Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I picked the Cruise Missiles as they are considered the BS-sized long-range weapons. Just like Railguns or Sentries are for Gallente ships.

I didn't use the RHMLs for the reason that it doesn't fire a large-sized ammunition. It fires a medium (cruiser) sized ammo. So in my opinion that would have made the comparison unfair to both the Hyperion and Domi. I can run the test again and I will edit this post with the result if that helps you feel any better.


However, the guns were blasters and are not effective unless within 30km. So that would have no effect over the majority of the range for that DPS curve. With the guns removed (as they were) and all skills at 5, the Sentries will still get above 900 DPS on a bonused hull like a Domi and with rigs. As I correctly cited from that test.
___________________________________________________________
Arthur as per your request: Same scenario as previous, rifter pilot is headed straight at attackers 100% of velocity

Target: Rifter MWD T2 fit, speed tanked
Attacker 1: Raven T2 RHML Precision Scourge
Attacker 2: Hyperion T2 425mm RG no-drones (FN Antimatter)
Attacker 3: Domi T2 Wardens no-turrets
*All DPS values are before resistances of shields and armor. DPS values do include the reload time

Results (@62.5 km):
Domi-Warden: ~572 DPS
Domi-Garde: 763
Domi-Warrior IIs: 201 dps
Hyperion: 388-DPS
Raven: 176-DPS

Domi is 3.25x with wardens than the Raven. Hyperion is 2.2x the Raven. Domi using Warrior IIs which can likely catch the rifter with 2-T2 navigation mods out damages the Raven by about 25 dps (throughout the Raven's range).

Results (@ 83.9km):
Domi-Warden: 572 DPS
Hyperion: 218 DPS
Raven: 0 DPS
Domi-Garde: 0 DPS

As you can see within the RHML-Raven's range the raven does the least amount of damage against a head-on attack. Outside that range the raven does zero, the domi is essentially unaffected.

Scenario-change: Max-transversal speed, same rifter

Results (@ 10km)
Domi-Warden: 0 DPS
Domi-Garde: 0 DPS
Domi-Warrior II: 201 dps
Hyperion-RG: 0 DPS
Hyperion-BL: 10 DPS
Raven-RHML: 175 DPS

Results (@ 44.4 km)
Domi-Warden: 0 dps
Domi-Garde: 49 dps
Domi-Warrior II: 201 dps
Hyp-RG: 0 dps
Hyp-BL: 0 dps
Raven-RHML: 176 dps

Results (@ 66.2 km)
Domi-Garde: 161 dps
Domi-Warrior II: 201 dps

Results (@ 79.9 km)
Domi-Garde: 64 dps
Domi-Warrior II: 201 dps

At close range the Warrior IIs will put out more damage per second than the Raven with RHMLs. It would likely require a few spare drones but the Domi will kill that Rifter far quicker than the Raven.

Regardless of ammunition, RHMLs are a battleship-class weapon.

Not exactly, because eventually the Incursus runs out of cap/aar charges. The old Caracal would burn him down at that time. The new Caracal with new launchers is reloading while the Incursus safely reloads his charges/gets his tank back up to 100%.

The whole point is that the Caracal cannot sustain dps as well anymore and that the burst tank of such a frig cannot necessarily be overcome with the new launchers. The Incursus reloads it's charges when the Caracal goes into 40sec reload and the whole fight is ridiculously prolonged which is very bad news for the Cruiser which is tackled.

The Caracal is now *more* vulnerable to any/all "friends" when they arrive when it is in reload and cannot take some/any of them with it when it now goes down without being able to fire a shot.

*******************************************************

Anyways, this is all on paper and we all know that a lot can happen to affect this worst case scenario and that it requires ideal game play from the Incursus pilot and the presence of links etc. I happen to love my little OP Bait/Hero tackler Incursus that can survive remarkably long against any other Frig/Dessie/Cruiser until the rest of our gang arrives....and I believe the game is really fun with such tacklers. I just think a dedicated frig killing Cruiser regardless of race should be able to get them down in a reasonable time frame at least on paper, which will equal most of the time in real fights.

These changes to RLML make the Caracal far more vulnerable that it was before. It remains to be seen just how big a nerf to the Caracal this will turn out to be.

*Sorry for the double post!

Fits were pretty simple:

Domi:

3-DAIIs in lows
2-OTL IIs in mids for sentries (1 OTLII and 2 Nav for warriors)
No-damage or Drone rigs

Hyperion:
2-TCIIs in mids with tracking scripts
1 Large-Hybrid Calefaction Rig

Raven:
3 BCS
1-Web II
1-TP
3-Large Rigor Rigs (2-Rigor + 1-Flare no significant change, 1-Rigor + 2-Flare, no significant change).

I used to think this. Then I realised that the on-gri/off-grid thing was just a smokescreen and the magnitude of the bonuses meant they'd be overpowered as a module affecting only one ship, let alone the entire fleet. I mean, an ODI gives 12.5% speed to a single ship, while a link gives 30%. You can pay 100-odd mill for RF point to give a single ship 25% more point range - or just use a 2 mill link to give it to your entire fleet. Insanity. No wonder they're ubiquitous.

Now I have covered both the extremes. As you can tell from the numbers the Raven is completely worthless (RHML-fitted or not) against a common tackling frigate. In addition, at range the other ships (which just happen to be gallente) are all doing well. Except for that the guns have some tracking problems at close ranges on transversal targets. Which is easily corrected by making use of the Gallente's cultural weapon known as the Drone.

Even if the Domi or Hyperion lose a few drones they have replacements that the Raven does not. If we assume that the rifter pilot is competent enough to shoot the drones. Also please remember that Caldari ships have extremely small drone bays/bandwidth compared to everyone else's ships. Kinda strange given their 'historical' cooperation with the drone-loving Gallente.

Back on topic, we are still looking at what amounts to pretty crappy dps in an ideal situation for the CMs and HMs. The issue that I raised a few pages back still stands. Furthermore, having some pitiful capability to hit things in a complete rapping situation doesn't make up for horrendous performance the other 99% of the time. I would rather have decent performance '99%' of the time in exchange for equal suckiness to turrets in the latter scenario.
_________________

http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Missile_Damage

^There is the damage applied equation if you don't have it memorized. As far as I can tell the equation and information on that page has not be updated for the release of Rubicon or Odyssey.

EDIT: This actually gave me an idea. CCP could adjust those DRF values for the missiles. It might do something to help with the terrible damage-application. Or the equation could be altered as I said before to compare the missile velocity to the target velocity + keep the explosion radius to sig-radius of target.

Anyway, I am off to mess around on SiSi...

If we use the same target with 5 T2 RLML fitted Caracal (Scourge)

The Caracal according to EFT will do 129 DPS (including reload) out to 44 km. 129 DPS overall will not be enough to break the tank of most frigates. For comparison, a HML-TP Drake will do 78 dps. Drake T2 HML-Dual TP will do 91 dps. Finally a split Caracal with 2 RLML and 3HML will deal 81 dps.

Because Battleships are the intended recipients of the new RHML. Furthermore, Arthur, you were the one that asked about the effectiveness of the RHML in terms of a DPS graph. If you need a reminder I can quote your remark.

True! I wanted a benchmark for my own uses that didn't depend on the changes from Rubicon. It also gave a good comparison point for evaluating the RHML module compared to alternatives. At least I will say that I was not impressed.

Really, all CCP Rise *cough*, I mean CCP 40sec did by choosing the 40-sec reload mechanic was hurt missile users. He took a subpar weapon system, gave it an absurdly small clip, high rof and a draconian reload-timer. So yes, it does a great job of burst DPS that he intended when it is firing. However, you then get to spend as long or longer waiting for it to reload. Not a very good game-mechanic especially when rapids are the only type that does it.

Looking at the DPS Graphs and running SiSi tests really only reinforced my own opinion that Rapids are rubbish. Especially as they are with this expansion. As others have stated, it would have been much better to make it a new type of launcher called "Swarm ***** Missile Launcher". In addition, he could have also tweaked the LM precision missiles by 5%. In short, that would have been a better option. It would have added his burst weapon, left the old one modified and addressed the comparatively OP stats of precision LMs. Therefore, the metrics gathered would actually be an accurate indication which was the preferred system, letting the players decide.

Cause let's all be realistic and pragmatic the changes in Rubicon definitely didn't help revitalize small-gang or solo PvP. Sure it made Inty's insanely better than before. It also completely gimped any caldari pilot for the 3rd or 4th time. Seriously what is with CCP's vendetta with Caldari ships. If it is because they claim server load from missiles, fix the damn mechanics to be simpler and readjust in incremental amounts (5-10%). There is a right and a wrong way to approach things and CCP and especially Mr. 40sec has consistently done it badly with respect to modules.

CCP Rise and Fozzie should be kept on ship rebalancing. But not allowed to do anything to the weapon systems or the other modules. I mean seriously, "It works and is cool in War Thunder, should mean it works and and cool in EVE" - CCP Rise. That is the biggest load of bullshit that I have ever heard from any Dev in what a decade-plus of gaming. Two seconds of critical thought should have squashed that ridiculous and mentally-deranged concept into oblivion. But oh well, what can I say...

CCP, this session will be $500 US. I will accept a check or electronic transfer. ^_^ (no, I am only joking slightly)

RIP RLML.
RIP RHML.

I really (really) tried, but these new missile systems are completely pointless outside of blobs. If anything, they give blobs an advantage by allowing them to boost initial DPS. If we want to eliminate solo play, this is the surest way to do it. I had three brief engagements today vs. a Loki, a Proteus and a mixed fleet (I had equipped full RLMLs in the hopes I'd happen upon a frigate, but we play the cards we're given…)

In the first engagement with the Loki, he managed to get a point on me with an overheated warp disruptor, so I decided to use my MWD to keep him out of weapons range. I was only able to knock his shields down about 20% before exhausting my supply of RLMLs, whereby the 40-second "reload of death" kicked in. We were both overheating our MWDs and traveling in a straight pursuit path, but as he was overheating both his MWD and disruptor - he wasn't able to keep pace and had to drop back. This gave me a window of opportunity to get clear of his point and warp to out (I clearly wasn't going to make any progress).

In the second, I was able to keep well clear of the Proteus and use the range advantage of the RLMLs to hit him. Damage was negligible, and as he couldn't get close to me (and I didn't stand a chance in a close-range battle) - we both disengaged.

The third engagement saw me jumped by several ships which immediately ECM'd me. With the additional sensor damps from the Federation NPCs, this basically shut me down so I loaded FoF missiles (it should be noted that this 40-second switch was rather nerve-racking, as several additional ships jumped in and joined pursuit). I couldn't lock anything, so I have no idea what if any damage I did (but I imagine it was practically non-existent since they continued pursuit). After exhausting a full volley and expecting even more reinforcements (local was lighting up like a Christmas tree), I aligned and got the heck out of dodge.
…..

So that's it for the grand experiment. The damage application with HMLs is practically non-existent, and the range advantage is easily mitigated with sensor dampeners. ECM shuts down target painters, leaving you with FoF missiles. If you have to resort to FoF missiles, you're dead already (you just don't realize it yet). RLMLs are pointless for all the aforementioned reasons and one more: their only saving grace was the fitting requirements, and now you run them at the expense of tank, too. RHMLs would be interesting if they knocked the power requirements down 5-fold, but again - "40 second death" awaits. So I'm left with HAMs, because they're the only missile system left. I lose range, gain fitting over HMLs (slightly over RLMLs), greatly increased damage application and massive sustained DPS boost (400-ish on a Covert configuration; around 600 or so non-Covert). Faction launchers also hold 75 rounds of ammunition, so even with a 2.25-second ROF - that's a lot of shooting.
…..

My proposal:
1. Reinstate RLMLs to pre-Rubicon specs.
2. Revise RHMLs to the first iteration (they're about as useful on battleships as a screen door right now).
3. Implement some adjustments to LMs, HAMs and HMs (see previous posts for specifics).
4. Implement a passive ballistic enhancement module, similar to the tracking enhancement module for guns.

1. Yes to modules, RLML & RLML Burst.

2. I like my screen door ( it has a shiny bell) but not RHML, any battleship losing half or all its DPS for 40secs at a time is just not usable, except maybe on SISI with friends where you can dictate what your going to fight. Real life EVE you need weapons that are versatile (not just on battleships but all ships)
Rattlesnake may work with RHML except Heavy Missiles have so much trouble hitting anything smaller than a cruiser and I'm not sure that the un-bonused 120DPS (precisions) is worth fitting them for.

3. Yes, don't mess up launchers when missiles are the perceived problem.

4. YES YES, give missiles options similar to other weapon systems.

5. Get rid of kinetic bonuses or change it to a mixed variable bonus. ie; 10% to kinetic, 5% to EM EXP Therm.

*** If we are to be stuck with the RLML as it is, change ROF bonuses on appropriate ships to damage bonuses. An ROF bonus on a weapon with such limited magazine capacity is no help at all. ( just means you have to spend 40 seconds reloading that much sooner)

Increase magazine sizes - RLML 25 - RHML 30