It's lame, almost as-if no-one at CCP want's to get involved with this situation, they're all afraid of the crapfest this is causing.

COO - Bene Gesserit Chapterhouse  CEO - Sanctuary Pact Alliance
Vulpina Elaphe
Doomheim
#328 - 2011-11-19 18:17:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Vulpina Elaphe
To Asuri Kinnes, there is also such a thing as a griefer wardec, which is for extorting money:

Quote:
"Griefer war decs" refers to the practice of declaring a war, typically in high-security, against a party who is not your competitor in politics, regional control, industry, or anything else, and does not want the war. Such wars are often, but not always, declared with the intent to extort money from the victim for termination of the war. While they are sometimes used for actual griefing (ie, declared only for the malicious enjoyment of seeing the victim suffer), they can also be seen as a valid playstyle, and are used by many for simple isk-making and/or combat training.


On that point, Ehnea is correct when he says war declarations are being used as griefing.

I still think we should throw that mechanic out the window. It's hardly binding on both parties and the defensive corporation can avoid it easily, and this was even before the announcement was made about the restrictions. All he needs to do is make an alt and wait it out while the attacking corporation burns money.
Myxx
The Scope
#329 - 2011-11-19 18:19:49 UTC
Vulpina Elaphe wrote:
To Asuri Kinnes, there is also such a thing called a griefer wardec, which is for extorting money.

Quote:
"Griefer war decs" refers to the practice of declaring a war, typically in high-security, against a party who is not your competitor in politics, regional control, industry, or anything else, and does not want the war. Such wars are often, but not always, declared with the intent to extort money from the victim for termination of the war. While they are sometimes used for actual griefing (ie, declared only for the malicious enjoyment of seeing the victim suffer), they can also be seen as a valid playstyle, and are used by many for simple isk-making and/or combat training.


On that point, Ehnea is correct when he says war declarations are being used as griefing.

I still think we should throw that mechanic out the window. It's hardly binding on both parties and the defensive corporation can avoid it easily, and this was even before the announcement was made about the restrictions. All he needs to do is make an alt and wait it out while the attacking corporation burns money.




It isnt griefing though. Its sanctioned gameplay. HTFU.
Vulpina Elaphe
Doomheim
#330 - 2011-11-19 18:22:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Vulpina Elaphe
Myxx wrote:
Whine


Mad much?

Read the post next time before the shorthand: it even says "While they are sometimes used for actual griefing" in the description.
Handsome Hussein
#331 - 2011-11-19 18:26:17 UTC
This thread delivers...






















stupidity.

Leaves only the fresh scent of pine.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#332 - 2011-11-19 20:48:00 UTC
Richard Hammond II wrote:
Quote:
A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making others’ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way.
sooooo Goons after they remove insurance?

ah good that we cleared that up

They are increasing the value of oxygen isotopes on the market. They are profiting.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#333 - 2011-11-19 20:50:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Poetic Stanziel
Vulpina Elaphe wrote:
To Asuri Kinnes, there is also such a thing as a griefer wardec, which is for extorting money:

Quote:
"Griefer war decs" refers to the practice of declaring a war, typically in high-security, against a party who is not your competitor in politics, regional control, industry, or anything else, and does not want the war. Such wars are often, but not always, declared with the intent to extort money from the victim for termination of the war. While they are sometimes used for actual griefing (ie, declared only for the malicious enjoyment of seeing the victim suffer), they can also be seen as a valid playstyle, and are used by many for simple isk-making and/or combat training.


On that point, Ehnea is correct when he says war declarations are being used as griefing.

I still think we should throw that mechanic out the window. It's hardly binding on both parties and the defensive corporation can avoid it easily, and this was even before the announcement was made about the restrictions. All he needs to do is make an alt and wait it out while the attacking corporation burns money.

That is why "griefer war decs" is in quotes. It's not actual griefing. Some people incorrectly view it that way. As the quote states, it is a valid playstyle.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#334 - 2011-11-19 20:52:36 UTC
If you are concerned about wardecs, head to this thread and ask Seleene to get an answer out of CCP concerning the future of wardec mechanics.
ShipToaster
#335 - 2011-11-21 02:08:46 UTC
Any news on this topic?

.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#336 - 2011-11-21 11:16:52 UTC
So ... it was impossible to use war declarations as a tool to grief people?

Really?

Hmm ... all those people bragging how they destroyed corps and alliances for the "lulz" they must be making it all up.

I think this change is great. It gives people more control over their play experience and they don't have to sit in stations for weeks at a time or go play another game. Big smile

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#337 - 2011-11-21 11:36:08 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
So ... it was impossible to use war declarations as a tool to grief people?

Really?

Hmm ... all those people bragging how they destroyed corps and alliances for the "lulz" they must be making it all up.

I think this change is great. It gives people more control over their play experience and they don't have to sit in stations for weeks at a time or go play another game. Big smile



Destroying corps and alliances is the everyday business of EVE.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#338 - 2011-11-21 11:40:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Thorn Galen
I'm guilty of complaining about this as much as most other posters here.

The GM, however, is correct in what he has said.

I have sat back and have tried to come-up with a proper, functional solution to this problem. One that does not require policing by CCP. I am coming-up blank, I have no solution, no ideas which could be implemented in code.

Good grief, the mechanics of it are a nightmare! Sit back and try it, I dare you. Anyone out there with a viable, functional solution that can be coded ?

It's so easy for us to complain, it's way more difficult to find a working solution though. The current situation is horrible, but what to do ? Policing it actively with GM's is not a good answer, it apparently never worked properly anyway.

In the meantime I predict that suicide ganking will be on the increase, mainly due to the wardec mechanics not functioning.

Peace out.

COO - Bene Gesserit Chapterhouse  CEO - Sanctuary Pact Alliance
Ambassadeur Ur-Shulgi
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#339 - 2011-11-21 12:07:39 UTC
Gheng Kondur wrote:
I'm a noob, but still here and do not want hi sec to be 100% safe.

But I have seen many people start this game and leave as they see no way they can build to a level where they can start their own corps and build something without being hit by what are in effect hi sec griefers who would dec them. I've seen some try, get dec'd for no reason, and without the isk to hire mercenaries have no choice other than return to NPC corps or stop playing.

Not everybody wants to join established corps, not everybody wants to PVP, this is after all supposed to be a sandbox. Some see this as 'must be pvp' which would fail the sandbox description. I don't agree that EVE is a PVP game or there is no sandbox, but accept that EVE is a sandbox that does (and should) include PVP, whether with consent or not, so you live with that risk.

What we need is a dec system that removes the option for griefers who like to find and blast noobie corps simply as they can and it makes their killboards look good, yet allow for wars over game related goals, rather than just laughing at another noobie killed.

This doesn't get us there as any corp that can afford the shield could afford the mercenary corps, but something needs to change to allow new players to enter, build, grow and move out of high sec in ways other than simply becoming a drone in a massive alliance.


This is the main problem with the Wardec system. Also broken bounty system and broken fraction warfare... all these things need to get fixed.

As it is today, Wardecing is abused constantly to grief noobs. Unskilled pvpers dec 10-28 day character corps and shoot them like FIsh in a barrel. I personaly think its hurting the Population growth of the game and I think it needs to stop. I personaly feel that we have to change EvE from the griefer, exploit, botter paradise it has become. And taking away the Wardec system until we can get a fix might not be a bad idea. No more wardecs in highsec and Make scaming banable offence, as Im tired of the spam in the channels and all the wanna bee Guiding hand social club groupies... Scamming was fun when there were like 10-15% of the comunity doing it... But when the mayority wants to Scam and grief the game becomes Unplayaball.... SGs, Wardecs, and General griefing is hurting the Growth of the game... And I personaly think that even if we lose 50% of the current population (all the griefers and social rejects) EvE will grow with about 1/3 of the subs it has today.

Its not a good market decission by CCP to let the game play like it dose. So they have slowly made highsec safer and safer. Highsec will In the end be a safe zone. Evrything CCP has done since I started playing this game back in 2006 has been to make Highsec more profitable and much safer. Nobody whent flying around in there PODs back in the day. Now you see people POD traveling all day... What Im hoping for to be honest is that the mayority of the griefer comunity Gets tired of the game and quits. Because we dont need them they are in the way of progress and are access Fat that needs to get trimmed off.
Halcyon Ingenium
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#340 - 2011-11-21 12:16:43 UTC
Ambassadeur Ur-Shulgi wrote:
Things and stuff


Look, another person that doesn't know what a "sandbox" game is.

If you want to be around people that play the game you're playing in the same way you play it, find a theme park MMO. I think you would be much happier.

By the way, since we're already talking, do you want to buy a rifter? I've got the cheapest rifters in Metropolis. If you can find a cheaper rifter, buy it!