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Balancing Feedback: New Tech2 modules

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Author
Svennig
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#141 - 2011-11-18 21:09:15 UTC
Sigras wrote:
and giving it extra cap wouldnt make them overpowered? I think that would be worse than making their sphere of influence larger . . .


This is an interesting point, but I'd rather go up against a ship that can rep a LOT within an area I can get out of (relying on my ability to dictate range) than a ship that can rep a large amount within a huge area I'm going to have more trouble avoiding.


Sigras
Conglomo
#142 - 2011-11-18 23:12:47 UTC
one bombing run will only kill them all if theyre lucky enough to catch them all traveling between targets . . . when they're not MWDing theyre actually quite small.
Zarak1 Kenpach1
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#143 - 2011-11-19 04:35:57 UTC
57km radius is a huge volume of space covered by massive reps as it is. decreasing the cap use of RR's in triage would be a significant increase in capability but, it would not be overpowered. the gangs backed up by triage are still fairly limited in their offensive capacity because that rep radius is not changing but once every 6-7 minutes or so ( i say 6-7 minutes because at best a carrier could go in and out of triage in 5 and with webs be moved about the field via warp ins)
the gang backed up by logi's however can move around a much larger area on grid and rep a larger area on said grid and never have to worry about moving out of rep range (assuming the logis and dps dealers arent derp)

that being said. range would give the group too many possibilities offensively while cap would simply allow for longer straight up brawl. a couple of dreads or enough sub caps are still going to overwhelm the local tank
Lek Arthie
Doomheim
#144 - 2011-11-20 05:21:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Lek Arthie
I think a little more bonus for T2 gang links would be nice. Training max leadership is not easy. Maybe 3% instead of 2,5%.
Atm its just a 5% difference from the T1 module... Not that much. T2 siege module gets 20% bonus damage...
For example speed boosting a vaga with T1 module max skills brings it to around around 3600m/s, with T2 it goes around 3800m/s...
Crucis Cassiopeiae
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#145 - 2011-11-20 14:02:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Crucis Cassiopeiae
Tanex Gulder wrote:
Cmon CCP an increase of 0.5% command bonus for across the board for T2 Gang Assist Modules.

This should be looked at as the base command bonus of T1 gang modules varies from 2% to 4.5% and the T2 bonus needs to reflect 25% increaase across the board.

Also inventong the T2 Modules will be very expensive as BPC copy time is over 4 hours per single copy.
This will make it only practical to invent single run T2 copies and will make them expensive.

As an example you get less than a 1km range increase using the T2 Mining Laaser Field Enhancemnet Module which is pretty poor, so will it be worth the invention cost?

These issues applies to :
Information Warfare Link - Sensor Integrity base Bonus of 3%
Mining Foreman Link - Mining Laser Field Enhancement base Bonus of 4.5%
Skirmish Warfare Link - Interdiction Manuvers base bonus of 3%

CCP Please readdress these issues.



yea...
give a little love to miners here at least... please... Attention
Boost T2 gang links for miners...

Vote Issler Dainze for CSM7! http://community.eveonline.com/council/voting/Vote.asp?c=470 

Avila Cracko
#146 - 2011-11-20 16:49:02 UTC
Crucis Cassiopeiae wrote:
Tanex Gulder wrote:
Cmon CCP an increase of 0.5% command bonus for across the board for T2 Gang Assist Modules.

This should be looked at as the base command bonus of T1 gang modules varies from 2% to 4.5% and the T2 bonus needs to reflect 25% increaase across the board.

Also inventong the T2 Modules will be very expensive as BPC copy time is over 4 hours per single copy.
This will make it only practical to invent single run T2 copies and will make them expensive.

As an example you get less than a 1km range increase using the T2 Mining Laaser Field Enhancemnet Module which is pretty poor, so will it be worth the invention cost?

These issues applies to :
Information Warfare Link - Sensor Integrity base Bonus of 3%
Mining Foreman Link - Mining Laser Field Enhancement base Bonus of 4.5%
Skirmish Warfare Link - Interdiction Manuvers base bonus of 3%

CCP Please readdress these issues.



yea...
give a little love to miners here at least... please... Attention
Boost T2 gang links for miners...


Yea...
fix this please...

and give a little love to miners...

truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Lek Arthie
Doomheim
#147 - 2011-11-20 18:01:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Lek Arthie
Not only mining links, have a look at all links... give some more love for T2 links. Not asking for imbalanced things, just a little bit so you can feel that you are getting T2 link boosts instead of T1. For example, vaga with T1 speed link, reaches ~3600m/s from ~2900m/s, a 700m/s inrease, it would nice if T2 module added another 400m/s, or maybe 350m/s.

Quote:
decreasing the cap use of RR's in triage would be a significant increase in capability but, it would not be overpowered.


Point is that T2 modules improve T1 versions. Adding cap reduction to T2 triage is something that the T1 doesn't offer, it contradicts with the whole T2 approach. It will make an entirely different module. Even if that is done, there should be caution not to become cap stable. RRing in triage should still be cap hungry and you should still have to watch out. Well you can make triage stable even today but that cripples the ship a little.
Btw cap reduction is almost exactly the same as giving rep amount bonus. Having the ability to rep more for less cap, means more reps. Short-term you might not notice difference, but long-term it does make a huge difference. And will also make the carrier way harder to kill as it can run its local reps more, maybe even fit 3 instead of 2. If its underpowered atm it should be fixed, but not make it overpowered... (like SCs).
On a side note they can reduce cycle time and fuel reqs for T2 triage, and thats something that wont make it overpowered but also make triage more flexible in its use.
Range bonus is also a possibility, 57km is not enough in every fight. Not every fight is done by blobing around the carrier. Some fights, especially big ones, are done moving and a stationary carrier will become obsolete soon. Increasing your effective range is not bad.
Zarak1 Kenpach1
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#148 - 2011-11-20 20:42:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarak1 Kenpach1
you contradict yourself. you say t2 is supposed to merely improve upon t1 yet, you still want a range bonus added to a t2 module that does not exist on its t1 counterpart.

that little tidbit aside, we use these ships in triage mode almost daily and if the range was increased, it would be a very bad thing for everyone else in wormhole space against us. we could warp our carrier in at 100 and have mid range vessels with factions points holding you down 70km from that carrier andyou wouldnt be able to do a damn thing about it.

as funny as that sounds. it would get boring very very quickly because it would be very OP.

i dont have a problem with t2 modules having a bonus that t1 does not but rep range is not the answer.

also, most triage carriers used in brawls are being used in wormhole space and i can tell you that most of them are being used in a cap stable form. so, more cap stability is not analogous to rep ammount, we are all already repping the max ammount possible all the time (until the baahlgorns get there)

I respect what you are trying to say but, the practical knowledge AHARM has accumulated on the subject is probably close to the most comprehensive in EvE. Also, if you can figure out how to scrounge up the fitting for the 3rd local you mention for an archon or any other armor carrier, let us know. Blink
Svennig
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#149 - 2011-11-20 21:07:56 UTC
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:
you contradict yourself. you say t2 is supposed to merely improve upon t1 yet, you still want a range
also, most triage carriers used in brawls are being used in wormhole space and i can tell you that most of them are being used in a cap stable form. so, more cap stability is not analogous to rep ammount, we are all already repping the max ammount possible all the time (until the baahlgorns get there)


Well, it's not surprising that you're cap stable when you're spending this much on fits:

[Archon, Robert Hudson's Archon]
Capital Inefficient Armor Repair Unit
Capital Inefficient Armor Repair Unit
Centum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Tairei's Modified Capacitor Power Relay
Tairei's Modified Capacitor Power Relay
Tairei's Modified Capacitor Power Relay
Tairei's Modified Capacitor Power Relay

True Sansha Cap Recharger
True Sansha Cap Recharger
True Sansha Cap Recharger
True Sansha Cap Recharger

Capital Murky Energy Transmitter I
Capital Coaxial Regenerative Projector
Capital Coaxial Regenerative Projector
Capital Coaxial Regenerative Projector
Triage Module I

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit II

+ (presumably, as it's not stable without them as you claim) strong mindflood, cc4+, cr4+.

The T2 triage with cap usage bonus would allow you to get closer to cap stability on T2 fits, or cap-stable on much much much cheaper fits. Fuckit, you could take the fit above and swap a Tairei's for another A-Type EANM, which will give another ~10% boost to all resists. Sure, it's not a third repper, but good luck with that.
Zarak1 Kenpach1
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#150 - 2011-11-20 21:22:35 UTC
yeah, our average fit is about 12 bil cheaper and still stable. that was our ceo's pimp fit one.
Lek Arthie
Doomheim
#151 - 2011-11-20 23:39:03 UTC
Well then range is out of the picture also i guess. Blink
Looks like the only thing that remains is either rep amount bonus which CCP they dont want, or changes to cycle time and fuel amount. Does it worth the training having a cycle time bonus?

You might be using triage carriers a lot in wormholes but you are using them in a very specific way. You repairing BSs and you counter them with bhaalgorns and you are using only archons. We are talking here not only about archons but also about other situations for example bhaalgorns are not always available. If the carrier has so much cap stability that can rep its mate then switch to local repping if it gets targeted then switch again to remote and all that with plenty of cap and with way better fit (since it will need less cap rechargers) then we have a problem here. Triage carrier atm cant be cap stable unless its crippled and has minimal tank capability. Paste me a fit with t2 modules for a triage carrier that has tank and is cap stable.
Dont get me wrong cap bonus might be good for T2 triage but it needs to be tested, it shouldn't make the carrier able to fit stronger tank or have infinite cap, able to fit 3 or more local reppers without problem.

Anyway i just dont want to see the SC story all over again and we end up with very difficult to kill triage carriers that are the next fotm.
Zarak1 Kenpach1
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#152 - 2011-11-20 23:45:44 UTC
the sc quandry will never happen with carriers for two reasons. 1) changes to aggro mechanics so, its there till its dead or the group gives up 2) carriers do not have a small towers worth of EHP.

with these two changes a SC or anything like it will never be able to just ride it out for 2 to 15 minutes depending on the situation ever again.
Lek Arthie
Doomheim
#153 - 2011-11-20 23:47:56 UTC
Quote:
(until the baahlgorns get there)


what happens if with T2 triage even bhaalgorns cant counter your triage?
Zarak1 Kenpach1
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#154 - 2011-11-20 23:52:04 UTC
i wish that could be achieved but , that will never happen. if i had to guess what ccp has in mind for cap reduction, the changes might make it so a baahl squad needs a minute or so more to cap out the carrier.

baahls are powerful tools in the battle for energy. typically one with talismans can do the trick and two is just hastening death. with aggro changes i doubt we'll need many more than two in a fleet at a time except on very special occasions.
Svennig
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#155 - 2011-11-21 07:53:51 UTC
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:
yeah, our average fit is about 12 bil cheaper and still stable. that was our ceo's pimp fit one.


Can you link this fit, for science? Cool
Elanor Vega
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#156 - 2011-11-21 08:35:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Elanor Vega
Avila Cracko wrote:
Crucis Cassiopeiae wrote:
Tanex Gulder wrote:
Cmon CCP an increase of 0.5% command bonus for across the board for T2 Gang Assist Modules.

This should be looked at as the base command bonus of T1 gang modules varies from 2% to 4.5% and the T2 bonus needs to reflect 25% increaase across the board.

Also inventong the T2 Modules will be very expensive as BPC copy time is over 4 hours per single copy.
This will make it only practical to invent single run T2 copies and will make them expensive.

As an example you get less than a 1km range increase using the T2 Mining Laaser Field Enhancemnet Module which is pretty poor, so will it be worth the invention cost?

These issues applies to :
Information Warfare Link - Sensor Integrity base Bonus of 3%
Mining Foreman Link - Mining Laser Field Enhancement base Bonus of 4.5%
Skirmish Warfare Link - Interdiction Manuvers base bonus of 3%

CCP Please readdress these issues.



yea...
give a little love to miners here at least... please... Attention
Boost T2 gang links for miners...


Yea...
fix this please...

and give a little love to miners...



+1000

Severian Carnifex wrote:
Yea... simple math...
T1 version of Mining Foreman Link - Mining Laser Field Enhancement have base boost of 4,5... when you add 0,5 thats 5... thats only around 10% increase...
T1 versions of other links have base value of 2 and 3... so when you add 0,5... thats increase of around 25% and 18%...

That link have the smallest increase...
and that's not fair...


just not fair...
+ miners need some love...
don't kill mining further...
Severian Carnifex
#157 - 2011-11-21 13:11:21 UTC
Elanor Vega wrote:
Avila Cracko wrote:
Crucis Cassiopeiae wrote:
Tanex Gulder wrote:
Cmon CCP an increase of 0.5% command bonus for across the board for T2 Gang Assist Modules.

This should be looked at as the base command bonus of T1 gang modules varies from 2% to 4.5% and the T2 bonus needs to reflect 25% increaase across the board.

Also inventong the T2 Modules will be very expensive as BPC copy time is over 4 hours per single copy.
This will make it only practical to invent single run T2 copies and will make them expensive.

As an example you get less than a 1km range increase using the T2 Mining Laaser Field Enhancemnet Module which is pretty poor, so will it be worth the invention cost?

These issues applies to :
Information Warfare Link - Sensor Integrity base Bonus of 3%
Mining Foreman Link - Mining Laser Field Enhancement base Bonus of 4.5%
Skirmish Warfare Link - Interdiction Manuvers base bonus of 3%

CCP Please readdress these issues.



yea...
give a little love to miners here at least... please... Attention
Boost T2 gang links for miners...


Yea...
fix this please...

and give a little love to miners...



+1000

Severian Carnifex wrote:
Yea... simple math...
T1 version of Mining Foreman Link - Mining Laser Field Enhancement have base boost of 4,5... when you add 0,5 thats 5... thats only around 10% increase...
T1 versions of other links have base value of 2 and 3... so when you add 0,5... thats increase of around 25% and 18%...

That link have the smallest increase...
and that's not fair...


just not fair...
+ miners need some love...
don't kill mining further...



Support!
Zarak1 Kenpach1
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#158 - 2011-11-21 13:23:58 UTC
Svennig wrote:
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:
yeah, our average fit is about 12 bil cheaper and still stable. that was our ceo's pimp fit one.


Can you link this fit, for science? Cool


meh, i tried to link it for you but, ccp doesnt like hyper links to kbs so much. you can find it on our kb under two steps losses however. not too hard to find it.
Charles Edisson
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#159 - 2011-11-21 17:57:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Charles Edisson
Lek Arthie wrote:
Not only mining links, have a look at all links... give some more love for T2 links. Not asking for imbalanced things, just a little bit so you can feel that you are getting T2 link boosts instead of T1. For example, vaga with T1 speed link, reaches ~3600m/s from ~2900m/s, a 700m/s inrease, it would nice if T2 module added another 400m/s, or maybe 350m/s.

Quote:
decreasing the cap use of RR's in triage would be a significant increase in capability but, it would not be overpowered.


Point is that T2 modules improve T1 versions. Adding cap reduction to T2 triage is something that the T1 doesn't offer, it contradicts with the whole T2 approach. It will make an entirely different module. Even if that is done, there should be caution not to become cap stable. RRing in triage should still be cap hungry and you should still have to watch out. Well you can make triage stable even today but that cripples the ship a little.
Btw cap reduction is almost exactly the same as giving rep amount bonus. Having the ability to rep more for less cap, means more reps. Short-term you might not notice difference, but long-term it does make a huge difference. And will also make the carrier way harder to kill as it can run its local reps more, maybe even fit 3 instead of 2. If its underpowered atm it should be fixed, but not make it overpowered... (like SCs).
On a side note they can reduce cycle time and fuel reqs for T2 triage, and thats something that wont make it overpowered but also make triage more flexible in its use.
Range bonus is also a possibility, 57km is not enough in every fight. Not every fight is done by blobing around the carrier. Some fights, especially big ones, are done moving and a stationary carrier will become obsolete soon. Increasing your effective range is not bad.



How about a repping increase for the T2 triage module but also an cap use increase. Make it a double edged sword, some pro but also a bit of a con on top of the fitting, which to be honest PG is never an issue on caps due to the fact there are so few capital sized modules.
bornaa
GRiD.
#160 - 2011-11-21 19:19:00 UTC
about that "T2 Mining Laser Field Enhancemnet Module"
I did a little math...
its giving 4% boost over T1 module Lol
that's funny, and that's not worth it at all Roll

with T1 link you have range of 23,8km, and with this T1 you get range of 24,7km
I don't see why you introduced this link at all Roll
[Yes, I'm an Amateur](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRa-69uBmIw&feature=relmfu)