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Battleships???
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Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#181 - 2013-12-02 12:25:32 UTC
Roime wrote:
Every single solo battleship I've seen in Black Rise has died a slow, humiliating death to a bunch of assorted small T1 ships, I'd never even consider undocking a solo BS in lowsec simply for the reason it being a 100% certain one-way trip without a single kill. Even Santo's smartbombing Panther died eventually.

It's just as stupid as soloing in a capital ship.

And the reason? You can't force a fight. Which means you are always fighting on their terms, aka lost before the engagement even started.

Properly supported BS fleets are cool and a sure way to get to fight SNUFF. Which is pretty much the only good thing about battleships in general- there's no "if", it's "when" they drop so you don't have to muck around looking for fights, fight comes to you.

The actual pvp part with BSes is boring and slow as ****, so generally people opt for something that requires more than F1 and broadcasting for reps.




sup
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#182 - 2013-12-02 12:26:11 UTC
Adamski flipflop wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I think everyone that thinks Battleships are fine should take one out for a solo roam. You will start to understand just how poorly they perform.

.


I mean CCP have said a few times that theyre going to re-balance T3s so they have 1 "role" so I dont think battleships being able to do everything is high on their priority list.

Where did they ever say they wanted T3 to have one role...

Riotgirl, that first vid you linked, PvP ASB Rokh vs 2 carebear battleships. Second one has the guy dying, I think its pretty telling if you watch him trying to shoot the HAC the whole fight

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#183 - 2013-12-02 12:26:17 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Roime wrote:
Every single solo battleship I've seen in Black Rise has died a slow, humiliating death to a bunch of assorted small T1 ships, I'd never even consider undocking a solo BS in lowsec simply for the reason it being a 100% certain one-way trip without a single kill. Even Santo's smartbombing Panther died eventually.

It's just as stupid as soloing in a capital ship.

And the reason? You can't force a fight. Which means you are always fighting on their terms, aka lost before the engagement even started.

Properly supported BS fleets are cool and a sure way to get to fight SNUFF. Which is pretty much the only good thing about battleships in general- there's no "if", it's "when" they drop so you don't have to muck around looking for fights, fight comes to you.

The actual pvp part with BSes is boring and slow as ****, so generally people opt for something that requires more than F1 and broadcasting for reps.

sup

Assign drones, and broadcast for reps.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Treborr MintingtonJr
S.N.O.T
S.N.O.T.
#184 - 2013-12-02 12:29:44 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
what elite pvp machariels

The day i learnt about transversal velocity:

https://zkillboard.com/detail/32988150/
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#185 - 2013-12-02 13:17:58 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Adamski flipflop wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I think everyone that thinks Battleships are fine should take one out for a solo roam. You will start to understand just how poorly they perform.

.


I mean CCP have said a few times that theyre going to re-balance T3s so they have 1 "role" so I dont think battleships being able to do everything is high on their priority list.

Where did they ever say they wanted T3 to have one role...



We know that they are no longer going to be sporting battleship class tanks and firepower.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#186 - 2013-12-02 13:59:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
I haven't read most of this thread, but I get the gist that some people think you should be able to "solo" in a battleship? I don't know why some folks think everything in this mmo must be balanced around their unwillingness or inability to make friends (even imaginary friends called alts), but imo that's just recklessly selfish. Battleships are group/team/fleet ships, you want to solo go find something that has the word "cruiser" in it.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#187 - 2013-12-02 14:33:53 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
I haven't read most of this thread, but I get the gist that some peopel think you should be able to "solo" in a battleship? I don't know why some folks think everything in this mmo must be balanced around their unwillingness or inability to make friends (even imaginary friends called alts), but imo that's just recklessly selfish. Battleships are group/team/fleet ships, you want to solo go find something that has the word "cruiser" in it.

You don't know why because you don't think.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#188 - 2013-12-02 14:43:37 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
I haven't read most of this thread, but I get the gist that some peopel think you should be able to "solo" in a battleship? I don't know why some folks think everything in this mmo must be balanced around their unwillingness or inability to make friends (even imaginary friends called alts), but imo that's just recklessly selfish. Battleships are group/team/fleet ships, you want to solo go find something that has the word "cruiser" in it.

You don't know why because you don't think.


lulz, somewhere there is a pot sitting by a kettle that's trying to divide by zero.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#189 - 2013-12-02 16:51:03 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I think everyone that thinks Battleships are fine should take one out for a solo roam. You will start to understand just how poorly they perform.

Saying that a T1 battleship was designed only as a fleet ship is nonsense. Battleships were once very good for soloing. They never became the one and only ship to use, but they were an option. CCP has said they'd like to see ships have diverse roles however they continue to allow battleships only a niche role (disposable cheap insured fleet peon) that is easily filled by other classes of ships if necessary.

I doubt there is any role in EVE that requires a T1 battleship, or any role where a T1 battleship is best disregarding cost.

Frigates have a proper role and also ancillary roles, destroyers have roles and also diverse roles, cruisers have many roles, battle cruisers can perform the role of a battleship, tank and spank and also other diverse roles including soloing.


T1 Battleships on the other hand don't have a primary role, nor do they excel, nor are they useful overly in diverse roles. All they are really good at is shooting red crosses in L4's and safe nullsec anoms.

One of my main annoyances with battleships is their scan resolution:

Look at the following Gallante line of ships:


Thorax - 350mm
Brutix - 250mm
Megathron - 118mm

Looks pretty normal, right?

Now look at it with a sensor booster:

Thorax with sensor booster II - Scan Res Script - 350 to 560 (+210)
Brutix with Sensor booster II - Scan Res Script - 250 to 400 (+150) 50mm more than a Thorax.
Megathron with Sensor booster II - Scan Res Script - 118 to 190 (+82) with 2 sebos it gets 39mm more than a Brutix with no sebo. So 60mm less than a Brutix.

Lets look at it with cloaks:

Brutix with Improved Cloak II - 150mm
Megathron with no cloak - 118mm
Megathron with Improved Cloak II - 78mm

Brutix with a cloak locks faster than a megathron with no cloak and only 40mm slower than a Megathron with a sebo with scan script.

Its ridiculous to nerf the lock as much as it has been. 45 seconds to lock a frigate is stupid, especially after a 30 second cloak delay. There should at least be some sort of reasonable cap, perhaps 20 sec cap on lock times. That's plenty of time to warp out.



Per usual, your standard myopic view of ...well everything.

Battleships aren't a solo machine, less so now than since sig radius and explosion velocity were added. Battleships are to slow for solo work, they HAVE been for a long time. This shouldn't be a surprise. Now they are across the board also to slow for gang work, fleet warp won't catch a cold, solo warp and the battleship will likely not make it to a fight. Previous to this patch you could get the aligns down enough to run with most battlecruiser gangs.

Now its hopeless.

So Battleships are pigeon holed into hot drops and bg fleet engagements, they simply aren't fast enough for anything else really.
Beardon
CRIME CRIME
#190 - 2013-12-02 18:03:52 UTC
Here we have another case of an unwilling listener. The OP doesn't care about battleships, the OP cares about solo megathrons. People have given great advice about other BS's which fill the desired role, but OP doesn't care, because mega. Part of the entire re-balance effort was to diversify ships into roles, and when one (the mega) doesn't get put in the box you want, we have a case of tears.

It's not any new ground breaking thing that solo work in eve is remarkably difficult, and honestly, expecting a ship to perform well in an area (black rise) dominated by a counter to that ship (frigate blobs) is pretty stupid. You want to find success, you gotta take it to the right places. Wandering in to FW where people salivate over the thought of a BS kill is your biggest mistake, imo. All you're gunna find here is either small ships that you can't catch, blobs of small ships that will rip you in half, or worse, the Militiamen taking the rare opportunity (in FW at least) to hop in their shiny ships and blob you very quickly. Every time we get intel of some idiot in a solo BS (or really any camp) trying to camp the Onnamon / Kinakka gate our alliance sees some of the quickest form ups for fleets ever.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#191 - 2013-12-02 18:04:19 UTC
Onictus wrote:



Per usual, your standard myopic view of ...well everything.

Battleships aren't a solo machine, less so now than since sig radius and explosion velocity were added. Battleships are to slow for solo work, they HAVE been for a long time. This shouldn't be a surprise. Now they are across the board also to slow for gang work, fleet warp won't catch a cold, solo warp and the battleship will likely not make it to a fight. Previous to this patch you could get the aligns down enough to run with most battlecruiser gangs.

Now its hopeless.

So Battleships are pigeon holed into hot drops and bg fleet engagements, they simply aren't fast enough for anything else really.


You can get most BS to warp as fast as an assault frigate (got a raven to warp a little faster) and still be effective in combat.
Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
#192 - 2013-12-02 21:13:33 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
I don't remember their names, you can just search google for solo [insert batleship name].

So you just made that up?


I really doubt he just pulled that out of his ass...is it so far outside the realm of possibilities to you that some folks just don't care about K/B's and they just want to pew and BS's are their favorite tools to do so? Some men just want to see the world burn regardless if they come out ahead or not. In some circles its called 'fun'.

Oderint Dum Metuant
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#193 - 2013-12-02 21:31:48 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Onictus wrote:



Per usual, your standard myopic view of ...well everything.

Battleships aren't a solo machine, less so now than since sig radius and explosion velocity were added. Battleships are to slow for solo work, they HAVE been for a long time. This shouldn't be a surprise. Now they are across the board also to slow for gang work, fleet warp won't catch a cold, solo warp and the battleship will likely not make it to a fight. Previous to this patch you could get the aligns down enough to run with most battlecruiser gangs.

Now its hopeless.

So Battleships are pigeon holed into hot drops and bg fleet engagements, they simply aren't fast enough for anything else really.


You can get most BS to warp as fast as an assault frigate (got a raven to warp a little faster) and still be effective in combat.





Sure, I could, now barring double nanos (which I used to with pests) and/or Nomad sets, its rather hard to accomplish with what I would consider a viable build.

Can I? Sure.

However, its just as easy for me to fly the HAC/BC/whatever that the gang is built around, I'm not that emotionally invested in Battleships, I fly them all of the time, but I won't try to fit a square peg in a round hole.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#194 - 2013-12-03 07:02:29 UTC
Getting a BS to warp as fast as a HAC is rather easy.

Last night a few of us BATs sat down and came up with a few solo raven fits.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#195 - 2013-12-03 09:04:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
I don't see what the 'resistance' to battleships having some ability to solo is about?

If you think about EVE there are really no such thing as battleships, battlecruisers, etc etc. There are only dots in space that have the ability to do things, like fire 8 blasters or get into warp in less then 3 secs.

Battleships are just another dot. If you think about it they're quite a lot less dangerous than some of the other ships out there. In terms of survivability, you have much more chance of surviving an attack in a cruiser, from a battleship than you do from a HAC.

In terms of defeating an opponent, you have much more chance of catching and killing the same cruiser in another cruiser, than you do in trying to catch that cruiser in a battleship.

In terms of damage application, unless you fit for specific targets, which gimps your ability vs other targets, you have much more chance of applying all your damage in a battlecruiser than you do in a battleship.

I've attacked battleships in T3's with full shields and not hit armor before they popped, and I was armor tanked, vs battleships. There are a few exceptions, but they're more specialized ships, such as nuet domis, but that's only because they can field non battleship weapons and have a full rack of highs for utility.

Adjusting mobility so they're able to keep up with a fleet, adjusting lock times so they're not fitting 2 sebos to get 30mm more lock times than an un-sebo'ed BC, adding extra drone bay space would not make them OP, they'd would still have all the negative qualities that allow smaller ships to kill them.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#196 - 2013-12-03 09:18:45 UTC
Its called balance. If it was easy to kill everything else then everyone would just fly battleships.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#197 - 2013-12-03 09:25:22 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Its called balance. If it was easy to kill everything else then everyone would just fly battleships.


But, but, teh solo playerz!

Nah, I'm just kidding, I understand game balance.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#198 - 2013-12-03 11:06:36 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I don't see what the 'resistance' to battleships having some ability to solo is about?

If you think about EVE there are really no such thing as battleships, battlecruisers, etc etc. There are only dots in space that have the ability to do things, like fire 8 blasters or get into warp in less then 3 secs.

Battleships are just another dot. If you think about it they're quite a lot less dangerous than some of the other ships out there. In terms of survivability, you have much more chance of surviving an attack in a cruiser, from a battleship than you do from a HAC.

In terms of defeating an opponent, you have much more chance of catching and killing the same cruiser in another cruiser, than you do in trying to catch that cruiser in a battleship.



I'm sure Admiral Lutjens would agree with you. Naval Game balance was terrible in the '40s. British cruisers were exploiting for sure.

Quote:

In terms of damage application, unless you fit for specific targets, which gimps your ability vs other targets, you have much more chance of applying all your damage in a battlecruiser than you do in a battleship.

I've attacked battleships in T3's with full shields and not hit armor before they popped, and I was armor tanked, vs battleships. There are a few exceptions, but they're more specialized ships, such as nuet domis, but that's only because they can field non battleship weapons and have a full rack of highs for utility.



Any PVP fit battleship will also kill a ratting fit battleship. If I was going to kill a missioning bs by stealing his stuffs or shooting his deployables till he aggressed, I'd probably use a hurricane. ie there is no ship balancing information in killing a ratting BS.

Quote:


Adjusting mobility so they're able to keep up with a fleet, adjusting lock times so they're not fitting 2 sebos to get 30mm more lock times than an un-sebo'ed BC, adding extra drone bay space would not make them OP, they'd would still have all the negative qualities that allow smaller ships to kill them.


If you make battleships have the mobility of a BC, and damage application of a BC, then there is no role for a BC.

Keno Skir
#199 - 2013-12-03 11:07:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Keno Skir
Infinity Ziona wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
"Support ships" is a concept IZ just can't quite grasp.

Not true I have my ISBoxer Stealth Bomber wing almost fully trained up now.


Weren't you just putting someone down for using a squad instead of going solo..? But you're ISBoxing bombers?

Ye mate.

EDIT : The whole game almost, uses Megathrons for fleet fights atm. If it was better to use Prots then that's what would be in service. Your argument has been repeatedly smashed and you have nothing to back it up aside from conjecture and bluffing.

"that massive lossmail on my killboard? i was winning that til their friends showed up.. so there..."

Black Lanterns Blog <- Read my ramblings -.-

250,000 Bonus SP when you start an Alpha Clone HERE <---
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#200 - 2013-12-03 11:35:35 UTC
I think the problem lies in the fact that there is no ballance between Speed/ Agility and Mass/Size
a lower mass will give you more speed and agility though a higher mass/engin strenght not related to be able to withstand Webbing and or disrupting.

though one would say that if mass makes my ship go slower in warp (to take the latest change) it would also be harder to move me out of my course. or harder to shut down the enormous warp cores, needed to get that ship in warp.


Looking at T1 ships only (not going in to T2 due to specialisation)


Why is my shuttle able to bump a battles ship out of alignment, and if it is why doesn't it get a scratch?

Why can my frigate shut down the warp core of a battleship with 5 times the core capacity?

Why does the webbing frigate slow down the Battleships instead of dragging the Frigate along?


in these 3 cases you should have a possitive effect from mass/size though EVE doesn't take this in account.

in my eyes they should start by making all e-war in different sizes like neuts and nossies. (bonuses to specialist T2 ships)

it would be even better is they took mass/capacitator/CPU/and Powergrid in account. this would also lead to a more natural ballance between Armor and shield in being Strong and slow to fast and more fragile.